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post #91 of 654
1/15/09 at 11:35am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Ling
Here's a question for you:

For older films like this, where all of the original special features are only in standard def... IF the studio can't/won't spring for the cost of additional dics, and IF there is enough bandwidth via BD-Live... would you folks consider downoads or streaming of old SD bonus content via BD-Live a viable alternative? If such features were on the menus as normal and you have the connection for it to be relatively seamless in playback (which is happening more and more, since many settop boxes are now adding Netflix and YouTube functionality and access), would you use it as such?

Obviously, having it in hand on an actual disc is preferable (if you're a collector and/or like actual tactile things), but if the alternatives are either to not have those features at all or to have them accessible online, would the latter be a legit way to include them?

Thoughts?

V

I agree with the posters above. Something is indeed better than nothing and the material would have to be online for a long time but I assume the old material would be pushed off for new material in its place? (Could the old material be put on DVD instead to save on Blu-Ray authoring? Or even included as some kind of a Best Buy exclusive bonus disc?)

The T2: Ultimate Edition was a DVD-18, then repressed as a 2-disc set. The Extreme Edition was a 2-disc set. So I have to ask (with a smile), "Why stop now?"

(My 666th post. Too bad we're not talking about The Omen.)
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post #92 of 654
1/15/09 at 1:09pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Obviously, having it in hand on an actual disc is preferable (if you're a collector and/or like actual tactile things), but if the alternatives are either to not have those features at all or to have them accessible online, would the latter be a legit way to include them?

I would definantly prefer to have the content on the disc. I do not like the idea of having to have BD-Live in order to watch the bonus features. Or being forced to have the internet or I can not see them. Granted I would get the internet anyway but for me BD-Live is not a big deal. Another reason is that the studio could flat out stop offering the content or change it when ever they wanted. I would hate to have bonus features totallly messed up because the studio decided to be pollitically correct because it didn't want to offend someone for some stupid reason. Or the ability for the studio to find a way to seemless branch a new scene into the movie. Not actually sure if that can be done now but just think if they could do it soon. I like having the content on the disc as it keeps the conent in its original form and it does not keep it from people just because they do not have an internet connection. Bascically I just like having the content on the disc.

Another thing I was just thinking about is why offering the bonus content online would be that much cheaper or desireable verses a disc? The studio would have to produce the content anyway and then they would have to provide enough bandwidth for people to access the features. They would also have to gaurd against there serves being hacked and content being stollen as well, just a thought. Not everyone has internet so this would only benafit those with a internet connection.
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post #93 of 654
1/15/09 at 2:53pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Rickard, I checked the site you referenced and I think that IS the site whose screencaps I checked the original transfer against. The fact that he is pointing out that the PAL looks better than the NTSC, when I know both were made from the exact same HD transfer, whose imagery I could look at directly (since I had requested uncompressed HD footage from the approved transfer to do my menus), tells me that the EE issues were likely introduced downstream from the original transfer. This means it could be anywhere from the compression on down to the player or even the JPEGs he uploaded.

Please note that I'm NOT trying to deny that there's a problem with the images as displayed on the site --they suck. But the images from the original transfer I saw had nowhere near the severity of artifacts and ringing that the web JPEGs show. And I encourage anyone who cares about this issue to look at ALL the possibilities for the source of the problems. They are not always all at the feet of "studio idiots" who don't care about the image. Bear in mind that this was a Lucasfilm-approved transfer as well as THX (I was not involved in the transfer at all, so it's wrong for me to take brickbats or credit for it), so I would encourage everyone to examine and understand the entire process downstream from the transfer, as well as how the transfers were done. And in fact THX did do just that about a year after the TPM DVD came out, where HTF had come out for their annual Hollywood sojourn and THX walked everyone through the process and then had lunch at a Brazilian restaurant. As I recall, it went over rather well with the HTF folk in attendance.

V
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post #94 of 654
1/15/09 at 3:25pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Dave, you bring up good points... but also consider the flip side of the portentous censorship scenario you laid out: you could get additional related bonus content entirely to augment existing ones, like trailers for sequels, etc.; you could get fixes and revisions that correct authoring glitches (like a menu that was misprogrammed) just like with software patches; you could see a special feature that wasn't rushed and done poorly just to make it onto the disc, or dropped entirely because we had to wait past our delivery deadlines to get a legal clearance; and you could download new easter eggs, commentaries, and other features to make the disc's longevity and interest extend further than just watching it all once and putting it on the shelf forever.

