Lost: Season 5 - Page 5

Re: Lost: Season 5

Ben didn't read the xerox that was posted buy the time travel wheel. It said "Please move the wheel to it's furthest position."

He only went half way. J/K

Re: Lost: Season 5

If it's the same compass, then maybe Richard/Batmanuel hasn't gone back to do any of the interaction with young Locke yet. I was wondering what he meant by never having met John yet.

Re: Frogurt and the other arrow fatalities, they can't have many red shirts left to go through. By the time the Oceanic 6 get back, most of the planes original passenger list will have been wiped out anyway.

I assume the kids and the stewardess have simply been integrated with the Others, perpetually fretting about how Ana Lucia is doing.

And they still haven't mentioned why Ben was infatuated with Juliette, though he seems to think she's expendable.

Re: Lost: Season 5

I could live without knowing exactly who the gun-wielding and burning arrow-slinging folks are. People have been showing up on, and probably fighting for control of that Island for a long time. We don't need an explanation for every single one of them.

Ethan is one cold dude. Damn. That encounter with Locke was a good reminder of the true nature of the Others, something that may have been lost when they got de-mystified in the last couple of seasons: an extremely dangerous fanatical religious cult.

That may be why Locke presumably fails as their leader, he values human life.

Of course a sociopath like Ben was right at home there.

--
H

Re: Lost: Season 5

Sort of, at least more than Ben. He offed Naomi in cold blood, not bothering to find out she wasn't the actual bad guy. And he ultimately had his father killed. He apparently took a huge risk with Miles' life, though perhaps that was just a dud grenade.

Re: Lost: Season 5

The Island is a dangerous place. Many of the survivors have had to kill for various reasons. That's a world apart from the way the Others operate.

EDIT: I do see your point. He knew about Naomi, the Island told him. I guess at that point, he did show an Other's like expedience in dispatching Naomi.

--
H

Re: Lost: Season 5

At the moment it looks like Locke isn't even getting a chance to be their leader. Before yesterday I thought that Locke failed as a leader in some respect which made it necessary for him to go back and get the Oceanic 6. Now it looks like he needed to go get the Oceanic 6 right from the beginning in order to save the island from the time problems. Not knowing how he does die on the mainland, I am presuming that upon their return and the restabilization of the island, he might come back to life or reappear or something.

Once we see an episode which shows his interactions with the Oceanic 6 we'll understand more, but from what we know so far, it seems they must have thought he was crazy or something telling them about the time jumps. It is only after he dies that Jack realizes that he was telling the truth.

Re: Lost: Season 5

Yes. He tests Locke by asking him to identify the objects that are "already" his. Locke selects the compass and a vial of sand before (incorrectly) picking the knife. That's when Alpert abruptly leaves.

Re: Lost: Season 5

Great discussion guys.

My theory is that it is the African slaves from the slave ship who are shooting the arrows.

As to the red shirts, I've been trying to count the dead. This is what I come up with...

48 original fuselage survivors - I don't think they counted the guy who got sucked into the engine, but did count Ethan. I'll count the engine guy but not Ethan for my 48.

The dead - guy sucked into the engine, girl who drowned early on, the marshall, Steve(or was it Scott?) who Ethan killed, Arzt, Boone, Shannon, Paulo and Nikki, Charlie, three killed at the huts by the mercenaries, Michael, Jin and three sent to the ship when Daniel ferried them across (not the ones with Daniel on the second ferry trip), three shot by arrows yesterday. I make that out as 21 killed.

Walt is off the island, as are five of the Oceanic 6 (Aaron doesn't count). Claire is in the hut. Sawyer and Rose are on the beach. So I come up with 18 fuselage red shirts left.

Re: Lost: Season 5

That's what I get too. So there's 25 people still left on the beach (Sawyer, Juliet, Faraday, Miles, Charlotte, Rose and Bernard and 18 red shirts). It doesn't include Locke or Claire since they're doing their own thing.

However, in a podcast today, the prodcuers said that alot of the red shirt survivors were killed in the arrow attack. I'm sure they'll keep a few around for the background but it sounds like more red shirts than we saw ended up dead.

