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Bigfoot found??? - Page 7

post #181 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Gatie
I wrote it, I think I know what definition I intended to use.

You wrote the dictionary?

I just don't buy the concept that anyone researching Bigfoot or anything else you don't believe in is automatically a crackpot.

I'm not even sure what the big deal is. If Bigfoot exists, it is just a large ape in the woods, not much different than animals you can see in any zoo. Certainly much less exciting than beings from another planet who build a ship and traveled here.

The only really amazing thing (if Bigfoot actually exists) is that none have been captured or found dead.
post #182 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood
You wrote the dictionary?

I just don't buy the concept that anyone researching Bigfoot or anything else you don't believe in is automatically a crackpot.

I'm not even sure what the big deal is. If Bigfoot exists, it is just a large ape in the woods, not much different than animals you can see in any zoo. Certainly much less exciting than beings from another planet who build a ship and traveled here.

The only really amazing thing (if Bigfoot actually exists) is that none have been captured or found dead.

I wrote the sentence. And I didn't say people who believe it exists are crackpots, I said the people who believe they have "scientific" evidence which proves it exists are crackpots.
post #183 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

The Big Bang theory.

Nearly all of the scientific community supports this idea. Although it hasn't been proven, and can never be proven. It still stands as fact among most. Crackpots!



I believe in Bigfoot.
post #184 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan^H
The Big Bang theory.

Nearly all of the scientific community supports this idea. Although it hasn't been proven, and can never be proven. It still stands as fact among most. Crackpots!



I believe in Bigfoot.

Except that the big bang theory works as a basis for how we currently understand the universe to be working, and is supported by things like Einsteins relativity, is gaining additional support due to advances in telescopes, better understanding of the baffling things brought up by quantum physics... and if a breakthrough on the origin of the universe happens that completely disproves it, then it will be tossed away.

All Bigfoot has is word of mouth stories, the equivalent of "My friend saw an Ogopogo last summer, Ogopogo's are real!"

A bit different I think, but this whole debate has been naff for months now.
post #185 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell G
Except that the big bang theory works as a basis for how we currently understand the universe to be working, and is supported by things like Einsteins relativity, is gaining additional support due to advances in telescopes, better understanding of the baffling things brought up by quantum physics... and if a breakthrough on the origin of the universe happens that completely disproves it, then it will be tossed away.
Yes, but it's still just a bunch of people that believe in something that can't be proven. The universe is infinite. The fact that this one theory has such following must tell you something.

Is this debate over? Is this thread over?

There are more stars in the universe than grains of sand on the earth.
Wrap your mind around that.
post #186 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
I believe in Bigfoot.

Correction . . . you believe in the Bigfoot theory (and it ain't even a scientific theory).

Good luck with that.


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Yes, but it's still just a bunch of people that believe in something that can't be proven. The universe is infinite. The fact that this one theory has such following must tell you something.

No, the fact that this one theory has held up to real scientific scrutiny, including papers published in accredited science journals, tells me something. A bunch of scientists using the scientific method to test and restest, check and recheck, and define and refine a hypothesis; that's called a scientific theory.

Without the scientific method, you just have a bunch of people who believe in something; that's called faith. No different than religion. It's fine to believe, but please don't hold it against us who require verification.
post #187 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan^H
Yes, but it's still just a bunch of people that believe in something that can't be proven.
In ancient mythology, people made up a bunch of crap to explain nature. Apollo made the sun rise and set, Zeus chucked lightning bolts at us, etc. I'm amazed at the number of people who think that science works in exactly the same way, but is just more "intellectual" in the sense that flaming chariots have been replaced by great balls of fire in the sky.

Science is more than just mythology without the thundering gods.

The Big Bang theory (as all theories) started out as an explanation of an observed phenomenon (in this case, the expansion of the Universe), but thanks to Science, it's become a cornerstone of cosmology.

The reason for this isn't simply because enough people decided to believe in it, thereby giving the theory legs. The reason so many believe it is because it's actually been tested to a very large extent. The Big Bang theory isn't just a proposition that the Universe originated in an explosion. It's a rigorous mathematical model (with math far too hideous to go into here) that makes testable predictions.

