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Terminator 1 & 2 - Page 15

post #421 of 654
5/27/09 at 12:05pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

I'll bet that a new master of The Terminator will end up looking better than the 2003 HD master of T2.
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post #422 of 654
5/27/09 at 12:36pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oliver_A
I'll bet that a new master of The Terminator will end up looking better than the 2003 HD master of T2.

Obviously. A new master of T2 would look better than the current one too. I think I'll just put off buying any Cameron movies on Blu until after Avatar, when he actually has the time to give his comments on the new masters.
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post #423 of 654
5/27/09 at 2:37pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Van, will Cameron take a time-out after Avatar, or will he plunge headlong into Battle Angel?
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post #424 of 654
5/27/09 at 4:31pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

A Lowry version of Terminator 1 sounds interesting, it must present an unusual situation when the movie's budget and filming conditions are such a big part of its character. I'll probably cave and buy the current one while I wait. I appreciate that Cameron wants to approve the transfers and new discs must wait for him, but I'm confused about the reasoning. (Why is circulating an old transfer preferable to a new one approved by someone like Mr. Ling or the D.P.? The end result is that a meticulously photographed movie is out there looking worse than Hogan's Heroes for millions of people for years at a time. I'm thinking especially of The Abyss here.)
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post #425 of 654
5/27/09 at 8:45pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Hi,

I have a question about the reincorporated "special edition" footage on the new T2 Skynet Ed BD.... (please forgive me if this was already asked.)

I previously owned the "Ultimate Ed" DVD, so perhaps this issue was addressed earlier on the "Extreme" DVD...I don't know. Anyhow, there used to be at least one noticeable jump cut where the additional footage was spliced back into the film...one spot that comes to mind is mid-shot as the T-1000 is walking towards camera in the foundry just before he grabs the black/yellow-striped railing and 'glitches'. My understanding is that (at least) a frame is lost in the splicing process. This does not seem to be noticeable in the the BD - even upon step-frame advance - and I was just wondering if perhaps a source closer to the OCN was used in the most recent mastering process which had not experienced said frame loss, or if the missing frame(s) had been digitally interpolated somehow? Thanks for your kind reply.
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post #426 of 654
5/28/09 at 8:45am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Read the bonuses of the UE DVD... Van Ling recreated the missing frames
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post #427 of 654
5/28/09 at 10:16am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

I have some good news for ps3 owners who have the skynet blu-ray. you can now insert the Blu-ray & it will automatically fix the problem with the bd-live video downloads. They just added the japanese teasters & Trailers if you want to test a small download
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post #428 of 654
5/28/09 at 5:48pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Geoff, I have no idea what Jim Cameron plans to do after Avatar... although I'd recommend a vacation for everyone involved. ;-)

Alex, in Jim's case he has contractual approval over the transfers of his films, depending upon the studio deal... and where he doesn't, he'll use his clout to have approval anyway, because no one wants to get on the bad side of a director of his caliber. As a result, the studio will just keep re-using the last approved transfer they have if they cannot get him to take the time to review and approve a new one. This has been the case for "The Abyss" for many years.

Craig, I did in fact rebuild/morph the missing frames for T2, as David mentioned.

Finally, the Skynet BD-Live feature is an evolving process, so my thanks for everyone's patience...

V
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post #429 of 654
5/29/09 at 4:40am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Hi Van got the french steelbook on street day, and I am currently delving into it. Takes days to check everything of the disc
I connected to the UK BD Live mainframe, alas all the text was in german once I accessed the content. Hopefully, they will update soon with translations (or original english text) of all the stuff there. No documentary extra to download yet thought. French mainframe doesn't load.

Regarding the PQ debate, here's my 2cents : it's indeed softer than the japanese steelbook discs, but contrast and color timing are more in sync with how the film always looked. Most pleasurable to the eye presentation yet, thought those wanting the extra 5% more detail and grain (or is that noise ?) will probably stick to the japanese one, or original UK disc.

For those who own the xtreme DVD, and think it looks fine upscaled : this new release present a major difference in the colors and contrast, the original xtreme DVD encoding in mpeg2 having somehow a yellow shift on all the movie, resulting in the colors looking off in many scenes. Check the DVDbeaver comparison, to see how HD presentation improves the coloring :

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDRe...et_blu-ray.htm

Notice how the sky is more natural behind Sarah, as well as her skin tone.

