Terminator 1 & 2 - Page 9

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

It's true that the general costumer either don't recognize the quality (ie my mother does not see the difference between SD or HD ) or they do see the increase of resolution but it doesn't do anything for them or they dislike it (my girlfriend has said a numerous times that she doesn't like HD because everything is too 'clear' - too much detail everywhere). Erm whatever, woman eh

I think studio's are desperate looking for things to add on their Blu Ray discs to really convince the general market that the jump from DVD to Blu Ray is as big as VHS to DVD was, but in my experience it is the upgrade in visuals and sound that sell Blu Ray to me, and not the BD-live, PiP or 'only on Blu-Ray extra's. And if you have a general costumer that does NOT care for an upgrade in visuals or sound in movies then I don't think the only on Blu Ray supplements (bd live, pip, bookmarks) will sell the format to him either. I think the studio's just have to accept that.

I would be against the idea of a Blu Ray suberbit edition of a movie to compensate for a lower bitrate release of a movie because it's packed with extra's. It would be like going backwards imo. I think given the price-tag regular Blu Ray's should always have the highest visual and sound quality as possible AND come with extra's that don't interfere with the quality of the visuals and sounds. If the extra's do interfere then add a second disc, if there's no money for a disc 2 then cut all the 'only-on-BD-supplements' so that you end up with only the core supplements as if it would be a regular DVD. Exclusive Blu Ray supplements probably take up a lot of disc space and imo don't sell the format to a general buyer.

It took me long to write this post, if only you understood Dutch, Mr Van Ling

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

I can definitely understand and agree with most of Steve's post, but having said that...

Studios still feel that its Blu's "super interactivity" which will sell the format. I wouldn't mind a 'BD Superbit', but one can argue that BD's should include the highest possible audio and picture in the first place. I am a little bit annoyed about Studio Canal's ridiculous decision for having 10 million languages on the disc.

I certainly don't mind buying T2 again for probably the 8,000th time, but to KNOW that there is a better version out there with a slightly higher bitrate is somewhat disappointing. Oh well, I guess you can't win them all. it's still going to be the BEST that I've ever seen T2 look and that alone puts a big, huge smile on my face.


on a random, funny note: whenever I watch the "I'll be back" scene, it always makes me chuckle. the amount of times T2 has been re-re-re-re-released, it's just incredibly ironic.

T-800: "stay here, I'll be back"

Me: "yup and me and my wallet will be prepared when you do"

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Release the film as a 2 disc edition and voila there is all the space the studios need for a) high quality audiovisual presentation, b) extra's

Now I know this is a pretty ignorant comment as I don't know how much it costs for the studio's to go from a 1 disc release to a 2 disc one. ^^ Do you by any chance know how much extra cost there is?

I think all in all if multipe disc editions really can't be done then we should be happy with one disc release that have the best possible audiovisual presentation and some good extra's (such as the Skynet T2 release), because some one disc release come to mind (Fox studio release of Predator, MGM's Robocop) that had a picture that was marginally better than a upconverted SD Dvd, regular sound and NO extra's at all, except for maybe a couple of trailers at full whack price. Slap in the face to be honest.

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

I think most of us would be willing to give up the motion menu's for a higher bitrate. Those menu's can get annoying plus sometimes they spoil the movie for newbies.

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Um... no.

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Martin, perhaps you should go back and take another look at Lemmykoopah's post.

he was saying that such releases like Fox's Predator and MGM's Robocop are pretty much a disgrace to HD enthusiasts. You decide to pay top dollar for a new TV, BD and/or PS3 player and when you whack your 50 bucks (depending where you buy your BDs and depending if you buy them during their launch date) you should expect something that is at the very least a good release. Something which looks noticibly better than an upscaled-DVD.

if the PQ and AQ isn't up to standard, then atleast give us all new HD content in the disc to make up for it. Fox's Predator is the example of a TERRIBLE BD.