Re: Lost: Season 5

2 examples of the Island showing up in people's dreams that i can think of is: Dharma-guy telling Locke how to find the cabin, and Eko's brother telling Eko some information. both happened in a dream, passing information they couldn't have otherwise known.

having said that, Claire's message was conflicting. we know Albert and Ben both say all 6 have to return to thew Island. so if Claire's message was from The Island, it's conflicting.

Re: Lost: Season 5

You just reminded me of this, and it's brilliant.

Re: Lost: Season 5

You beat me to it! Yes, there have been several examples of the island communicating with people through their dreams. In addition to your two examples, we have Locke witnessing the beach craft crashing and Ana Lucia telling Eko to help Locke find the question mark on the blast door map. Also Ben revealed to Locke that he used to have dreams, implying that the island used to communicate with him, but doesn't anymore.

I read a theory regarding this so-called conflict, and posted it in spoiler tags earlier in this thread. It's only a theory at this point, so I guess there's no harm in repeating it here:

So if Kate's dream was, in fact, a communication with the island, and we assume the above theory to be true, then the island doesn't want John Locke up and walking around again (which is, I assume, what Ben alluded to when he met Jack's question - "He's dead, isn't he?" - with stony silence). All of which strengthens my belief that Locke is actually the 'big bad' of the entire story. We've been led to assume that he's the tragic hero of the piece, when actually I think he's a weak and dangerous individual whose abandonment issues and ongoing obsession to prove himself have the potential to endanger many lives.

We've seen examples of this. As a boy, when asked by Richard Alpert to identify the items belonging to him, Locke picked the knife which was clearly not what Richard was hoping for. As a teenager, when given the opportunity to come to the island, Locke was beligerant to his teacher and refused to accept his path in life. "Don't tell me what I can't do!" became his motto. As an adult, when conned by his father, Locke's obsession over it lost him the love of his life and ended in his paralysis. And as protector of the island, having been cured of his paralysis, Locke was responsible for the deaths of at least two people (Boone and Naomi). His self-flagellation over the purpose of The Swan resulted in its destruction and (presumably) enabled Widmore to find the island after twenty years of searching. All of which leads me to believe that, when Jacob told Locke to ask "the one question that really matters", Locke got it wrong.

"How do I save the island?"

Notice how Jacob smiled creepily at Claire, who smiled creepily back? What if that wasn't the right question? What if Locke's destiny was never to move the island? What if, just as with every other decision in his life, he managed to come to the wrong conclusion? The answer to his question led directly to the island being moved, which led to the dire state of affairs we are in right now. Now, if any of this has even a hint of truth to it, then it doesn't explain why the island doesn't want John Locke back. Something tells me we'll find out soon!

Right, now that I've got that off my chest, some other random theories/observations:

- I think we can now see why Richard Alpert took such an interest in Locke as a baby, as a young boy and as a teenager. We know Locke will eventually meet Richard in the past because Richard referenced that very meeting when he was removing the bullet from Locke's leg. I think the compass present-Richard gave Locke to give to past-Richard is the very same compass that Richard presented to Locke when he was a boy. Assuming Richard travels back in time subsequent to that meeting (either by using the Orchid, or by becoming 'unstuck' in time), he might have been 'grooming' Locke for the position, or simply monitoring him to make sure he's the leader he claims to be. As we now know, anything touching a person when they go back in time goes "along for the ride". This explains why Richard was able to present young Locke with the very same compass.

- The fact that Locke met Ethan in the past may explain why Ben hates Locke so much. Having shot Locke and then seen him vanish into thin air, Ethan would surely have told Ben. Ben must surely have been curious. Who was this guy whom Ben had never met, laying claim to his throne? Then when Locke showed up on the flight manifest for Oceanic 815, Ben just had to meet him. This ominous figure whom he had built up in his mind... this rival. It would explain why Ben was so eager for Locke to fail, why he played mind-games with him down in the hatch and then shot him and left him for dead in the Dharma mass grave. He even said to Hurley: "I should've known it was pointless but I wasn't thinking clearly". He knew it was pointless because, for Locke to show up in the past and meet Ethan and Richard, he would have to survive whatever Ben could throw at him in the present.