The Skynet Blu-Ray is more in sync with how the film always looked, whereas the xtreme DVD encoding had too much yellow, making it look a bit off.
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post #430 of 654
5/29/09 at 10:01am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by dvdvision
Hi Van got the french steelbook on street day, and I am currently delving into it. Takes days to check everything of the disc
I connected to the UK BD Live mainframe, alas all the text was in german once I accessed the content. Hopefully, they will update soon with translations (or original english text) of all the stuff there. No documentary extra to download yet thought. French mainframe doesn't load.

Regarding the PQ debate, here's my 2cents : it's indeed softer than the japanese steelbook discs, but contrast and color timing are more in sync with how the film always looked. Most pleasurable to the eye presentation yet, thought those wanting the extra 5% more detail and grain (or is that noise ?) will probably stick to the japanese one, or original UK disc.

For those who own the xtreme DVD, and think it looks fine upscaled : this new release present a major difference in the colors and contrast, the original xtreme DVD encoding in mpeg2 having somehow a yellow shift on all the movie, resulting in the colors looking off in many scenes. Check the DVDbeaver comparison, to see how HD presentation improves the coloring :

T2 - Skynet Edition Blu-ray - Arnold Linda Hamilton

Notice how the sky is more natural behind Sarah, as well as her skin tone.

The Skynet Blu-Ray is more in sync with how the film always looked, whereas the xtreme DVD encoding had too much yellow, making it look a bit off.


I agree with this assessment. I have the UK HD-DVD and just got the skynet. After comparing, the skynet blu is now my preferred version. I agree with everything you said. And I think the HD-DVD version is not grain, but noise.
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post #431 of 654
5/29/09 at 3:57pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Ling
Craig, I did in fact rebuild/morph the missing frames for T2, as David mentioned.

You did a really great job on that! It's only noticeable when you know it's there, and freeze frame through the sequences.
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post #432 of 654
5/31/09 at 5:05pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Still my favorite exchange in all the discussions of the Skynet edition:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michel_Hafner
It's oversmoothed and not what the IP looks like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geoff_D
You've, ah, seen "the IP" then, Michel?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michel_Hafner
I have seen the different HD versions of the IP. That's my conclusion. If someone has an uncompressed version of this still from the original HD master I'm all eyes to compare to the released versions.
Translating that last entry from the Evasive: "No, I haven't seen the IP. I've seen the same discs available to everyone else."

Thanks for asking the question, Geoff. The answer was informative, both in substance and in form.
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post #433 of 654
6/1/09 at 3:15pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
Still my favorite exchange in all the discussions of the Skynet edition:
Translating that last entry from the Evasive: "No, I haven't seen the IP. I've seen the same discs available to everyone else."
Thanks for asking the question, Geoff. The answer was informative, both in substance and in form.
Informative? It's just the same old argument: If you have not personally seen film element x you can say nothing about how some HD relates to it. It was claimed for Patton too (how can you know 70mm does not look like this transfer?). Informative is a precise and indeed not evasive technical explanation why the new disk looks as it does and different from the others. The answers so far are not convincing (different encoder, no sharpening).
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post #434 of 654
6/1/09 at 6:15pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Ahhh, who cares how it looks, if it takes 5 minutes to load.

The latest (April), but i am sure not the last, firmware didnt do much getting my Sony to play this movie faster. I am sure Sony will "fix" this problem. If you leave some of the extras, to get back to the movie, the whole skynet thing starts all over! If you hate the DNR, just be glad you can see it in the first place!

Jeez, its like waiting for water to boil.
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post #435 of 654
6/1/09 at 7:41pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michel_Hafner
Informative?
Yes, indeed. Informative about you and the credibility of your assertions ("not what the IP looks like" -- which you don't know, because you've never seen it).

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickER
Ahhh, who cares how it looks, if it takes 5 minutes to load.
Unfortunately, I have to agree that's the real issue with this release. You have to give credit where it's due, though. Someone has to push the limits of the menu and disc programming language, and no one does it as well as Van Ling!
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post #436 of 654
6/1/09 at 11:51pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Well, Michael and RickER, you know the Old West saying: "You can identify the pioneers by the arrows in their backs." ;-)

V
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post #437 of 654
6/2/09 at 5:15am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

It may be slightly off topic, but has Mr Cameron seen T:S? have you seen it for that matter Mr Ling? what are your thoughts?