The Big Bang theory, for instance, predicted the existence of several subatomic particles that were previously never heard of. Particle physicists looked for these particles, and they found them -- all but one, the Higgs Boson (which requires god-like levels of energy to find), and the folks at the LHC will look in earnest for that one when they can get the LHC going again.

The Big Bang theory also predicted that there would be a background radiation in the microwave frequencies that permeates space. This microwave background has also been found.

There are at least a dozen other predictions the Big Bang theory has made in its complex equations that have subsequently been tested and found to be true, and those are just the ones I can think of.

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The universe is infinite. The fact that this one theory has such following must tell you something.
I don't understand what you're getting at here, but if you're suggesting that the Big Bang theory hasn't been run through the Scientific Method ringer and that people believe in it simply as a matter of faith, then you don't know what you're talking about. Scientists "believe" in it because they've tested many predictions made by the theory and found them all to be true.

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There are more stars in the universe than grains of sand on the earth.
Wrap your mind around that.
Really? That's the one you're going with? That our minds are too small to comprehend the vastness of the Universe, so rejecting notions on the basis of scientific evidence would be closing our minds to all the wondrous possibilities of the Universe?

Is there anything I can say to compell you to adopt a more evidence-based view of reality?

Come to the Dark Side, Bryan. We have cookies.
post #188 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Similar to the background radiation predicted by the Big Bang Theory, I say the Big Foot Theory predicts a background aroma, due to the Big Poops being dropped by the Big Foots. I'll be tuning my radar nasalscopes on the Pacific Northwest very shortly.


PS - And as usual, BrianW explains it much better than me. Damn physicists. (*sigh*)
post #189 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Gatie
PS - And as usual, BrianW explains it much better than me.
Sorry, Jeff. That wasn't my intention. I started writing my post before yours appeared and had no idea you were even out of bed.
Quote:
Damn physicists. (*sigh*)
Well, not to brag, or anything, but I do, in fact, read true scientific, peer review journals like Popular Explosions and Dangerous Electronics on a regular basis. It was in a recent issue of the journal Cosmic Wonders and Amazing Stories that I got my information from. I think the article was called, "Big Bang Theory: Sounds Good, Don'tcha Think?". So, yeah, I've got it pretty together when it comes to all that science stuff.

P.S. If you've got the latest issue of Cosmic Wonders, don't order the X-Ray Specs advertised on the back cover. They're crap.
post #190 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Godwin's Law states that first person who calls someone a Nazi in an internet thread loses, and that the discussion is effectively over because reason has fled. There should be a similar law covering the moment in a discussion of science when someone who has no idea what the words "theory", "hypothesis" and "evidence" mean in science declares that something is "just a theory" - by which he means "a work of fiction that some people happen to believe."

Bigfoot is not a "theory". Bigfoot is, at best, a hypothesis. (I.e, a "guess" - and I'd dispute even that in scientific terms. See below.)

The U.S. National Academy of Sciences has a good, brief, definition of "hypothesis":

Quote:
Hypothesis:
A tentative explanation for an observation, phenomenon, or scientific problem that can be tested by further investigation. Scientific hypotheses must be posed in a form that allows them to be rejected.

In the case of "bigfoot" we start with the observable phenomena:

People have reported seeing strange animals and finding strange footprints in the forest. Many of them (as with "UFOs") have been easily demonstrated to be known animals, other objects entirely or deliberate hoaxes. (For example, if there is one " bigfoot" sighting in a forest on a given morning, but six brown bear sightings in the same area of the same forest, the most reasonable explanation is that the seventh person also saw a bear.) A small residue of sightings don't have immediate, obvious and provable explanations. These must be looked at on a case-by-case basis, but in general there are four possible explanations (hypotheses) for the physical evidence that people are finding in the forests:

1. The witnesses have simply failed to correctly identify an animal known to science or the footprint of such an animal. (People mistake one animal for another all the time - ask any dairy farmer during hunting season. People who nervous because of funny forest noise, under the influence of alcohol, or just not used to being in the woods are more apt to do so than others. And people who have gone into a forest with the preconceived idea of finding "Bigfoot" are the most like of all to "see" the creature - whether it is there or not. The size and shape of footprints can change radically due to weather and erosion.)