None of this changes the fact that it's always nicer to have something in hand. And if you can download it rather than stream it, you can still have it in a form where it can't be replaced and resides in your possession on local storage. The glass half-empty versus half-full argument applies here: some folks lambaste me for adding Easter Eggs to my discs where I can, because I'm depriving them of easy access to something they feel entitled to. The way I see it, I'm trying to add more value to the product often after they've already locked the content of the disc and the menus, and I'm trying to squeeze in some additional stuff by cajoling the authors to put stuff in that the studio often didn't even pay for me to create.

In a scenario like BD-Live, I may get told that they want to focus the physical disc on new features or HD stuff only, so anything else I want to add can and should be done via BD-Live, since most studios are building that streaming/download functionality and capacity anyway. Usually, the alternative in the studios' view is not "well, we should put it on a second disc" if it's legacy content... it's usually "let's not do it at all".

So if we struggle to make it possible to get the content out to you in some way at all, you can understand how it can be disappointing to hear folks complaining about why it's not on the disc they way they want it.

Sorry about the rant ;-)

V
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post #95 of 654
1/15/09 at 3:35pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Ling
Rickard, I checked the site you referenced and I think that IS the site whose screencaps I checked the original transfer against. The fact that he is pointing out that the PAL looks better than the NTSC, when I know both were made from the exact same HD transfer, whose imagery I could look at directly (since I had requested uncompressed HD footage from the approved transfer to do my menus), tells me that the EE issues were likely introduced downstream from the original transfer. This means it could be anywhere from the compression on down to the player or even the JPEGs he uploaded.

Please note that I'm NOT trying to deny that there's a problem with the images as displayed on the site --they suck. But the images from the original transfer I saw had nowhere near the severity of artifacts and ringing that the web JPEGs show. And I encourage anyone who cares about this issue to look at ALL the possibilities for the source of the problems. They are not always all at the feet of "studio idiots" who don't care about the image. Bear in mind that this was a Lucasfilm-approved transfer as well as THX (I was not involved in the transfer at all, so it's wrong for me to take brickbats or credit for it), so I would encourage everyone to examine and understand the entire process downstream from the transfer, as well as how the transfers were done. And in fact THX did do just that about a year after the TPM DVD came out, where HTF had come out for their annual Hollywood sojourn and THX walked everyone through the process and then had lunch at a Brazilian restaurant. As I recall, it went over rather well with the HTF folk in attendance.

V
Actually, I held off the R1 and bought the PAL version, actually imported R4, just because of
the severe EE on that R1 release. And yes, the EE I have seen on that R4
disc with my last 3 DVD players pretty much look like the PAL screen caps
on that site. So I don't think this particular issue has to do with the players and
if the trailer looks great, then it must be something else down the line that
went wrong.
Mistakes can happen, remember the framing errors on the "Back to the Future"-trilogy?
Very galant of Universal to admit the mistake and send out replacement discs.

But I agree, players and display settings and even cables can introduce EE/ringing
but I don't think so in this case.

Edit: sorry to have gotten off topic so much...
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post #96 of 654
1/16/09 at 8:29am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Hi Van,

Regarding the bonuses on Blu-Ray, here's my humble take : we already, for most of us, own the original T1 and T2 DVDs. I have all editions and i'm keeping them, including the original Image T1 disc because somehow they put the T1 soundtrack in 2.1 (which is the reason some people say it's "better" than the one in the final T1 DVD, they "remastered" it with extra bottom for more hmmmpfff on home-theater sets even if a message was included that no tampering was done).

I myself don't really care about SD supplements included on BR discs, I think they have no place there, plus we can't uspcale them on the PS3 so they are viewed in lower resolution than if you put it your old DVD.

BR are supposed to be High-Def, so they should be 100% High-Def in my opinion.

However, I don't mind if anyone put in an extra DVD disc in the package, with all the supplements as they previously appeared on regular DVD, region free in the case of region ABC discs.

