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Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

post #1 of 53
7/22/08 at 12:13am
Thread Starter 
I picked up T2 this weekend on BD and was excited to get it home however when I began watching it I noticed that it looked virtually no better or worse the the UE DVD does.

At presant I own 24 BD titles (just getting started) and all of them have of course been a vast improvment over their DVD counterparts which I also own but i'll be darned if I could see an improvment with T2, I even compared it to the DVD which made my suspicions even more apparent.

Anyone else notice this or am I being picky? If there is in fact no difference what happened with this title? Maybe a remastering is in order and a new BD issued later?
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post #2 of 53
7/22/08 at 4:47am

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

Quote:
Anyone else notice this or am I being picky?

No you're spot on......... which is why last year I imported the French HD DVD which contains the DC and the PQ is worlds better than the BD.

We're talking T2 here so it's only a matter of time before this gets released over and over and over again on BD.
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post #3 of 53
7/22/08 at 5:17am

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
I picked up T2 this weekend on BD and was excited to get it home however when I began watching it I noticed that it looked virtually no better or worse the the UE DVD does.

At presant I own 24 BD titles (just getting started) and all of them have of course been a vast improvment over their DVD counterparts which I also own but i'll be darned if I could see an improvment with T2, I even compared it to the DVD which made my suspicions even more apparent.

Anyone else notice this or am I being picky? If there is in fact no difference what happened with this title? Maybe a remastering is in order and a new BD issued later?
They'll be a Studio Canal release before too long. I'd wait for that one.
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post #4 of 53
7/22/08 at 5:25am

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_K
No you're spot on......... which is why last year I imported the French HD DVD which contains the DC and the PQ is worlds better than the BD.
Worlds better? The encode has a marginal increase in sharpness/detail, but it's still from the same master. I'm waiting for a completely new transfer before wasting my money again.
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post #5 of 53
7/22/08 at 5:56am

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

According to Peter Bracke's review of the disc, the video upgrade from the Xtreme Edition DVD to the BD wasn't tremendous -- but it was mostly due to the decision to shoot the film on Super 35. (I own the UE and there was EE galor in that transfer. All of that was cleared up with the release of the "Xtreme Edition" which was released the week that T3 had its theatrical debut. All in all, T2 has had three DVD releases: It was the first RSDL DVD ever released; and the UE and XE versions both included the theatrical and special edition versions of the movie.)

Here's an excerpt from Bracke's review of the BD:
Quote:
Most aspects of this presentation are just as good as before -- great blacks, clean and consistent contrast (aside from the Linda Hamilton character's numerous post-apocalyptic flashbacks, which have an intentionally overblown, slightly hazy look to them) and a nearly-pristine print. Yes, there is still grain visible, and sometimes it can be more distracting than on the standard DVD, simply because HD's finer resolution makes it more apparent.

Here's a link to his full review:
Blu-ray Review: Terminator 2: Judgment Day | High-Def Digest

Personally, I'm waiting for the Special Edition version of the movie to show up on BD. I would assume that that version would also include most -- if not all -- of the extras of both the UE and XE.
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post #6 of 53
7/22/08 at 6:10am

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Bolus
According to Peter Bracke's review of the disc, the video upgrade from the Xtreme Edition DVD to the BD wasn't tremendous -- but it was mostly due to the decision to shoot the film on Super 35.
Is that really a fair characterization of Bracke's review? While he parrots some of the usual criticisms of Super35, they don't figure into his appraisal of the Blu-ray disc. From the conclusion:
Quote:
Yes, the picture is really quite good and it's a clear upgrade over the previous standard DVD editions. However, the soundtrack is nothing new and the extras are minimal. It is also hard to imagine Lionsgate isn't going to release this one again (and again and again) with more extras.
The most important fact about the review is that it's over 2 years old. A lot has advanced since then, both technically and in our expectations.

M.
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post #7 of 53
7/22/08 at 6:36am

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

The first BD I ever watched on my system was THE SEARCHERS whose picture quality blew me away.

T2 was the second, and I was underwhelmed to say the least. To this day, I steer friends who want to see what BD looks like away from TERMINATOR 2 and toward sharper, more dimensional transfers.
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post #8 of 53
7/22/08 at 7:14am

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

Michael,

This was the part of Bracke's review which I was trying to call attention to:

Quote:
Yes, there is still grain visible, and sometimes it can be more distracting than on the standard DVD, simply because HD's finer resolution makes it more apparent.