2. Misidentification of a non-animal or animal source. (Trees being mistaken for animals, eroded tire ruts being described as "footprints", for all of the same reasons mentioned for misidentifying animals above.)

3. Deliberate hoaxes.

4. A large animal, currently unknown to science, possibly a primate.

All of these hypotheses must now be tested, either experimentally or through logical reasoning or by some combination of the two. You cannot simply choose to believe one because you like it.

At this point you would look at the locations, examine statements from other people in the area, look for evidence of deliberate fakery, and examine the area for evidence of a new, strange beast in the area.

After dozens or hundreds of such cases you might be a in position to offer a coherent theory of "Strange forest sightings".

Quote:
Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature supported by facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena.

A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact. - United States Academy of Sciences


The first three hypotheses regarding "Unexplained Forest Sightings" would fit well into a general theory about the subject, and, in fact, would plausibly account for all such sightings. There is no "need" for a fourth hypothesis, because there is no scientific evidence of any phenonomenon that cannot be explained as one kind of mistake or another or as a hoax. The moment such evidence is produced, the "Theory of Sightings", being a scientific theory, could be expanded to include it. But, again, we're talking about DNA, skeletons, close-up, in focus photography or videography that stands up to rigorous scientific testing and which depicts a creature that cannot be a human or other animal in a suit, mechanical device, etc.

There is simply no reason, based on the current "evidence", to posit the existance of a living creature that frequents territory well-penetrated by modern humans, yet of which no living specimens have ever been caught, no clear and indisputable remains have ever been obtained and no clear and indisputable photographs have ever been taken. This is not a coelocanth, hiding in the deeps of the ocean in areas rarely fished until the time it was finally captured. It is alleged to be a creature that is frequently seen in areas routinely entered by well-educated people in industrialized countries, including people deliberately looking for "Bigfoot", yet none of them has ever come back with a single piece of evidence the stands up to genuine scientific scrutiny.

Finally Bigfoot actually fails the last test required even to rate as a hypothesis. It is "unfalsifible". Because it is generally very difficult to prove the non-existance of anything, ideas that are inherently unfalsifiable are genuinely considered as not subject to scientific analysis at all. You can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God through the scientific method, so (most) scientists and theologians rightly leave science out of that particular question.

But as an explanation for strange sightings and footprints, Bigfoot has the problem that we can't ever prove that none of them were caused by this hypothetical animal, no matter how many cases are explained as mistakes or hoaxes. We also can't prove (and neither can Bigfoot proponents) that they aren't caused by particularly ugly unicorns, or by Martians in very sophisticated Bigfoot suits who just like messing with us.

And because they can't be disproved (as the hoax, and mistake explanations can be in particular cases), we can't admit any of these notions to our list of hypotheses.

Regards,

Joe
post #191 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianW
P.S. If you've got the latest issue of Cosmic Wonders, don't order the X-Ray Specs advertised on the back cover. They're crap.

Don't worry, I know about the X-Ray specs. I did get sucked in by the "Gain 20 pounds of muscle" ad with the skinny kid getting sand kicked in his face. Those ad salesmen at Cosmic Wonders sure do know their demographics.
post #192 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Hey, I did say the Bigfoot "theory" wasn't a scientific theory. Does that still trigger "DeMartino's Law?"
post #193 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

It's great that we know so much about the Big Bang theory, but you do realize that in the end, Bryan^H is laughing at how much time is taken debating him?

I don't for a second believe that he's as fanatical in his bigfoot belief as we think he is, which is why this whole months long debate is ridiculous. And really, with all the in depth reasons that make it evident that there's a 99% chance that bigfoot doesn't exist, and for him to still throw out odd ball challenges instead of acknowledging it (acknowledge, not accept)... it shows he's unreasonable and further debate is pointless.