I think the focus should be on offering the best options for image and sound on the Blu-Rays (including for T1 the mono soundtrack, and for T2 perhaps a couple of different mixes if the difference warrant it), and that any bonus on the BR should be either an old bonus redone in high-def (ala recent 007 bonuses on BR), or a new one also in HD. Of course it depends on budget, but I think it could be the right time for setting up a huge restrospective documentary on the Terminator saga, using both old and new footage, spread between T1 and T2 blu reissues.

All the old material can be, if they are really needed, included as a regular SD DVD (I'm not sure you would want to redo all those old T2 cards again now in high-def !) or just left as is on the old discs, which most of the fans own already anyway.

Regarding a 5.1 remix of T1, I think really that there's no need to completely remix again, however I think all the faults of the recent remix should be corrected, much in the same way the Lowry team corrected all that was noted wrong on the UE Bond discs for the BR versions. I assume they just printed out all the complaints that were on this site (there was what, 78 pages ?), and corrected each of them accordingly, including sound fixes on Thunderball etc.

As for T1 and T2 HD scans, I have a question, were the last one done from IPs, or from the negatives ? I know negs are harder to rescan as they have to be handled with caution and can break in places, but if the recent scans were from IPs, and are older than 5-7 years, they would look much better if redone again with the brand new Spirits.

Also no Mpeg2, both recent T1 and T2 american discs are mpeg2 and they look to me marginally better than the DVDs upscaled, of course they offer more definition, but it's nowhere near as good as what current AVC or VC-1 can offer.

Just my two cents... Can't wait !
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post #97 of 654
1/18/09 at 7:57am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

btw, another feature request for t2

terminator 2 3d: battle across time

please, make this film finally available outside universal studio tours.
i know that the ride has real actor's to make the ride more fun. but it should be possible to include it in some way ... in hd of course.

this would make the t2 extras truly complete.
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post #98 of 654
1/19/09 at 1:01pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

i agree with dvdivision. audiovisual quality trumps all else. i'd even buy a bare-bones if it was very well done. i already bought these T1&2 on BD, just saying if they remastered it again for next BD release.
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post #99 of 654
1/19/09 at 8:39pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Enrico, I've been trying to get Act Two of T23D onto a disc for over five years now... the fact that it is owned by yet ANOTHER different studio (this time MCA/Universal) makes it an expensive proposition... not to mention the fact that there is concern that putting some of the show onto a commercially available disc would hurt sales to the theme parks. I tried to argue that it might RAISE sales to the parks by whetting folks' appetites to go after seeing a part of the show (the most filmlike part), but they didn't go for it. And that was just a 2D version of the piece, as there is still no practical/economical way to bring 3D into the home theater yet (although some may beg to differ, the general cost for the average consumer is still too high). Still, with 3D now officially on the horizon for home video, I will keep trying.

V

PS: I'm pushing for AVC and DTS-HD Master Audio lossless on T2... ;-)
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post #100 of 654
1/20/09 at 9:36am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

thank you van for the exploantion. but maybe, just maybe, universal and lionsgate see that it would help both parties to include battle across time.

as for the dts ma, please let it be 5.1 and not one those weird 7.1 upmixes ; )
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post #101 of 654
1/23/09 at 12:28pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Van is the man
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post #102 of 654
1/23/09 at 9:07pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Ling
PS: I'm pushing for AVC and DTS-HD Master Audio lossless on T2... ;-)
Glad to hear it! I'm sure you'll be able to get that signed-off on, that seems to be LionsGate's favorite codec combination. Are you able to give any info on what will be used for a master?

Also glad to hear the love for the show at Universal. It's been a good six and a half years since I saw that one... I'd love to see it again.
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post #103 of 654
1/25/09 at 5:18am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

the old SD bonuses sould be on a separate DVD.
We need a new long documentary about the film, like the ones on The Fly, Top Gun or Blade Runner. Something huge. We are talking about Terminator movies !
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post #104 of 654
1/25/09 at 8:55am
Thread Starter 

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

A new long doc would be great but probably won't happen until the 20th anniversary in 2011... primarily because Cameron is so busy right now that getting his time and required approval would be (and has been) nearly impossible. Same goes for any new transfers... this is why we haven't gotten an approved new "Abyss" HD transfer yet.