- As for Desmond, I think the reason he's unique is that he was at the centre of the Swan Station when it imploded, and because he's the only person on the island (besides Faraday) with a constant. In other words, he's the only one to have his consciousness become unstuck in time and live to tell the tale (George Minkowski and the other freighter folk all died after their time travel experiences). Also I think the reason Desmond doesn't totally recognise Faraday outside the hatch, despite having met him in Oxford years ago, is that when his mind was fully restored in the present (following the phone conversation with Penny) his memories of those specific events in the past were erased. Sort of like balancing the equation, which is what the constant does. Still, we can see a flicker of recognition when Desmond has Faraday at gunpoint. Oh, and I think the reason Faraday can effectively change the future by giving instructions to Desmond in the past is because Desmond's consciousness still has the ability to jump back and forth - a residual effect of the hatch imploding, if you will. Part of what makes him unique.

- I think the guys with guns threatening Sawyer and Juliette were probably not Dharma folk. The Dharma initiative were wiped out long before Desmond came to the island (nine years prior, I believe) so unless Faraday et al jumped back even further in time without us knowing (unlikely) these soldiers are part of some faction we've not seen before. It's possible they are US Army. Remember Goodwin had that US Army knife which Ana Lucia quizzed him about? I'm assuming Goodwin was never in the military.

- I'm really excited to learn more about the Dharma station named 'The Arrow'. Wasn't that where the tail-section survivors were living for their first 48 days on the island? If so we might finally learn why there's a glass eye in there, and why someone decided to hide part of the orientation film for 'The Swan' in a hollowed out bible. I'm guessing that, at some point, our heroes jump even further back in time. This would explain how Daniel Faraday is able to be present for the building of 'The Orchid', and would allow the writers to address issues such as the invisible map on the blast door in 'The Swan'.

Re: Lost: Season 5

That wasn't Jacob, that was Christian, who said he could speak on Jacob's behalf.

Re: Lost: Season 5

i don't think Locke is bad for the Island, if only for the reason that he's gotten waaaay to close to the Island, and saying Locke is a mistake is like saying the Island has made a mistake. also there are people out there like Ms. Hawking who already know alot more of the future than the viewer (as seen in her telling Desmond about the button pushing he'll have to do). and if people like them (who associate with Ben) allowed Locke to go on, he's probably not the big Evil.

however the argument of "don't you dare bring him back" not referring to Aaron is good. it might refer to Ben. we know that Ben said "whoever moves the Island can't go back", but if anyone can find a loophole or bend the rules, it's Ben. he might have found a way to get back, but needs the O6 to help him. thus, the warning.

Re: Lost: Season 5

Semantics. I think Jacob is just the name The Others give to the consciousness of the island. Christian, Charlie, Ana Lucia, Libby, Eko's brother Yemi, Boone... they are all just 'mouthpieces' for the island. They are all Jacob. When 'Christian' said he was speaking on Jacob's behalf, I believe it was the island's way of saying 'the person who appears to be standing before you represents the island'.

Re: Lost: Season 5

Was this in an earlier episode? I don't remember that in this weeks episode.

Re: Lost: Season 5

Yeah it was in Flashes Before Your Eyes back in S3.

Re: Lost: Season 5

I haven't watched Season 1 in a long time, but didn't Locke have a broken compass back then?

Re: Lost: Season 5

Yeah, he gave it to Sayid who told Jack that it wasn't pointing north properly. I don't think it was broken as much as the magnetism (presumably from The Swan station) was messing it up.

Re: Lost: Season 5

Holy cow Simon Young... thanks for that post. You've given me a lot to think about.