I saw a midnight preview of it last night and I must say....I thought it was quite intense. I had read some criticism, so I lowered my expectations accordingly, and what I saw was a film that was on par with what I'd expected from a Terminator film set in the future, and a film that really put T3 to shame.

Some liked it, some didn't, everybody's entitled to their opinion. Could the film have been better? oh definitely. Could it have been worse? most certainly.

I enjoyed it, and was still scratching my head at the fact that it was directed by McG (of Charlie's Angels fame). There were alot of well executed scenes, and a brilliant sense of scope and intensity to the film. It was no T2, but my God, I enjoyed the hell out of it.

Also, on my PS3, T2 Skynet Edition takes between 60-90 seconds to load up. So I can't really say that I have to wait a long time for it to load. I usually go off to get a drink before every film, so I don't usually have a problem with the disc loading, unless if it's a Warner title, and the movie starts up straight away.
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post #438 of 654
6/2/09 at 8:01am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Ling
Well, Michael and RickER, you know the Old West saying: "You can identify the pioneers by the arrows in their backs." ;-)
And now that you've blazed the trail, we need someone else to build a railroad.

Van, I must compliment you on the text commentary/interactive mode. It does take a while to load, but it looks great once it does.
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post #439 of 654
6/3/09 at 12:42am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Well I must admit I was quite reluctant towards the Skynet Edition as I thought the Extreme DVD was already a hell of a job.
But my girlfriend just offered me the Skynet BD (European Studio Canal version) for my anniversary yesterday evening. I didn't have time to watch the movie yet but I put the disc in to see some extracts. Honestly, I think this the best presentation of the movie I've ever seen. Correctly detailed, fine grain, sharp contrats and color... I was blown away by the real plastic and organic feeling of this transfer on my 42'' HD TV.
I have one negative though: the menu access is long and works like a breathless old Amiga trying to run Doom 3... :lol:
Otherwise, the only more thing I can add is: THANK YOU VERY MUCH, VAN!
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post #440 of 654
6/3/09 at 11:49am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Van,

Just bought the Australian release of the Skynet Edition BD, and running it on my PS3, my gripes aren't with load time or anything, other than the damn unskippable Studio Canal logo! You get it upon loading, then again when starting the film (although as a separate title on the disc).

A couple of quick questions if you have a sec,

a) The BD-Live of "More Deleted Scenes" (the script/storyboard extracts) doesn't have the intro text in english, only another language. Actual extracts are english, but just wondered if you could pass the info on to the right person if you know who it hit up?

b) There seems to be a little glitch in the production/shot content track. In the steel mill, when John, Sarah and the Terminator are getting out of the small truck while the T-1000 is reforming, there's a mention of something like a matte painting, and some screen overlays that is brief, but seems to be for the wrong part of the film. Did you catch this or is a screw up on the Universal/SC end of things?

Just wanted to say thanks for what is a really great release. Well implemented, and in true Van Ling style, trying to show off the very limits of the format. This one'll be in rotation on my PS3 for awhile until I've gone through it all.


Oh, as a final note, the Australian BD has a metal sleeve, is from universal and is region free, and JB HiFi have the endoskull as an exclusive (limited to 500 in Aus) which only contains the BD (a little lame in that respect - it costs 5x the price of the BD itself, and it's odd seeing a single disc in a spindle meant for 6!). It is however, lacking the DD 5.1 ex track, but has the headphone track in addition to the DTS HD MA 6.1. No TheaterVision track either, just some dubs.
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post #441 of 654
6/3/09 at 2:45pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
Thanks for asking the question, Geoff. The answer was informative, both in substance and in form.
No problemo.
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post #442 of 654
6/9/09 at 1:28pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

I finally got the chance to give the Skynet Edition a spin yesterday, and color me impressed. To my eyes this is the best the film has ever looked and sounded on home video; the colors look a lot better and the dirt and scratch removal looks like it went well. Even when staring at images side-by-side with the previous editions I'm not seeing any difference in actual detail. I am now thinking that the older master may have had noise that didn't belong there, not that the new master has had it scrubbed out. That could give the illusion of added detail.

I didn't have time to look at the PiP stuff, but the online features look cool, and I thought it was a neat touch to have the disc find out where you live and give the weather and local time. The loading times were a little bit on the long side on my PS3, but I didn't think it was anything worth getting worked up over.

I could have done a lot worse for fifteen dollars, that's for sure.