I'm waiting for another sighting of some sort before I return to this.
post #194 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Russell, I agree with everything you said, but I'd also add that it's all in good fun. I enjoy championing the causes of science and critical thinking whenever the opportunity arises.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell G
I'm waiting for another sighting of some sort before I return to this.
Would another hoax do just as well?
post #195 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

I think it should be noted that The Big Bang Theory is way funnier than anything I've ever seen about Bigfoot. (With the possible exception of the Six Million Dollar Man episode and the Venture Bros. parody of it.)

And nothing Bigfoot-related is as hot as Kaley Cuoco.

Finally Bryan should just thank his lucky stars that he hasn't been having this discussion with Sheldon - on a train!

Regards,

Joe

P.S.

"DeMartino's Law" - has a nice ring to it, don't it?
post #196 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???





The man has a point.
post #197 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

As mentioned in this thread - according to the scientific method and other observations, the big bang theory is widely accepted. Also parallel universe theories and "wormhole" space travel are also taken seriously. With the infinite size of the universe, life on other planets is a good probability. Evolution is what the PC scientific community embraces.

I say that an advanced species of "Bigfoot" evolved on another planet and has mastered intergalactic travel through wormholes. By chance they have to get off one wormhole and make a connection with another on earth. This is why there are only rare sightings and footprints left behind. They are just passing through and are here for only seconds at a time.

This theory can be "proved" using all the same data mentioned by both sides of the debate in this thread.
post #198 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Originally Posted by drobbins
As mentioned in this thread - according to the scientific method and other observations, the big bang theory is widely accepted. Also parallel universe theories and "wormhole" space travel are also taken seriously. With the infinite size of the universe, life on other planets is a good probability. Evolution is what the PC scientific community embraces.

I say that an advanced species of "Bigfoot" evolved on another planet and has mastered intergalactic travel through wormholes. By chance they have to get off one wormhole and make a connection with another on earth. This is why there are only rare sightings and footprints left behind. They are just passing through and are here for only seconds at a time.

This theory can be "proved" using all the same data mentioned by both sides of the debate in this thread.

Amusing. But not even close. If you wish, I can give you the reasons. But I really can't tell if you are serious, or just being funny; for discerning the difference between the two in this thread is almost impossible at this point.
post #199 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell G

I don't for a second believe that he's as fanatical in his bigfoot belief as we think he is, which is why this whole months long debate is ridiculous.
If I were a very wealthy man, I'd go on a year long trek in search of the man beast . I'd start in Nepal, and then on to Northern California, and Oregon. I'm not fanatical, but some of my friends think I'm strange
Quote:
And really, with all the in depth reasons that make it evident that there's a 99% chance that bigfoot doesn't exist, and for him to still throw out odd ball challenges instead of acknowledging it (acknowledge, not accept)... it shows he's unreasonable and further debate is pointless.
How dare you.
post #200 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianW

I don't understand what you're getting at here, but if you're suggesting that the Big Bang theory hasn't been run through the Scientific Method ringer and that people believe in it simply as a matter of faith, then you don't know what you're talking about. Scientists "believe" in it because they've tested many predictions made by the theory and found them all to be true.
Ok, maybe it is a poor analogy. But even with all of the scientific evidence, The big bang theory will always be just a theory...unless of course it's duplicated.

Quote:
Really? That's the one you're going with? That our minds are too small to comprehend the vastness of the Universe, so rejecting notions on the basis of scientific evidence would be closing our minds to all the wondrous possibilities of the Universe?
No I never said that. I just wanted to emphasize the wonderment of the universe.