They made ZERO effort in cleaning that up at all. I understand that not every film (depending on it's source) adapts well to HD, but Fox needs to send that off for some serious restoring. the fact they put that out in the market is a testament to how much Fox really don't care about the consumer. No features, No exclusive content, lame uninspired menus. It was a disaster.

Ultimately, Fox didn't put a gun to anybody's head and make them buy it, but to release something of such poor quality and charge maximum price for it, was a slap in the face. I understand that *RECENTLY* Fox have lowered the price on their catalogue BDs, but at the time, they charged the same price of that of a new release for Predator, and those who were fooled by it and purchased it certainly have a right to feel PO'd.

I bought mine without having read any reviews for it simply because Predator is a classic and one of the films I enjoy watching from time to time. I took it back the very same day and bought David Cronenberg's The Fly instead (a much better release ironically from the same studio).

Fox seem to be taking their BD support a bit more serious these days by packing endless hours of features in their catalogue BDs and attempting to give them a solid PQ & AQ presentation. But I'm ever so cautious when buying from them still. Atleast Warner set up a good exchange program to swap their first BD release of Full Metal Jacket for a better, Deluxe edition with features and MUCH better (albeit not perfect) PQ and gave it Lossless audio. Even if and when Fox releases a better Predator BD, they'll never ever be that gracious towards the consumer.

I believe Warner did a similar exchange with The Fifth Element on BD too, though I can't quite remember.

bottomline: restore Predator and put our Obi Van Kenobi here to work his magic on the BD .

hahaha, but seriously...I apologise for going on such a Fox/Predator related rant, but I just couldn't keep it to myself any longer.

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

No. I read it fine the first time, thanks.

Which Predator is. To say it looks anything like an upscaled image is ludicrous.

While Fox clearly couldn't be bothered to re-master Predator, it's far from being a terrible BD.


That would be Sony.

Keep it in next time.

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Okay, I decided to humour you Martin.

I decided to view Predator again so I gave it a rent. I did a direct comparison on my 1080p 40'' Sony Bravia between the DVD and BD.

I will admit, the daylight scenes are much nicer looking, but still with a very heavy layer of grain covering the picture. the grain seems largely amplified by the enhanced resolution on the BD during the night scenes.

Infact, most of the night scenes barely looked sharper than the DVD. a glorified upscale one could say. However, the day scenes looked pretty pleasing (for the most part) and I will admit that it's not quite the abomination which I originally thought it was.

while comparing the audio on my Onkyo set, I noticed that the bass was much stronger on the BD, but in terms of discrete effects and surround use, the BD did sound a little bit more "atmospheric" but not by much.

If I'm paying top dollar for a movie on BD, I expect a little bit more than just a "slight upgrade". If you convinced yourself that the Predator BD couldn't be better, then you're just kidding yourself that the money you spent on the BD was "totally worth it". Yes, it is the BEST the film has looked so far, but as a paying customer I refuse to pay full price for such a mediocre BD. The lack of features is a joke considering my Definitive edition steelbook DVD has a 2nd disc with hours of features.

Yes, act like you're superior with your brief, but arrogant comments like "ummmm, no" to Lemmy's well constructed post and your "Keep it in next time" but you know what? it's because of people like you that studios won't step up their game when releasing old gems on BD.

They'll put out slightly better BD transfers than the DVD versions, people like you will buy it and be happy about it because "it's still an improvement". Studios will see the money rolling in. "Oh, they're eating it up. Good, keep up the mediocrity boys!"

If I'm dishing out money for a format that's capable of much better, why am I only getting "slightly better"? I wouldn't've cared about the lack of features if the BD was a superb presentation, but it was not. I'm still glad I took it back when I did because at the time, it was definitely not worth £20 (which translates to roughly $38).