Re: Lost: Season 5

I think rather than having Richard unstuck in time, the Others instead possess a "timeless" quality, for lack of a better term, which grants some immunity to time (limited or otherwise). An individual Other's consciousness is able to span space-time, and maintain a connection between the past, present, and future. This doesn't entail being able to "see the future" or anything, rather an intuition of sorts, regarding people, places, and things, and their position on the timeline. Thus, Richard, apparently ageless to us, was able to "test" the young John Locke with the items he presented to him. The extent of the "failure" is, of course, unknown - can the test show if someone shares the timeless quality of the Others? If so, did failure prove John would be ultimately unfit, or that he was merely unready at such a young age?

Re: Lost: Season 5

Doesn't really add to the discusion, but I started reading the Popcandy USA Today blog recently. Whitney rounded up the best of the comments from yesterday's Lost post and compiled them. Some interesting (and funny) stuff. Plus you have to love the Dharma milk.

'Lost' in a flash: Best of the comments - Pop Candy - USATODAY.com

Re: Lost: Season 5

Late to the party. Enjoyably deep reading here. Most of this stuff
is over my head as I have been enjoying the show at face value.

In the beginning of the episode, Kate is handed a warrant from
an "anonymous client." I had first thought this was Ben Linus' way
of putting her on the run so he could somehow catch up and convince
her to return to the island.

However, later in the episode it is suggested that other people are
after Aaron. Suppose this goes back to "The others."

Fantastic two-hour opening. Thought the Sayid kitchen fight was
pretty incredible. Nothing like impaling someone into a stack of
knives in an open dishwasher.

Re: Lost: Season 5

That's what I thought too. Although I guess it could be part of Sun's plan for revenge against Ben.

Re: Lost: Season 5

i think if the Others wanted Aaron, they'd just take him in the middle of the night. why use lawyers and the courts? this leaves a paper trail. the Others are all about secrecy. if it's anybody, it's Ben making Kate flee (very effective considering how much she didn't want to in the scene with Jack at the airport) or Widmore trying to gain leverage (though he'd probably be much more direct)

Re: Lost: Season 5

That's a good link. This comment got me:


Brilliant.

Re: Lost: Season 5

You know, I was thinking about it, and trying to rationalize something based on what we know so far, even though I'm fairly certain the idea I have is wrong. Maybe getting unstuck in time would have allowed the people who died on the island to be back in time so that they were alive, and that has to do with how Libby got into the mental institution. Of course, (also why I don't believe it myself) that doesn't explain how she would have gotten off the island or into the institution as well. I still have a slight feeling we'll get a real explanation for the Libby thing later on, but if anyone has any ideas similar to what I said I'd love to hear them.

Re: Lost: Season 5

I don't think it works like that. You don't remember things that your future-self learns in the past, otherwise all of the other time-hopping people on the island would have presumably had dreams about getting shot at with flaming arrows! No, I'm sure that when Locke saw the beechcraft crash in his dream it was the island communicating with him, showing him what to do next. The only reason Desmond dreamed about the meeting with Faraday was that his consciousness became unstuck in time as a result of turning the fail-safe key in the hatch. As Daniel put it, he's "uniquely and miraculously special".

Besides which, Desmond is Daniel's constant which probably explains why he's not getting a nosebleed like Charlotte.

Re: Lost: Season 5

I'm wondering if it is just Charlotte that is suffering from the sickness? None of the regulars seem to be but I'm sure a red shirt or two would be.

Re: Lost: Season 5

One important factor, I think, is that Charlotte also hasn't had nosebleeds since she was a child, hinting at things to come.

Personally, I think that all of the scientists, not just Miles, were born on the island. I don't think present time Daniel ends up time traveling into the past and that's how he works for Dharma, but instead I bet that was his natural timeline, the same for Charlotte and Miles, and somehow during the excavating for the Orchid things got screwed up and they ended up in the future and scattered in space, and that's why Widmore picked them for this mission.

Also, it would explain why Daniel was so eager to study time-travel at Oxford... if he had accidentally been time-travelling from Dharma to that timeline, it seems natural that he'd be obsessive about studying it.

Oh, and I just remembered something, for those who think they're making it up as they go along, if there's any of those people still out there. Remember how Rousseau said in season 1 that her people started to get sick, and started to go crazy? Looks like now that was this time-anomaly issue that was seen on the ship last season and on the island this season, doesn't it?