IMO, his previous discussion of Super 35 in the paragraphs leading up to that statement simultaneously explain why the grain is (appropriately) there and why the disc may not look as good as the DVD as a result.

In any event this is *not* the disc that the fans want, so it probably doesn't matter ...
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post #9 of 53
7/22/08 at 7:29am

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

The problem, Joseph, is that Bracke's statement could apply to many films, regardless of their photographic format. And indeed, in his more recent reviews, Bracke has become one of the most grain-o-phobic of reviewers, the kind whose comments may well have inspired the kind of overly DNR'd transfers against which Robert Harris (and others) have recently mounted a concerted campaign.

IOW, the visibility of grain in the BD of T2 has nothing to do with it being a Super35 film, and everything to do with the fact the Blu-ray has enough resolution to show detail that standard definition DVD could not. There is plenty of grain to be shown in films shot with anamorphic (Panavision, Cinemascope, etc.) lenses, or even with spherical lenses, and a properly mastered Blu-ray disc will show that.

Again, I think the most salient fact is the date of Bracke's review. There was almost nothing against which to measure the quality of the T2 BD at that time. Besides, we all know there's a new version coming at some point, and my guess is it'll be around the time the new Christian Bale movie is released.

M.
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post #10 of 53
7/22/08 at 7:32am
Thread Starter 

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

I'm just glad to know that my eyes aren't playing tricks on me lol. Is it fair to say to say that this BD edition of T2 was pretty much a rush job?

I was also fairly certain, like a couple of you have said, that there will definitely be more editions coming, I was just disappointed that this one didn't live up to what I was expecting for BD, it's the first time I was let down by any BD disc thus far.
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post #11 of 53
7/22/08 at 9:53am

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

I'm willing to bet Lionsgate will re-release T2 next year as T4 will be coming out. I could see a new encode, lossless audio (or at least a DTS-HD track), and extended cut.

While I can imagine improvements being made on the compressioning side of things, I'm not sure T2 will look A LOT better unless a major resoration occurs. At least the current BD doesn't look DNR'd and film grain is visible. However, I also see some compression artifacting in some scenes. As mentioned, this was one of the very first BDs released on a BD-25 and MPEG-2, so some improvements should be visible.

I definitely do see improvements over the SD DVD UE, however, I agree the difference is not as dramatic as many releases. (I'm viewing on an ISF'd 60" SXRD A3000 and Panasonic BD30 at 1080p/24.)
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post #12 of 53
7/22/08 at 9:57am

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Z.
Worlds better? The encode has a marginal increase in sharpness/detail, but it's still from the same master. I'm waiting for a completely new transfer before wasting my money again.

Someone posted some good screenshot comparisons on AVS a long time back and the differences between the discs seemed quite small indeed.
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post #13 of 53
7/22/08 at 10:08am

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave H
Someone posted some good screenshot comparisons on AVS a long time back and the differences between the discs seemed quite small indeed.

Yes. In fact, I distinctly remember the difference being so slight, in my opinion, that I decided to not purchase the HD DVD and wait instead for the inevitable re-release when Terminator Salvation hits the theaters or BD.
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post #14 of 53
7/22/08 at 11:00am

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave H
Someone posted some good screenshot comparisons on AVS a long time back and the differences between the discs seemed quite small indeed.

This is my understanding also (meaning BD vs HD DVD). And I also don´t believe that the Blu-ray version is "no better or worse" compared to any SD DVD.. Blu-ray is still 1080p.

But yes, we need a new SE of this film (in Blu-ray) for sure. Improved transfer and all the extras.
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post #15 of 53
7/22/08 at 12:06pm

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

I had pretty much the same reaction when I first played the disc, too. I honestly didn't see much improvement from my UE DVD upscaled to 1080i. It is certainly not good BD demo material. I do not agree with the assertion that it has something to do with the Super35 film process, however, since the Gattaca BD looks much better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
I picked up T2 this weekend on BD and was excited to get it home however when I began watching it I noticed that it looked virtually no better or worse the the UE DVD does.