As for the T2 master, it's the same approved master we used on the first Blu-ray release, but with a lot of laborious dirt removal done to it and a much better encode (not MPEG2!). And any primary lossless audio would be the original 5.1 mix; the only ones who ever did a faux 7.1 upmix were the German folks at Kinowelt for the swansong HD-DVD release last year.

V
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post #105 of 654
1/25/09 at 12:49pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Ling
A new long doc would be great but probably won't happen until the 20th anniversary in 2011... primarily because Cameron is so busy right now that getting his time and required approval would be (and has been) nearly impossible.
V

don't get me wrong. I can wait until 2011. who hasn't a dvd of T2 at home ?

I already have the two Region 1 DVD you worked on,

since it is not my favorite cameron film (I prefer The Abyss (long version), it is already nice to have it twice.
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post #106 of 654
1/25/09 at 3:15pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

I have the DVD of T2 at home so I can totally wait for the Blu-ray version to come out as long as it is done right. I am happy with the current version of T1 on Bluray, but would love to have T-2 & T-3 with lossless audio.
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post #107 of 654
1/26/09 at 12:27pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Ling
As for the T2 master, it's the same approved master we used on the first Blu-ray release, but with a lot of laborious dirt removal done to it and a much better encode (not MPEG2!). And any primary lossless audio would be the original 5.1 mix; the only ones who ever did a faux 7.1 upmix were the German folks at Kinowelt for the swansong HD-DVD release last year.

V
Glad to hear that about the audio. I was wondering if the original mix was going to make it on there because LionsGate seems to be gung-ho about 7.1 upmixes on just about everything for the past year and a half (and 6.1 before that).

Also glad to hear that the master has had some extra care given to it.

Thanks for keeping us posted!
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post #108 of 654
1/27/09 at 7:27am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

i second this notion. i don't want to buy another copy...

and then to have to buy yet ANOTHER one in 2011. that's only 2 years away. i'll simply wait for the whole thing to be done properly and then get it all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerome
don't get me wrong. I can wait until 2011. who hasn't a dvd of T2 at home ?

I already have the two Region 1 DVD you worked on,

since it is not my favorite cameron film (I prefer The Abyss (long version), it is already nice to have it twice.
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post #109 of 654
1/27/09 at 9:27am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

As a reviewer and collector, if authoring and replication costs are the reason for previously available features from the DVD to be left off a BD release, then the features should be made available on a DVD.

This is especially the case when the DVD was a 2-disc set, and the new BD's content is virtually identical to disc 1 of the DVD, with the majority of special features on disc 2 of the DVD. Universal's recent BD releases of "Hellboy II" and "The Mummy: Tomb of the Dragon Emperor" are good examples, even though they are new, and not catalog, titles.
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post #110 of 654
1/30/09 at 4:59pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Ling
And any primary lossless audio would be the original 5.1 mix

this is indeed good news. thank you van

hopefully you can get a good source to add the trailers for terminator 2 in glorious highdef. the teaser is one the best ever made and a rare true teaser. it's such a shame that no one really cares making these kinda trailers anymore. ok, resident evil 2 had a wonderful teaser
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post #111 of 654
2/1/09 at 12:40am
Thread Starter 

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Enrico, I'll see what I can do about the trailers... ;-)

V
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post #112 of 654
2/2/09 at 5:29am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

van, this would be awesome

if possible, push for oar versions


one question about deleted scenes...

are they all lost or do they still exist? it would be interesting to finally see them and why mr. cameron took them out. example would be the the scene from john asking t-800 if the t-1000 can be destroyed. in the trailer he replies "unknown" which was cut from the movie.
i guess there are more interesting scenes to discover for us fans.
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post #113 of 654
2/2/09 at 11:09am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Van,

Will the eventual re-issue of Terminator I on Blu-ray feaure a new encode or new transfer? I do understand Terminator II will. Thanks.
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post #114 of 654
2/2/09 at 2:54pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

I know this question was asked a while ago but for the DVD special features if they can't be put on the Blu-ray Disc my second choice would be to have them on a DVD (they must have been produced in standard def anyway). If that doesn't happen then the ability to download them to the player would work too.

