The Abyss

Re: The Abyss

We're all in agreement on that, Todd! In fact it HAS been remastered for 16x9, but is awaiting Jim Cameron's review and approval. Until that happens, no movement on doing the BD.

In the meantime, what features would you folks like to see on a BD version?

V

Re: The Abyss

1080p transfer and dts-Master Audio are an absolute must.

The original Special Edition DVD was pretty exhaustive with regard to extra features (nice job Van), the only one that I could think of that I'd want would be an Audio Commentary from Cameron and maybe Ed Harris or one of the other actors.

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Great news! I really like the film.

Yes, 1080p, lossless audio and both versions of the film. I would like to see all the old extras ported (let´s put it in this way; I want to finally get rid of that non-Anamorphic disc.. ).

What comes to new extras, audio commentary with Cameron would be great and perhaps a "new" featurette/documentary.

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all the trailers in glorious hd, if possible in oar too

how about a new documentary about the films failing at the box office and it's success on home video? this could be interesting how mr. cameron, the cast, the studio and others involved in the making of the film think about it today.

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Oh, but it HAS to have the doc thats on the DVD too! Thats one of the best ever made.

I think it should also have both versions of the film, theatrical, and extended. But, if we only got one version, the extended cut is the one i would want.

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a second a featurette or something in celebration of the 20th anniversary (next year) of the movie.. maybe have cameron or other cast members do a commentary track. I would think that once cameron is done with the new movie that he could do something with it? same with true lies? those are the only two films left that need some work/proper dvd/bluray edition?

Jacob

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I'll give another vote for a Cameron audio commentary and porting over all the laserdisc/DVD supplements too.

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Ditto. I would also like both versions, but I definitely prefer the extended cut (with some type of lossless audio obviously). I would also like to see most if not all of the features from the 2-disc DVD (great set BTW). If there was something new produced in HD for the disc that would be great, but it is not essential to me. It is more important to me to have the other features so that don't have to keep both.

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For a new "feature", can we have a 3rd(!) cut of the film w/ a better, maybe completely different ending? Like just about everyone else, I also prefer the extended director's cut, except for the ending, which I found utterly contrived and basically a cheat. If it has to be that ending, maybe there should be more foreshadowing toward it (if at all possible w/ additional material), especially considering the length (and pacing) of the film.

Hmmm... Hope I don't need a flame-suit for voicing that opinion.

And oh yes, a belated welcome from me, Van Ling. Can't wait to see more of your work particularly on BD.

_Man_

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No flame suit required, Man... ;-)

The real question is, why does the ending not work for you and what better ending would you expect to see? Does the ending not work narratively, or just visually, or both? If it's just that the NTI Ark looks incongruous in daytime on the surface with the ethereal light ship we see at the bottom (my main problem), that can be addressed. If the problem for you is that the whole NTI angle seems to come out of nowhere for many people, that's a much bigger problem.

Interestingly, there is foreshadowing throughout the film, and the NTIs do NOT come out of nowhere... they inadvertently cause the inciting incident in the film (the sinking of the Montana), they are present throughout the story, and also motivate Coffey to send the nuke down into the abyss... and we see on the newsfeed before the crash that the world has gone to the brink of war over the incident.

What is most interesting to me is that I think the reason people feel that the NTIs come out of nowhere is that by the final third of the film, we've had such a powerful HUMAN drama with Lindsey's drowning and resuscitation and Bud's deep dive that we forget that the NTIs are down there... so when they come back into the story, they feel kind of deux ex machina, if you know what I mean, even though narratively they were present throughout the film.

My issue during production was that once Bud defuses the nuke and meets the NTIs, the climax with the wave has no active human choice involved... Bud's just along for the ride. The NTIs make the threat and then hold off because they see by Bud's transmission to his wife that human beings are capable of more than just war. I think the goal was a "Day the Earth Stood Still" theme, but without any big speech by the aliens since having them speak English would have been even more ludicrous. I think I pointed out to JC at one point during the production that it's the same theme as "Plan Nine From Outer Space" ("You human beings are stupid! Stupid, stupid, stupid!")... and I have the scars to prove it... ;-)

Of course, The Fifth Element (which I liked a lot) used the same gag... after watching all those war videos, Leeloo feels mankind isn't worth saving and plans to let the planet get annihilated until Dallas plants one on her.

My thought was to have the NTIs save Bud and basically tell him that since he saved them by disarming the nuke, they'll save him and his crew on Deepcore from the Terminator-style Judgment Day that's about to go down on the surface... they're all going to be safe from the nuclear exchange and fallout in the abyss... but Bud has to convince the NTIs to try to stop the impending WW3... he has to make the case that if one human being can show selfless compassion, ALL of them have the capacity to do so and shouldn't be wiped out because of some paranoid, warmongering minority. And he succeeds, and proactively gets them to send the wave as a warning to the world.