Thanks again!
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post #443 of 654
6/10/09 at 9:20am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Van,

Were you ever able to verify why the Geneon release looks a tad sharper than the Skynet version? Thanks.
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post #444 of 654
6/12/09 at 4:58pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Van (or somebody else who knows ), I just noticed that several featurettes included on the previous DVD releases seem to be missing on the Skynet BD release (these features have been included in the German HD-DVD, as well):

- "The Making of T2" (UE)
- "T2: More than meets the Eye" (UE)
- "The Making of T2:3D" (UE)
- "No Feat But What We Make": All new documentary (EE)
- "T2: On the Set": New retrospective Montage of Behind the Scenes Production Footage (EE)

Is this the case or are these featurettes incorporated in any of the interactive materials of the Skynet Edition, and if, where?

Thank you in advance for your help!
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post #445 of 654
6/13/09 at 3:45am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
Yes, indeed. Informative about you and the credibility of your assertions ("not what the IP looks like" -- which you don't know, because you've never seen it).
I haven't seen the IP of Patton either and still I know it does not look like the HD transfer. What's so hard to understand here? T2 is not such a clear cut case but clear enough that I'm pretty confident with my statement. If you have any evidence to prove me wrong please present it. If you don't why do you question my credibility?
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post #446 of 654
6/13/09 at 6:38am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michel_Hafner
I haven't seen the IP of Patton either and still I know it does not look like the HD transfer. What's so hard to understand here?
Among other things, there's the question of what should be the standard for judging an accurate transfer. At least for a pre-DI film, that would arguably be an answer print, not an interpositive (or "IP"). But let's put that aside.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michel_Hafner
If you have any evidence to prove me wrong please present it. If you don't why do you question my credibility?
I'm not making any claims about the Skynet edition. You are.

In most instances where a DVD or Blu-ray is being evaluated, we all start from the same position, because none of us has access to answer prints or interpositives or anything else. We just have the disc. It all comes down to the judgment of the individual viewer. And if a viewer ventures out into the world and offers an opinion, the weight to be accorded that judgment depends on how credible the viewer is. It's up to the guy doing the talking to make his opinion credible. If he can't do that, he has only himself to blame.

And anyway, this isn't the typical case. Here we have someone -- Van Ling, the disc's producer -- who has seen a lot more than the rest of us when it comes to T2, and who has candidly related how this disc was created. I've met Van, and we all know his history of excellent work in home video production. Van's bona fides are well-established. What he says I take seriously. If I want to know something about the Skynet edition, I'll ask Van. Especially in a case that, as you admit, is not "clear cut", Van's word is a lot better evidence than some intuited IP.
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post #447 of 654
6/13/09 at 7:01am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Especially in a case that, as you admit, is not "clear cut", Van's word is a lot better evidence than some intuited IP.

Michael,

very well put post. I think most of us agree. The complications with T2 are that Van didn't actually perform the compression or mastering... so he's only really informed about what was supposed to have happened not necessarily what actually did (he's indicated this clearly), not to mention the that the CODEC and compression style can modify high frequency detail on their own, and add to this that we have several Blu-ray Disc versions of not only this same film, but this same film from this same master floating around. So while we may lack access to the IP or reference print as you say, when the same master from the same film transfer reveals such visible differences in several production Blu-ray Disc releases, and we can directly compare and contrast them, it's not unreasonable suggest that the version that appears to be lacking the most detail might have experienced some form of DNR or high-frequency filtering by some means or another, whether by intent via an unintended byproduct of some other process (like low bit-rate VC-1). Even were that the case, the integrity of Van's comments are still in tact.

Now, were Van saying "I've seen the IP and/or reference print and when projecting this Blu-ray Disc side-by-side, they appear identical, and in fact the other Blu-ray Disc releases deviate from the film source", that would be a different discussion.
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post #448 of 654
6/13/09 at 12:27pm

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
So while we may lack access to the IP or reference print as you say, when the same master from the same film transfer reveals such visible differences in several production Blu-ray Disc releases, and we can directly compare and contrast them, it's not unreasonable suggest that the version that appears to be lacking the most detail might have experienced some form of DNR or high-frequency filtering by some means or another, whether by intent via an unintended byproduct of some other process (like low bit-rate VC-1).
I don't disagree that those are valid issues, David. The exchange I quoted went far beyond "suggest[ing]".

