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Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

post #1 of 33
7/16/08 at 8:00am
Thread Starter 
May I kindly ask, what entity has removed all user posts on the most interesting and highly frequented thread about the excessive use of digital manipulation, noise reduction and grain-removal on many recent Blu-ray presentations?

The democratic right of free expression of opinion in a proper discussion seems to have expired on this forum.

Obviously this move is proof enough that this open and decent discussion was too critical for the industry. I always thought this was a user controlled forum to discuss good and evil on the home video market.

Very disappointed. Thanks....
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post #2 of 33
7/16/08 at 8:28am

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

I have been wondering the same thing.


What happened here?


AW
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post #3 of 33
7/16/08 at 8:30am

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

Oh....

... and the thread by RAH about the recall of both "The Longest Day" and "Patton" is missing, too!

AW
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post #4 of 33
7/16/08 at 8:30am

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

It appears that Robert Harris has requested that a number of posts and threads that he started addressing the topic be removed. I assume that he has identified some better way of effecting positive change through diplomatic advocacy. In the mean time, if you need to express something freely (within forum guidelines, naturally ), you can always go here:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...-much-ask.html

Regards,
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post #5 of 33
7/16/08 at 8:33am

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

Johannes,

As the thread in question was an off-shoot of my original DNR thread, I requested that it be removed as the point has been made regarding the affected discs.

Mr. Epstein was kind enough to accede to my wishes.

This is not censorship.

RAH
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post #6 of 33
7/16/08 at 9:15am

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes S
The democratic right of free expression of opinion in a proper discussion seems to have expired on this forum.

Last I heard this was a private owned board with a strict charter of conduct... don't believe me? Start a thread about politics dealing with race and religious issues...

If Mr Harris wanted the threads pulled, I'm glad they co-operated, just like I would be if they did it in my favor.
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post #7 of 33
7/16/08 at 10:00am
Thread Starter 

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

Thank you, Russell, for educating me. I really do appreciate it.

My last two cents on this issue.

The industry seems to be in trouble. Lackluster sales of the highly-praised new high-definition "Blu-ray" format which should insure recovering software sales of a saturated and declining DVD market.

Blu-ray is not taking off, despite of evolving as the "winning format" over HD DVD. Warner is eager to try and push the format by announcing to lower their pricing structure in the fourth quarter.

Why?

-The economy, as an independent factor. In a receding economic environment with high gas prices and general high inflation, people just spent less on luxury goods they don't need for survival.

-The failure of all studios to educate the consumer about the revolutionary new capability of a 1080p resolution format. For the first time in home video history, Blu-ray and HD DVD offered a unique viewing experience by creating the illusion of projected film, with it's resolved fine grain structure intact along with highest resolution contained in the high-frequency information transported by an unfiltered 1080p stream.

What did the studios do instead?

They increasingly started to offer travesties of their original high quality 4k film scans on the Blu-ray format. Totally gone were the advantages of the 1080p format as described above. Low pass filtering, grain removal, edge enhancement and excessive DVNR robbed the transfers of all advantages the format has over the established DVD format.

Why did they do this?

Because most "self-appointed" reviewers complained about these advantages the 1080p format has to offer, namely representing the original film scan with all the limitations and advantages of the film medium: High resolution and film-inherent grain. (For me, film-grain is the most beautiful attribute, the "medium" "film" can offer.)

Most purists, cineasts and educated home video amateurs want to have a Blu-ray disc, transparent to the high quality 4k film scan, without tempering by means of excessive DVNR.

The studios declined and now the whole format is at stake.

RAH did stir up a hornet's nest. Another threat for a disconcerted industry. But he was totally right.

The only way to make Blu-ray flourish is to OFFER DECENT TRANSFERS TRANSPARENT TO THE MASTER, WITHOUT DVNR.

I will be silent now.
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post #8 of 33
7/16/08 at 10:41am

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken_McAlinden
It appears that Robert Harris has requested that a number of posts and threads that he started addressing the topic be removed. I assume that he has identified some better way of effecting positive change through diplomatic advocacy.

I understand the decision that was made, and I understand that 'free speech' as it is typically interpreted doesn't apply on a privately owned forum. I am appreciative however that Johannes S brought this to my attention via this thread so that I could be made aware that there was a decision made.