Go ahead and say "ramble, ramble" again. I know where I stand, and I actually care about quality. Nobody here can deny that Fox simply used their last master for the film, slapped it on a single layer BD-25 disc and released it to us "suckers". There was zero effort put into that release. Not good enough and I have every right to complain as a paying customer.

and yes, the same way I've wasted my time posting my "discontent" for the BD here, I e-mailed Fox about it way back too. I believe that more people should voice their discontent for mediocre products. It is the only way to 'fight back'.

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There's a difference between an actual bad release, and something that looks bad because of the source material. Now, I don't own Predator on Blu, but I know the film has had it's problems. If the only flaw you can find is the grain, I don't see the problem. It's supposed to be there. Not every movie is going to look as crystal clear as some of the newer films do.

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I saw predator countless times in theaters, and it was always grainy.

Still, if they go back to the original negative, I'm sure they can do better than the current BD-25.

I'm pretty certain that the forthcoming Lowry T1 remaster will look great. They should also tackle Predator.

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

I'm not at all deluded that Predator can look as good as 2001: A Space Odyssey or Blade Runner. I don't mind grain in films. My problem with Predator wasn't the grain. it was just an overall poor transfer. It wasn't quite the abomination as I originally remembered it to be, and if the source material is truly in bad shape and that particular BD is the best that Predator will EVER look then fair enough.

But I've seen films that looked so much worse in terms of source material get restored to near excellence (The Godfather). There's no denying that Fox are one of the greediest corporations out there, and they made ZERO attempt to make Predator look presentable as a HD film.

They're constantly screwing their directors over, but that's another matter entirely. I just don't believe that we as consumers should embrace and accept these "mediocre" releases that studios throw at us. They want to make a profit, everyone wants profit. It's what makes the world go around, HOWEVER, if you want your product to succeed, then be prepared to put some hard work and spend some money on it to make it presentable for the buyers.

a so-so transfer, no features, full price? I don't think so. these days, you can pick Predator up for 20 bucks or less if you know where to go. that's not at all bad, but to charge full premium price for a product that's so poor and lacking is obscene and this is exactly what I want Studios to realise.

I understand that Predator will never be "demo-worthy" material due to the circumstances of how it was shot and that it was relatively small budget, but I honestly don't think that the upgrade in sound and picture on the Predator BD is worthy of a re-purchase. I'm sticking with my DE steelbook 2 disc DVD until Fox is ready to show Predator (and it's fans) the respect it (and they) deserve(s).

I'm done ranting now. I was pleased with the original T1 release. it wasn't perfect, but the upgrade was definitely worthy of a re-purchase. I'm ecstatic for the Lowry restored print.

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Thank God.

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I understand your argumentation and I am afraid you are quite right. Most people I have shown Blu Ray so far do recognize the jump in quality, but they say it's not enough for them to make the jump to Blu Ray (even HD).

The way I see it, Blu Ray will eventually take off, just for the mere fact that in quite some time, no SDTV-only equipment will be available anymore. People will buy into HD just because it will be the only thing available when their old equipment will become unserviceable.

Concerning youtube: you may be right that youtube's most attractive feature is the easy access to a lot of content, but on the other hand, what most people will watch on youtube isn't necessarily the content they would purchase if this platform wouldn't have been available. There's a lot of junk in there which is consumed just out of curiosity, consisting mostly of small clips, perhaps documentaries, but hardly anything which will appear on both DVD and BluRay. I think youtube is a much bigger threat to regular television programme than home video formats.


Which really makes me sad, because Blu Ray (or HD in general) is one of the best experiences I had in the last few years. I personally am a visual oriented person, and for me, both DVD and Blu Ray were chosen because they provided a significantly better image than their previous formats (which was, for me, VHS). Only later (well not so much...), I discovered audio commentaries and featurettes for myself.

For me, a really cool feature of Blu Ray is the possibility of a video commentary.


It's kind of a vicious circle, because it seems most people seem to be content with what DVD can provide. The only way I could imagine is to stop releasing special/collector's editions on DVD, basically saying: if you want your movie cheap, then get it on DVD. If you are a film enthusiast, then take the logical choice and adopt Blu Ray. Of course this would only work if every studio would go the same route.