The main narrative problem with this ending of mine (as JC pointed out to me during production) is that it involves coming up with a way for Bud and the NTIs to communicate on a more literal level than having them play back video clips (which was already done for comic effect in "Joe Dante's Explorers"), and at this point in the film we neither have time nor tone to introduce an entire new level of character interaction.

All of this is moot, mind you --I'm pretty sure Jim ain't gonna change anything-- but narratively it's an interesting discussion nonetheless!

V

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I cant remember if its Aliens, or the Abyss, but i read the effects for the extended cut were rendered in standard resolution. They would not be up to snuff for the big screen, or Blu-ray, i would assume. How would this be addressed Van?

Oh, and my thoughts on the ending, theatrical or extended... To be honest, i always hated the ending of the movie. It felt like another movie was about to start, and then it ends. I have learned to live with the ending, cause the other 95% of the movie is so good!

Re: The Abyss

The VFX for The Abyss were completed on film, since the Special Edition version of the movie had a limited theatrical release in 1993.

The VFX for Aliens was mostly completed on film, but some composites were completed only in standard-def during online... although this may have been corrected in the last decade or so. This is why you've never been able to see the Special Edition of Aliens in a theatre (unless it was video projection).

V

Re: The Abyss

I echo the sentiments of most of the people in this thread. A new commentary is a must, or possibly even two: one with Cameron and Gale Anne Hurd; the other with the various FX supervisors (Bruno, Muren, Yeatman, the Skotaks).

Input from cast/crew members who aren't featured heavily on the LD/DVD. I'm thinking specifically of production designer Leslie Dilley, costume designer Deborah Everton, the editors, and composer Alan Silvestri.

I sincerely hope that all the still-frame LD supplements are retained somehow.

And keep the trivia track. It's still one of the best of its kind!

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Hmmm... Maybe simply a bit more foreshadowing is not quite what's needed. I guess the crux of the problem for me (and probably for RickER and to some extent maybe even you, Van, judging from your own take) is that the whole NTI angle just didn't seem well developed and played out, and the ending was just too abrupt.

Not sure what could be done w/ that short of shooting a new extended 3rd Act.

OTOH, maybe I do need to revisit the film again since I haven't seen it in ages. Like RickER, I hated the ending, but unlike him, I ended up selling the DVD partly because of it, so I'll need to give it a rent if I want to see it again. Maybe I won't hate it as much now.

RE: the comparison to other films like T5E, while it's true the "gag" is used in many other films, the problem is those other films (when it works well enough) don't carry the same pretense (and weight) as The Abyss. By the time we get to the ending, we're -- well, I am anyway -- led to expect a serious, well conceived and developed, conclusion, and the ending certainly attempts to give us a serious (if perhaps a bit overwrought) one, but it fails in the well conceived/developed department. Like RickER said, it just feels like there should be a lot more -- perhaps a 4th Act.

In any case, Van, I greatly appreciate your followup (and insights) on this topic (and others too, of course).

_Man_

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Van, that's some great insight about the ending of The Abyss. I really do like this flick, but the initial novelty of the wave sequence has worn thin for me.

As you say, there's this wonderfully powerful human element to the story that thrives in the dank, claustrophobic environment of Deepcore, and as soon as we cut to a giant wave on a sunny beach it loses me. In a funny way the extended version exacerbates this feeling even more, as we've spent yet more time with Bud and co. only for a giant wave to show up that has no immediate bearing on these characters.

Yes, the aliens are the ones who kick off the story by fooling with the submarine, but what do they then do in the remainder of the film apart from pull CG faces? There's no sense of them actually driving the story along, only popping up occasionally to make Coffee a little crazier, so when they do decide to reveal themselves it does indeed feel like a giant deus ex machina in either version.

Here's hoping that we see the anamorphic version real soon.

Regarding Aliens:SE, the DVD version looks to have been put together on film. The minor alterations made for the initial video edit are gone (e.g. the fixed effects shots by the Skotaks and the corrected flamethrower/pulse rifle inserts as Ripley pulls them off the rack when she gets tooled up to search for Newt), so surely it must've been finally finished on film?

'preciate your time.

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I brought this up in the Terminator thread, but does Blu-ray technology allow for an easier way to navigate something like the extensive text supplements that were featured on titles like The Abyss?

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Ray, Blu-ray can absolutely allow for easier navigation... it all comes down to design and layout. I've been working on that kind of thing in theory, and am just waiting for a good opportunity to implement it... so I'm hoping that we can move forward on "The Abyss" on Blu-ray one of these days...

V

Re: The Abyss

Van. What's the hold up with Jim? We've been waiting years for an anamorphic version. Can't we tie him down for a few hours to give the transfer his blessing?