The ability to download new features that might not be ready in time for the initial release sounds intriguing as well.

Will seamless branching be used to provide different cuts of the film?

Thanks again for taking the time to let us in on all this!
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post #115 of 654
2/3/09 at 8:53am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

When I upgrade, I prefer to give my old dvd's to someone else or get rid of them all together.

So...I'd like to see all the supplements from the Ultimate and Extreme edition included on the new BD. Extras are important to me, especially for films that are all time classics and deserve it.

Plus, a lot of time and care were put into these extras and I want to see them perserved on BD.

thanks
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post #116 of 654
2/3/09 at 12:07pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Enrico, that short omitted line was simply an additional beat in the dialogue of an existing scene, so it's unlikely that we'd be trying to make a meal out of it for the disc... at least you have it in the trailer! ;-)

Dave, I believe that T1 will be a new full restoration that Lightstorm is doing with Lowry Digital, where the film was scanned in and worked on, so it should be a new "transfer" and encode as well. So if you don't like it, blame Lightstorm! ;-)

Casey, we are trying to get seamless branching to work on the disc for the upcoming T2 release... the challenge is always one of space: even with 50Gb of dual-layer disc space, trying to do the branching AND have lossless audio AND have all of the commentaries AND any other special features that would run with the feature fills up the disc pretty quickly! "We gonna need a bigger boat..." ;-)

V
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post #117 of 654
2/3/09 at 3:52pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Ling
Dave, I believe that T1 will be a new full restoration that Lightstorm is doing with Lowry Digital, where the film was scanned in and worked on, so it should be a new "transfer" and encode as well. So if you don't like it, blame Lightstorm! ;-)

Casey, we are trying to get seamless branching to work on the disc for the upcoming T2 release... the challenge is always one of space: even with 50Gb of dual-layer disc space, trying to do the branching AND have lossless audio AND have all of the commentaries AND any other special features that would run with the feature fills up the disc pretty quickly! "We gonna need a bigger boat..." ;-)

V
Wow, glad to hear that about T1.

I'll keep my fingers crossed for T2! I like both cuts for different reasons, that's one of the things that bothered me about the German HD DVD.
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post #118 of 654
2/4/09 at 10:06am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Ling
A new long doc would be great but probably won't happen until the 20th anniversary in 2011... primarily because Cameron is so busy right now that getting his time and required approval would be (and has been) nearly impossible. Same goes for any new transfers... this is why we haven't gotten an approved new "Abyss" HD transfer yet.
What does an approved HD transfer actually mean?
Does JC himself have to be involved in the nitty gritty work or
does he just have a look at a transfer and say OK or not OK?
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post #119 of 654
2/4/09 at 6:35pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Van,

Does this new transfer of T1 need to be approved by Cameron as well? If so, could that hold things up?

As far as T2 is concerned, is there a reason why the original 5.1 mix will be used, and not the EX mix which was done for the Ultimate Edition?

Also, assuming that you cannot get the seamless branching to work on T2, which version of the movie will be included?

Better yet, could you offer some insight into which version of the movie Cameron truly prefers? He's made it pretty clear that he thinks that the extended cuts of ALIENS and THE ABYSS are improvements over the theatrical cuts. But there hasn't really been any definitive evidence regarding his preference for T2. It seems like he prefers the theatrical cut, but he's never just flat out said that. Could you possibly set the record straight, once and for all? Thanks.

As far as what I'd like to see on the discs, the only obvious omission from previous versions that I can think of is a commentary track on T1. I'll buy T2 again, regardless. But pretty much the only thing that could get me to repurchase T1 is a commentary.

Thanks Again.
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post #120 of 654
2/4/09 at 9:54pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

I'm against new effects in T1 also, but... I would not mind if some of the more obvious stop-motion sequences had some synthesized frames created to make the motion more smooth. I mean, if a movement is not fluid because the model Terminator was only moved half as much as would have been ideal to replicate real-time movement, have a computer create the in-between movements so it is smoother.
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Terminator 2: Judgment Day (Skynet Edition) [Blu-ray]
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The Terminator [Blu-ray]
$9.15 at
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