The problem I see is the division of an already small market into sub markets. Like:

- DVD regular consumers
- DVD film enthusiasts
- Blu Ray regular consumers
- Blu Ray film enthusiasts

To me, this scenario is much too complicated and confusing. As long as Blu Ray is still not a widely mass adopted product, you have to gather the film enthusiasts together. I think the next step of market segmentation should look like this:

- DVD = regular consumers
- Blu Ray = film enthusiasts

Which means:

- Stop producing DVD special editions and set a clear signal
- Include a coupon in the cheap bare-bones DVD release to offer the Blu Ray special edition at an attractive price
- Win ALL the film enthusiasts for the Blu Ray format by increasing the Blu Ray exclusive content

I already stopped caring to buy DVD special editions when I knew that HD was available, because at this point, DVD wasn't special anymore. I think a lot of the people, who care about films, could be pushed over the edge to buy Blu Ray this way.

Some folks might be angry now about what I propose, but consider this: what film enthusiast, who has seen Blu Ray, still wants DVD to be the main format of choice? To anyone complaing about the prices of Blu Ray hardware and equipment: well, that was exacly the same case of DVD back in the early days. My first DVD player cost over $400. I dare not to tell how much I spent on the first Alien DVD set... I am just amazed how MUCH you get now with Blu Ray for your money.

Would any studio dare to take these radical steps? I don't know. Perhaps my views are absolutely in contradiction to reality.

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I think there's been a very strong recuperation and dumbing down of the whole extras phenomenon, which really started with Criterion LDs and Van Ling extras back in the early 90's. (the phenomenon, not the recuperation)

Once it went DVD, studios began using extras as customers incentives, but not before a long time of hesitation. It took them a while to recognise this and shake the VHS (ie no extras) custom they had, initially those people just viewed DVD as a new way to sell movies only, and didn't care for extras, thinking it was for the laserdisc fans and geeks only, of course, not geek culture is the broad culture.

Today, one big documentary is truncated into several different parts just to have an extra line of content on the sleeve. Many documentaries are just promotional TV stuff put in just for the sake of it and labelled as "making of" where really they aren't in the Abyss making of, or Close Encounters making of league.

Thought I've been a big defender of extras for years, I now have been burned so many times watching documentaries which are just hollow promo stuff, that I don't bother anymore, unless of course it's a Ridley Scott movie, or Cameron (ie Van Ling), or anything by Laurent Bouzereau, where you know you know the quality will be here.

Blu-Ray asks a question, do we need all the existing extra added in SD at the expense of the movie space, or not ? I don't think I care if it's SD... just put it on a regular bonus DVD, or better, bundle the Blu-Ray with the DVD version + the extra discs (just make sure the zone is consistent ie don't include a Region 1 coded SD extra disc with a region free Blu-Ray, it doesn't make any more sense than Universal region free HD-DVDs combo discs which had Region Coded versions in DVD of the same movie on the other side ).

However, if the stuff is HD, I don't mind it to be included, as long as the movie encoding doesn't suffer too much.

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

I've tried reading much of this thread, but it's soooo looong. If it has been stated, I missed it. What versions of T2 will be on the BD Skynet version?

BTW, I recall reading a comment on how T3 crapped on the optimism of T2. This is the 2nd time that's happened to a Cameron film. Alien 3 really, really defecated on the uplifting end of Aliens. I guess if you end a film so, well, perfectly, there's a need to ruin it in a later film.

Cameron even refers to it in his commentary on Aliens. Ok, sorry for the side track and sorry to ask for redundant information.

Just thought I'd through my 2 bits in here about menus. If I had my preference, they'd be spare and lean. Let the Right One In is my kind of menu. I like BDs that are authored so that when you press stop, you don't get that dang resuming the film is "forbidden".