At presant I own 24 BD titles (just getting started) and all of them have of course been a vast improvment over their DVD counterparts which I also own but i'll be darned if I could see an improvment with T2, I even compared it to the DVD which made my suspicions even more apparent.

Anyone else notice this or am I being picky? If there is in fact no difference what happened with this title? Maybe a remastering is in order and a new BD issued later?
Reply
post #16 of 53
7/22/08 at 3:15pm

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Robertson
I had pretty much the same reaction when I first played the disc, too. I honestly didn't see much improvement from my UE DVD upscaled to 1080i. It is certainly not good BD demo material. I do not agree with the assertion that it has something to do with the Super35 film process, however, since the Gattaca BD looks much better.

Indeed, some of the most highly-rated High-Definition releases on the market- the PIRATES OF THE CARRIBEAN films, Peter Jackson's KING KONG, SUPER FUZZ- have been filmed in the Super-35 process. To equate filming in Super-35 with lousy high-def video is way off the mark.

Vincent
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post #17 of 53
7/22/08 at 4:12pm

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Z.
Worlds better? The encode has a marginal increase in sharpness/detail, but it's still from the same master. I'm waiting for a completely new transfer before wasting my money again.

Yep the PQ Directors Cut version on disc 2 of the HD DVD is "worlds better" when compared to the BD theatrical cut which honestly isn't hard thing to accomplish. That is when watching it in full motion on my display, I'm of course not basing this on [ahem]....screengrabs [chuckle].

Never bothered with watching the theatrical cut on the HD DVD.

Can the PQ on the HD DVD DC be improved? of course.

Should someone wait for the eventual BD double dip? yep, especially if that person prefers the DC.
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post #18 of 53
7/22/08 at 4:57pm

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

The UE looks very outdated now. It's lacking in detail and has very visible edge halos. The UE and the Blu-ray are night and day to me, although the 'Extreme' DVD runs the Blu pretty close because they're from the same master.

I've also owned the French and German HD DVD editions, and without a doubt the French version just wins out. It's slightly sharper and encoded that little bit better, with less noise than the Blu-ray. It's also the only version with lossless audio at this point in time.

As mentioned above, Lionsgate will surely deliver a better Blu edition to cash in on T4, but I can live with the current Blu version until then.
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post #19 of 53
7/22/08 at 5:55pm

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent_P
Indeed, some of the most highly-rated High-Definition releases on the market- the PIRATES OF THE CARRIBEAN films, Peter Jackson's KING KONG, SUPER FUZZ- have been filmed in the Super-35 process. To equate filming in Super-35 with lousy high-def video is way off the mark.

Vincent
However, T2 is an early Super35 film, and nearly all of the films you've mentioned used digital intermediates and of course were filmed on newer film stocks with tighter grain structures.
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post #20 of 53
7/22/08 at 6:25pm

Warning: Threadnapping!

What about the sound?

I wanted the 'import' HD DVD as well (DTS too boot!), butt 40+ bucks for a dead format disc & when we all know we'll see this again & again, yr after yr!

I picked up T2 on Blu this month; haven't done any comparisons yet.
Like 15 bucks used, so no BIGGIE!
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post #21 of 53
7/22/08 at 6:27pm

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

Here's the AVS thread with a number of comparison shots between the two discs if anyone is interested.

Terminator 2: Judgement Day Theatrical & Directors Cut French version*PIX* - AVS Forum
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post #22 of 53
7/22/08 at 6:44pm

Re: Warning: Threadnapping!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
What about the sound?

I wanted the 'import' HD DVD as well (DTS too boot!), butt 40+ bucks for a dead format disc & when we all know we'll see this again & again, yr after yr!

I picked up T2 on Blu this month; haven't done any comparisons yet.
Like 15 bucks used, so no BIGGIE!
Dude, you can get it for $15.00 new.
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post #23 of 53
7/22/08 at 6:49pm

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

The Blu-rays one saving grace is that I'm a sucker for cool motion menues. The one on the BD is pretty neat. Of course, so are the ones on the UE and EX editions as well. I think the quality is better than the UE, but, not as apparent with the EX when compared. Isn't the German release supposed to blow away all these others anyway? Does anyone own it?
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post #24 of 53
7/22/08 at 7:01pm

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by troy evans
Isn't the German release supposed to blow away all these others anyway? Does anyone own it?
German Terminator 2 HD-DVD: When & Where?? - AVS Forum
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post #25 of 53
7/22/08 at 7:22pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

I paid $17.99 for my copy at Best Buy.