This is my favorite movie of all time (yes, it really is!)...I need to see this done right on BD and soon!

thanks

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Greg, it's harder than you think to tie him down to watch something, especially if it's a master transfer... it's not like popping in a DVD at his office and checking it out... it's about viewing it in a pro environment like a transfer bay directly off of the D5. Obviously, he wants to take his time, since he knows it's going to go out on disc that way... apparently, he's also been busy working on another movie or something... ;-)

We can only wait... remember, he wants to see it done right too, and he's not going to be pressured to put his stamp of approval on a transfer without actually looking it over carefully and also having the time to make any tweaks.

BTW, I noticed you're over at Cameron Crowe's site... did you know I worked on Vanilla Sky? My BFTR partner and better half Casey Cannon worked closely with Cameron and Nancy in post on the Life Extension stuff, and I helped with that and some VFX shots. Casey also worked on Jerry Maguire with him as well. Please give everyone at cameroncrowe.com our regards.

Thanks,

V

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Thanks Van, I appreciate the additional info and I will say hi to the folks at Vinyl Films for you!

All the Best.

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Just sticking my oar in here...

I never cared for the big wave...I prefer to think that the aliens are pacifists, and that their example (plus the OMG, there ARE aliens! effect) would shock humans into getting along better. The big threat with a big wave, IMHO, would launch humans into a big fight over how to wipe out these intruders.

"peace and love will win the day despite all your losin' " as they say.

Re: The Abyss

For Van Ling

One thing about Aliens special edition is the poor sound mix with the new additional storytelling items added. it stuck out like sore thumb, which is why I prefer “original” theatrical (1986) it has less of the tail, tail signs of dialogue mildly being heard in the left and right fronts. this type of mixing technique has cropped up in several films and when music often builds up the mixes are ether bringing down one or two faders while its still being sent to centre channel.

The idea I thought about Dolby stereo six-track discrete was 100% total isolating of common centre channel dialogue thou often the odd few dialogue pans are heard in Aliens at the refinery.

The Abyss used a fair amount of dialogue panning, but none of this foggy dialogue being heard on the left and right, which I can minimize with my home cinema set-up while still marinating a stereo wide feel.

if you get the time that is when relaxing from work, give Aliens original and special edition and Abyss original and special edition and reduced the level of the centre channel so that you’ll hear the slight minor errors between each.

Cheers for taking the time to read though and stay healthy.

Re: The Abyss

If I have to gripe about something in the movie, it would be the surfaced NTI Ark
Too much "miniature-look" of the whole scene including the surfacing.
It sticks out as a sore thumb in an otherwise visually striking and almost perfect movie.
If that was redone/touched up, I wouldn't complain...

Re: The Abyss

You’re referring to water and I think they film at slightly higher speed sometimes to reduce this. but it’s the more the water that sticks out over the model scale! Now if very, very, very, very large model had been commissioned for the shooting that would have sent the budget up.

Look at the large oil tanker in “The Spy Who Loved Me” (1977) that was a large model not large enough but large and yet the water is the biggest element to overcome.

It’s not what’s often in front of you, but rather around you. That’s what you should be looking at.

Looking at The Poseidon Adventure (1972) again the water is biggest challenge not for the actors but for the shooting model.

When going forwards with “Titanic” (1997) the scale fitted the picture spot on, thou I don’t think the shooting model was ever filmed wet. if that was CGI water then it’s the best illusion I’ve seen. Except the for the composite shots of people walking about that was slightly off, but not certainly not achievable 20 or 30 years ago.

I think what throw me off was (light and shadow) where the timing seamed out of place with reality. Star Wars Episode III where Yoda jumps on the back of a wookie, looked fake because of light and shadow the foot movement was what I was looking at, and it was the worse CGI I witnessed.

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How about a regular anamorphic non-BD release for those of us still stuck in the non-BD realm? Any talk of that happening? S'a bloody shame that Cameron seems to have been so lazy about releasing the film in 16X9 on DVD.

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Did anyone ever find the easter egg of your dog?

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Nope, no one found the easter egg of my dog, who sadly has since moved up to the kennel in the sky (it happened back in 2004 during my prodcing the SW Trilogy set). I've actually forgotten how to find him on the "Abyss" DVD now...but he does show up as an easter egg on the T2 Extreme DVD somewhere, more accessibly I think. ;-)

V

PS to Tommy: when JC finally approves a 16x9 transfer of "The Abyss", it will likely be released on both DVD and BD.

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I've seen the dog picture on my computer thanks to "DVDShrink", which lets you see EVERYTHING that's on a disc. I wrote down the title number to try and access it on my regular DVD player, but the buttons are locked out. Didn't know he was also on T2, will have to check that one. (Added- oops, just re-read that it's on the "Extreme Edition"- don't have that one.)

Another hidden thing I've seen on a few DVDs including The Abyss is a picture of reddish flowers on a black background- those must be a trademark of one of the authoring programs. Anyone know the story on that? I've never had them come up on a regular DVD player.