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I believe all of them.

The press release I received from the studio stated "multiple versions" which was somewhat vague, though from the sound of the hype it seemed that branching would be used to put all versions.

I'll contact the rep and see if I can get a more direct answer on that important question.

Re: Terminator 1 & 2

Van Ling,

thank you so much for your input here. I've added the following blurb to that section of my article:


Let me know if that puts the limitations of the first release into a better context for readers. I appreciate the heads-up.

So the new disc will be VC-1? So funny because the press release I got stated AVC.

I'm thrilled that we're finally seeing T2 brought to 1080p media in the fashion it deserves.

dave

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No fate but what we make, eh?

Excellent.


This makes sense. In another thread discussing this, the BD-Java was mentioned as an issue. I wonder if the player manufacturers are working on updating their firmware to terminate this problem. Seriously, I'm hoping a future firmware update will solve this problem. Thanks for confirming that it's the menu coding that causes it. Every disc I've got that doesn't have the problem, the menus are lean.

I am so looking forward to this release. This will be the first time I've seen it in HD and I've finally got a good sound system.

As corroboration of what you've written about market demands, I saw this post on the Blu-Ray forum. A poster stated he would only buy movies with lots of extras because he needed to stretch his dollar. Funny, I thought a quality movie that was re-watchable would be the best way to do that.

Don't get me wrong, I love extras as much as the next guy. An excellent commentary, a well done documentary are very worthwhile. Some of the best commentaries have been on older movies where a film historian has been commissioned to do the job.

The Terminator extras have been well done. Amazon is charging $20 for the skynet release. When you consider the prices charged for some movies that aren't near as good, it's a heckuva value.

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With all the talk about how to do extras, I'm reminded of my new copy of the Blu-ray "The Longest Day." It's extras are all on one DVD disk, and IT'S THE EXACT SAME DISK AS DISK TWO OF THE TWO-DISK DVD -- right down to the artwork. Result: The entire Blu-ray is dedicated to the movie and all extras are in (the same) place as before. It struck me as an elegant solution that should work for all the Blu-rays of Fox's "ultimate DVD" sets. Just run more copies of the old disk 2!

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Just one problem, you're buying a BD set with SD extras. I realize that it's not uncommon for the studios to do that, but I wish they'd remaster the stuff in HD.

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If the extras were shot in video to begin with, there's no point to do that. Sure, they could remaster the image galleries, trailers and deleted scenes, but if the supplements disc was very good to begin with, I wouldn't really mind.

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Van,

Slightly off subject, but I popped in T2 on Blu the other day and watched the "THX Trailer" for the first time. Holy Sh_t! I am still blown away by the footsteps and overall how the soundfield just came alive. Were you involved in creating it or can you tell me the history of how it came about (not just he deep note). Thanks.

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The Bond vintage movies are excellent examples of how you can remaster old making of into HD, upscaling content that cannot be redone, and redoing any insert of shot in HD that was previously in SD. It's not impossible, it's just a question of time and price.


I don't mind, as long as the SD stuff is not included in the BR disc, but as an added SD disc. I fail to see the point of SD content on a blu-ray disc, kinda goes against the grain, especially at this time where it's proving difficult to convince people to upgrade to HD.

Plus : with a PS3, you can't upscale SD content on a Blu-Ray disc. However, you can upscale SD content on a SD disc, so therefore, SD content on a BR is a double slap in the face of BR buyers. That's just my 2 cents, but I think many early Blu-Ray advocates agree with me. Blu-Ray should hold 100% HD content, put any SD content on a SD disc, that is, for now

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The Cinerama documentary on the How The West Was Won Blu-Ray did this too. The older video stuff was windowboxed inside the 16:9 frame, and the Cinerama footage used the entire width of the screen. It looked great


Well, the older SD stuff could be put onto a BD, if there was stuff added in HD. Like I said, obvious things like deleted scenes or trailers. Or newly made featurettes, for instance.