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Now, were Van saying "I've seen the IP and/or reference print and when projecting this Blu-ray Disc side-by-side, they appear identical, and in fact the other Blu-ray Disc releases deviate from the film source", that would be a different discussion.
No responsible person would make (or imply) such a claim (or its opposite), unless they'd actually seen the IP. Hence the credibility issue noted above.
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post #449 of 654
6/15/09 at 2:40am
Thread Starter 

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Sorry, but I was away for a bit... thanks for all of the kind words in my absence...

Jonathon, that Australian version accesses the Imagion BD-Live feature, which is different from the US BD-Live application I worked on with Sofatronic, so I can't really comment on it since I was not involved in that part of the international discs; Studio Canal did the European BD-Live stuff on their end. Also, this Australian version is technically not region-free, as Studio Canal made a big to-do about wanting all versions to be region-coded; however, since it has to serve both the South American and European markets, it's coded for both Region A and B, which I guess makes it pretty much region-free except for the folks in Region C (mainly China and Russia). Only the US domestic version has the original DD5.1EX and the TheatreVision track... there was no room on the Universal disc due to all of the languages.

Dave H, I'm compiling some info now that I'll post in a day or so on what info I've gleaned regarding the transfer/compression on the film... thanks for your patience.

Lars, the five items you mentioned are all standard-def items that we felt we could provide via means other than taking up room on the single Blu-ray disc, so they were not included in the Skynet Edition. Much as I would have loved to include them all, the studio would not spring for doing a second disc for extras... so here in the US, Lionsgate made them available either via BD-Live download for all but the montage (which will hopefully be available for download soon) or in the Limited Edition endo-head edition, which has the Ultimate T2 and T2 Extreme DVDs included. I'm not sure what Studio Canal plans to do regarding these five items... maybe they're doing them for download as well. Can anyone tell me what is on the European BD-Live feature, besides omitted script pages?

Michael, Michel, David and friends: film is pretty subjective and while I may have some "authority" from having worked on the film and disc, I really do value and learn from everyone's opinions, because when it comes down to it, we each make our own determination as to whether something looks good to us or not. Filmmakers, if they are lucky, try to present their films as they want to see it, and let the viewer decide if it works for them or not, both on a visual and narrative level. A "definitive" version is relative to the time and the people in control at the time, and eyes change as easily as technology does. And there can always be differences of opinion: a filmmaker may tweak the color in the DI or in the video transfer, while the DP might prefer it to be color-timed differently. Even sharpness can be a matter of taste or opinion; some folks like their images sharpened or cleaned up, while others see only loss of detail and edge enhancement in the result. The most fascinating thing to me is how you can take the same master transfer and put it through different (or even the same) compression at different facilities using different compressionists and equipment, and get wildly varying results over the years. This can be a sign of inconsistency or it can be a sign of evolution; for example, when Jim and I were doing the second transfer of The Abyss for the Special Edition back in 1993, we looked at the first approved transfer we did for laserdisc in 1989 and went "what were we thinking?!"... yet it was not only approved, but got some great notices at the time it was released. We're ALL learning and evolving in this process...

So I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for your sharp eyes, sharp tongues, open minds and respectful dialogue!

V
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post #450 of 654
6/15/09 at 7:49am

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Ling
Jonathon, that Australian version accesses the Imagion BD-Live feature, which is different from the US BD-Live application I worked on with Sofatronic, so I can't really comment on it since I was not involved in that part of the international discs; Studio Canal did the European BD-Live stuff on their end. Also, this Australian version is technically not region-free, as Studio Canal made a big to-do about wanting all versions to be region-coded; however, since it has to serve both the South American and European markets, it's coded for both Region A and B, which I guess makes it pretty much region-free except for the folks in Region C (mainly China and Russia). Only the US domestic version has the original DD5.1EX and the TheatreVision track... there was no room on the Universal disc due to all of the languages.

Van,

Thank you for taking the time to respond to my questions. I just have a couple of follow ups.

Do you know who I should contact in regards to the Studio Canal disc's BD-Live not all being in English (I have to assume it's a server-side issue, rather than player settings on my end, as my PS3 is set up correctly for language/location/etc).

As to the comment about it not being region free, just thought I would mention that Universal released it in Australia (and we know their stance on region coding), but more to the point, it explicitly states (in the Zone logos on the lower back cover) that it's for Zone A/B/C. Just thought I'd pass that onto you, and mention in the thread for others.

Once again, thank you for your time, and keep up the great work!
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Terminator 2: Judgment Day (Skynet Edition) [Blu-ray]
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The Terminator [Blu-ray]
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