However, the part in bold above, as you correctly stated, is an assumption; and I would rest easier about the DVNR and grain-filtering issues if I heard that directly from Mr. Harris. Otherwise, it is too easy for people to concoct conspiracy theories or feel we are 'losing this fight', which the pessimist in me believes to be true anyway.
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post #9 of 33
7/16/08 at 10:53am

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes S
The industry seems to be in trouble. Lackluster sales of the highly-praised new high-definition "Blu-ray" format which should insure recovering software sales of a saturated and declining DVD market.

Blu-ray is not taking off, despite of evolving as the "winning format" over HD DVD. Warner is eager to try and push the format by announcing to lower their pricing structure in the fourth quarter.
Ugh. Not only is this entire statement not true (just read the multiple articles from the last two weeks that point out that both DVD and Blu-ray did better than expected), but it's another unnecessary format war post.
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post #10 of 33
7/16/08 at 11:31am

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

I'd like to thank those of you that reminded our readers that
this is a private forum.

At the request of Mr. Harris, we removed two threads. You
are going to have to trust that there was a legitimate reason
behind the decision.

(Thank you Ken McAlinden for your post above)

Furthermore, to show that we aren't attempting to censor or
stifle discussion on this forum, RAH's "A few words about Patton"
still stands proudly within this area, totally untouched, proving that
we aren't shoving any of your concerns under the carpet.

I would hope in the future some would give us the benefit of doubt
of making wise decisions rather than accusing us of trying to
prevent our members from openly discussing their concerns.

Finally, let me say that the studios got our point. Trust me, they
are well aware of our concerns. You have no idea how many of
the Internet leaders within this community have gone to bat for our
readers on these BD issues. To continue attacking the studios at
this point would probably not be in anyone's best interests. Let's
wait and see what happens with future BD transfers (after current
ones that could be "DNR" affected are out of the pipeline).
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post #11 of 33
7/16/08 at 11:57am

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

Anything IN the pipeline should be pulled that is DVNR affected. Not doing so will only result in more hostility towards the studios.

I, for one, am terrified what DARK CITY will look like, since New Line is abusive with noise reduction.
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post #12 of 33
7/16/08 at 12:16pm

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesse Blacklow
Ugh. Not only is this entire statement not true (just read the multiple articles from the last two weeks that point out that both DVD and Blu-ray did better than expected), but it's another unnecessary format war post.

Quite true.

I've had enough of the Blu-ray doomsday scenario. I'm looking at all of those announced titles I'm going to be buying.
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post #13 of 33
7/16/08 at 12:39pm

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave H
I've had enough of the Blu-ray doomsday scenario.

Amen.
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post #14 of 33
7/16/08 at 1:40pm

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein
Finally, let me say that the studios got our point. Trust me, they are well aware of our concerns. You have no idea how many of the Internet leaders within this community have gone to bat for our readers on these BD issues. To continue attacking the studios at this point would probably not be in anyone's best interests. Let's wait and see what happens with future BD transfers (after current ones that could be "DNR" affected are out of the pipeline).

Thanks for the reassurance, Ron.
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post #15 of 33
7/16/08 at 1:49pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein
To continue attacking the studios at
this point would probably not be in anyone's best interests.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cassy_w
.... Not doing so will only result in more hostility towards the studios......



Letting the studio executives know what educated consumers really want, is an act of friendship and patronage, rather than hostility. I call this "constructive criticism" not "attacking" or "insulting".
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post #16 of 33
7/16/08 at 4:39pm

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes S
Letting the studio executives know what educated consumers really want, is an act of friendship and patronage, rather than hostility. I call this "constructive criticism" not "attacking" or "insulting".
You can call it anything you want, but if it's perceived otherwise then your words become counterproductive if your true message is being tune out by those you're trying to impress upon about the significance of their actions. Now, if you don't care about changing what's happening with these HD releases and just want to make sure you're issuing "constructive criticism" by being passionate then go ahead and knock yourself out, but at the end of the day, what has that accomplished that's worthwhile and beneficial to us all?
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post #17 of 33
7/16/08 at 5:53pm

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

RAH's last wonderful "Yellow Layer" article on DNR over at The Bits has also been pulled

Wish I could have saved this stuff...
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post #18 of 33
7/16/08 at 6:00pm

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

I wish the forumites on our site had half the passion of the gang on these forums. Of course, when passions are running high, things can come across as hostility, especially when dealing with industry thin-skins. I deal a lot with PR companies, and they're easy to upset. A kind word achieves a whole order of magnitude more than a harsh one. You don't want to go overboard and sound sycophantic, but praise where it's due rather than criticism for what may be to them a niggling detail will probably have better results.