Not really sure how Super 35 has anything to do with the way the film appears on BD, Live Free or Die Hard was also filmed in S35 and it looks beautiful on BD.

If the notion is true that older S35 films will look like T2 on BD I can't say i'm happy about that, but I highly doubt that's true, i'm sure that with a proper restoration T2 can look spectacular on any future BD reissues.
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post #26 of 53
7/22/08 at 9:17pm

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

Quote:
I wanted the 'import' HD DVD as well (DTS too boot!), butt 40+ bucks for a dead format disc & when we all know we'll see this again & again, yr after yr!

I paid about $22 shipped this past March.
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post #27 of 53
7/22/08 at 10:31pm

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Inspector Hammer!
I paid $17.99 for my copy at Best Buy.

Not really sure how Super 35 has anything to do with the way the film appears on BD, Live Free or Die Hard was also filmed in S35 and it looks beautiful on BD.

If the notion is true that older S35 films will look like T2 on BD I can't say i'm happy about that, but I highly doubt that's true, i'm sure that with a proper restoration T2 can look spectacular on any future BD reissues.


Older Super 35 films might appear a bit more grainy, but they should have considerably more detail than an SD DVD. Mid 80s films such as Silverado and Top Gun are likely to be fairly grainy, but T2 was made after Eastman introduced the t-grain film stocks and should look pretty darn good.

Doug
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post #28 of 53
7/22/08 at 10:48pm

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Older Super 35 films might appear a bit more grainy, but they should have considerably more detail than an SD DVD. Mid 80s films such as Silverado and Top Gun are likely to be fairly grainy, but T2 was made after Eastman introduced the t-grain film stocks and should look pretty darn good.
I often regret that Cameron and his team did so much to publicize the Super35 process. Now it's almost impossible to discuss T2 or The Abyss without someone trying to explain some visual element by referencing Super35. Funny how that rarely happens with films that people don't automatically associate with Super35, e.g., Black Rain, Ridley Scott's film from 1989, two years before T2; or Apollo 13 and Se7en from 1995; or (gasp!) The Fifth Element from 1997.

All of those are Super35 films. (And all of them were pre-DI, too.)

M.
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post #29 of 53
7/22/08 at 11:41pm

Re: Is it me or does the 'TERMINATOR 2' BD look no different than the UE DVD?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clinton McClure
I paid about $22 shipped this past March.
For the German?
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post #30 of 53
7/23/08 at 12:46am

Re: Warning: Threadnapping!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
What about the sound?
Just checked out the:
UE single disc SD DVD (better video if I remember right) DD 5.1 EX, DD 2.0, DTS 5.1 ES
UE two disc SD DVD (better audio if I remember right) DD 5.1 EX, DD 2.0, DTS 5.1 ES
EE SD DVD (W/HD DVD-ROM) DD 5.1 EX
(I owned a previous SD DVD release, long gone now)
Blu DD 5.1 EX, DTS 5.1 ES
(its WEIRD, they take the video from EE & audio for UE)

So, I DON’T level match. I believe it is absolutely imperative too do so for professional reviews. However, because I don't believe the avg. person would buy "every" edition, let alone "level match"; I don't. I will change the volume of different releases during evaluations of the same title, just not at the start.

Here goes:
1. UE DTS 5.1 ES
2. UE DD 2.0 Surround
I know; sick!
It should be the Blu & the Blu DTS etc. is close to the UE DTS etc.
Just the SD DVD is LOUDER & I get more detail from the voice-over.
The pathetic DD 2.0 scores high for the extra decay on the shotgun blasts in the hospital hallway. The DD 2.0 volume is lower than the DTS, on any disc. The EE volume is also lower than the DTS on any disc. The Blu does come in a very close third; therefore w/the non-EE (Edge Enhancement) on the EE (Extreme Edtion) I think the Blu its the best of both worlds of a US release.

I wonder if they tried too 'sweeten' the Blu audio & just 'soften' it up a tad too much?

Video wise, I thought the Blu had more contast, therefore more detail.

All of this is on my system, in my room, with my eyes & ears.
YMMV
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