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Come to the Dark Side, Bryan. We have cookies.
That's not true.....that's impossible!
post #201 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

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No I never said that. I just wanted to emphasize the wonderment of the universe.
Okay, fair enough. Wonderment of the Universe is something I can definitely get into. I'm sorry for mischaracterizing what you said.
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That's not true.....that's impossible!
If you don't come to the Dark Side, there is another. And get a haircut!
post #202 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Gatie
Amusing. But not even close. If you wish, I can give you the reasons. But I really can't tell if you are serious, or just being funny; for discerning the difference between the two in this thread is almost impossible at this point.
No not serious at all. I hope it was a little funny though. I don't think Bigfoot exists and I also take what all the "expert" scientists say with a grain of salt also. Just because a bunch of people get together and agree on something, back it up with expensive research equipment, develop charts and graphs, build educated theory on top of theory doesn't make me believe in it either. It also doesn't mean that I don't believe - It basically makes me say Hmmm and wait for facts and proof.
post #203 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Originally Posted by drobbins
No not serious at all. I hope it was a little funny though. I don't think Bigfoot exists and I also take what all the "expert" scientists say with a grain of salt also. Just because a bunch of people get together and agree on something, back it up with expensive research equipment, develop charts and graphs, build educated theory on top of theory doesn't make me believe in it either. It also doesn't mean that I don't believe - It basically makes me say Hmmm and wait for facts and proof.

Unless you have a time machine and can travel back to the singularity, I'm afraid "educated theory on top of educated theory" is all you've got in regards to the Big Bang, because the "facts" you seek ain't coming. But that's ok, because that's all the scientists have too. They just know how that theory was reached a whole lot better than most.
post #204 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russell G
It's great that we know so much about the Big Bang theory, but you do realize that in the end, Bryan^H is laughing at how much time is taken debating him?

Russel, why are you so bitter? Suddenly you have deemed this thread a sham. I'm not writing all this for my health, or to egg people on. I'm serious about the subject. If you feel this thread has gone dark, then fine. I also realize that the cons outweigh the pros concerning Bigfoot. I know it's improbable, but it is also plausible that it exists. This is what keeps me going. This is the spur.
post #205 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

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The big bang theory will always be just a theory...

"You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it means."

Regards,

Joe
post #206 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Gatie
Unless you have a time machine and can travel back to the singularity, I'm afraid "educated theory on top of educated theory" is all you've got in regards to the Big Bang, because the "facts" you seek ain't coming. But that's ok, because that's all the scientists have too. They just know how that theory was reached a whole lot better than most.

Bingo. Plus they had to make up the Big Bang since they didn't want to concede the possibility that "someone" created the universe.

It stuns me that anyone could think the Big Bang is more likely than the existence of an ape in the woods.
post #207 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood
Bingo. Plus they had to make up the Big Bang since they didn't want to concede the possibility that "someone" created the universe.

Well, that we now understand that the Earth is older then about 6000 years if your being generous, it kinda blew away that theory....
post #208 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Bingo. Plus they had to make up the Big Bang since they didn't want to concede the possibility that "someone" created the universe.
If you think that's why they made up the Big Bang theory, then you couldn't be more wrong. There's absolutely nothing about the Big Bang theory that precludes the existence of a creator.
Quote:
It stuns me that anyone could think the Big Bang is more likely than the existence of an ape in the woods.
And it stuns me that anyone could allow prejudice to prevail over evidence to such a degree that such a statement as that would even make sense.
post #209 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood
Bingo. Plus they had to make up the Big Bang since they didn't want to concede the possibility that "someone" created the universe.

It stuns me that anyone could think the Big Bang is more likely than the existence of an ape in the woods.

Please. Do not see my post as any sort of support for these types of statements. I in no way intended to disparage the Big Bang theory, and I in no way think the Big Bang is less likely than Bigfoot. I'm sorry, but it appears you have a ways to go before you understand enough about science to get the irony in my post.

PS - There are plenty of scentists who believe in a creator, and that belief does not discount the Big Bang, or any other scientific theory. One of them was named Einstein.
post #210 of 273

Re: Bigfoot found???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Gatie
PS - There are plenty of scentists who believe in a creator, and that belief does not discount the Big Bang, or any other scientific theory. One of them was named Einstein.

Einstein was mostly being polite though in talking about the science of "Gods Creation" and was often misquoted and had his statements on "God" and a Creator taken out of context. Later on, he stopped being so polite.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Einstein in 1954
It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.


So yeah, not so much a big believer of a Creator. I don't know though what he thought on Bigfoot.

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