At the moment, the industry is listening to people it trusts - reviewers - rather than consumers. The reviewers need to be convinced about what makes a high-definition picture look right. We, and I'm not counting myself as a reviewer in this case, know what a movie should look like. The industry knows what a movie should look like. The problem is that the industry is listening to a group of people who patently don't.
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post #19 of 33
7/16/08 at 8:09pm

Censorship? Come again?

This forum deserves better.
Proof is in this very thread,
Hope the thread title can be changed & the OP's accusations corrected.
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post #20 of 33
7/16/08 at 8:31pm

Re: Censorship? Come again?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
Hope the thread title can be changed
That would probably just give the OP more ammunition.

M.
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post #21 of 33
7/16/08 at 9:19pm

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johannes S
May I kindly ask, what entity has removed all user posts on the most interesting and highly frequented thread about the excessive use of digital manipulation, noise reduction and grain-removal on many recent Blu-ray presentations?

The democratic right of free expression of opinion in a proper discussion seems to have expired on this forum.

Obviously this move is proof enough that this open and decent discussion was too critical for the industry. I always thought this was a user controlled forum to discuss good and evil on the home video market.

Very disappointed. Thanks....

No matter how much a site/person wants to position themselves as independent of studio influence the fact is at the end of the day they still have to work with them. You can only bite the hand that feeds you so many times until that hand comes back at you with a rolled up newspaper and swats you in the nose rather than passing you a treat.

Be greatfull that the subject was at least brought up and stirred up enough attention that something might actually be done about it in the future.
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post #22 of 33
7/16/08 at 10:29pm

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

Quote:
I've had enough of the Blu-ray doomsday scenario

But it is doomsday for Blu-ray....
http://www.nbcuniversalstore.com/img...d=60628&s=catl
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post #23 of 33
7/17/08 at 4:42am

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

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post #24 of 33
7/17/08 at 5:47am

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_K
Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

And that, my friends, wins the thread. Best close it now.
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post #25 of 33
7/17/08 at 6:35am

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich

I'd prefer the tag line: "DVNR has an expiration date".



Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim_K
Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!

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post #26 of 33
7/17/08 at 12:56pm

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

I knew that the "DNR" & "Recall" threads vanished.
And, thanks too this thread: "TYL" on "TDB".
Now I notice the entire "LD" thread is gone & the "Patton" review "post".
WoW
RAH is REALLY cleaning house.
Hope its worth it, cause a lot of time & effort, as well as good info were contained in all that disappeared.

KEEP FIGHTING, THE GOOD FIGHT!
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post #27 of 33
7/17/08 at 6:27pm

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

I am looking foward to seeing what changes the studio decide to make in regards to the use of DNR. I hope that the use of DNR for HD content will be discontinued. HD titles make up at least 90% of my purchases so it is important to get the best quality available.

Let's hope there is good news soon that point towards the death of DNR.
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post #28 of 33
7/18/08 at 2:23am

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

RAH pointed out from the start that what he started was not simply about complaining nor was it only about Patton and TLD.

It seems to me that he thinks that the threads and articles he started/wrote had the desired impact and therefore he requested them to be removed. I certainly hope the industry will produce better transfers for all of us as a result.

Remember that in the end we have to work together with the software vendors to get superior product not against them - we cannot take over their libraries and produce the discs ourselves.
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post #29 of 33
7/18/08 at 7:25am

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

The only thing I'm mad at over this issue is that I wasn't able to save some of those HIGHLY informative posts (and "the bits'" article) . I totally understand the request for removal, however.
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post #30 of 33
7/18/08 at 11:57am

Re: Censorship? Where are the DVNR and grain-filtering threads gone?

I trust that RAH and others who are spearheading efforts to communicate the feelings of the HT community about DNR are going about it the right way. We're always free to express our own opinions directly to the studios if we choose.

Perhaps these "redactions" are indicative of some kind of understanding with the studios to the effect that "we got the message and are taking measures to correct the situation, so please call off the dogs now."

Meanwhile, to those who really want to find original words for the information they contain, if you Google and find the article or thread, try clicking on the "Cached" link and see what you can find. If it was written, it's still out there.
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