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Warner and the question of lossless audio - Page 2

post #31 of 56
7/17/08 at 7:53am

Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Just when they put out terrific versions of NBK and the Dirty Harry films, we get "barely better than DVD" releases. I'm not going to buy these. As much as I love LA Confidential and Blow, there's no way I'm wasting money on substandard audio. Thanks Sony, Disney, Fox/MGM, Lions Gate, and now Paramount for committing to lossless audio on future releases.

Thumbs down Warner. To think that George Feltenstein was once the gold standard of home video, this is really discouraging.
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post #32 of 56
7/17/08 at 8:49am
Thread Starter 

Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

the audio on most of the releases without lossless is far from substandard.
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post #33 of 56
7/17/08 at 10:18am

Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
the audio on most of the releases without lossless is far from substandard.

I guess that goes to the heart of the discussion.

What should the "standard" be for audio on BD releases? Are lossy 5.1 tracks literally "substandard."

Should all BD audio be lossless? Can that be done? I'm sure most HTFers would like it if it were done. But is it feasible (enough space, too costly)?

Does lossless make sense for an old mono or stereo soundtrack? I certainly don't see where it would hurt. The more accurate the representation of the audio the better, right? It's that simple. Less compression is better.

From what I've been reading on these boards (written by people who know a heckuva lot more about this than I do), I am left with the impression that BD discs have more than enough capacity to hold high quality video transfers, lossless audio tracks and a whole lot more.

So why not lossless audio on all BDs?
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post #34 of 56
7/17/08 at 11:12am

Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

WB's marketing dept. doesn't believe its worth it (ala higher bit rate SD DVD audio releases).
"We" will have to prove them wrong or else "they" will continue too do so.

During the "war", wasn't a battle cry of the Blu's that every BD release would have at least an LPCM soundtrack?
[no fighting/the war is over]
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post #35 of 56
7/17/08 at 11:46am

Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Good news regarding 'Blow' and 'L.A. Confidential' per thedigitalbits:

Quote:
Okay folks... I've got some very good news for you all. I've been having conversations with senior personnel at Warner Home Video this morning, about all this panic and concern regarding the rash of Blu-ray Disc titles recently announced with Dolby Digital 5.1 audio only and also set to be released on BD-25s rather than BD-50s. As you all know, this is a legitimate issue to be concerned about, because it directly reflects the potential A/V quality of the release, and Warner's commitment to the format. The titles in question at the moment are Blow, L.A. Confidential and Speed Racer, all of which were indicated to be BD-25s with Dolby Digital 5.1 audio only in the press releases. And here's the good news: Warner's senior catalog team has confirmed to me directly that Blow and L.A. Confidential at least are actually being released on BD-50s with Dolby TrueHD audio. I'm awaiting a similar update on Speed Racer. It seems that incorrect information has been finding its way into the recent press releases for these titles (and the studio's press website) - a situation which we presume is going to be rectified. Warner is absolutely aware of all your concerns over this (I expressed them directly to the studio myself, and Warner has been monitoring the discussion groups as well), and they asked me to let everyone know that they get it, they understand the concerns and they're 100% committed to quality on Blu-ray. I was told just moments ago, in fact, that the intention is for all Warner catalog titles to feature lossless audio and for all previously-released DVD extras to carry over to the Blu-ray editions if at all possible. Like I said, I'm still waiting to hear more regarding Speed Racer and new release BD product in general, but the news on the catalog side is all good: Blow and L.A. Confidential ARE BD-50s with Dolby TrueHD audio. So for all those of you who've been sending me understandably angry or concerned e-mails about this issue, you can now rest easy on that score at least.

Back with more in a little while...


Hopefully, Speed Racer was a similar snafu...
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post #36 of 56
7/17/08 at 11:57am
Thread Starter 

Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

that is very good news.
let's hope for the same on SpeedRacer.
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post #37 of 56
7/17/08 at 12:02pm

Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Given the conversation I just had at lunch with a friend of mine who works in the marketing dept. of a big company--it is not surprising at all that such mis-information gets into PR releases. Ah well. Here's another vote for hoping Speed Racer is also slated for the "gold standard" treatment like LA Confidential.
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post #38 of 56
7/17/08 at 12:18pm

Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed St. Clair
During the "war", wasn't a battle cry of the Blu's that every BD release would have at least an LPCM soundtrack?
[no fighting/the war is over]
Got it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterTHX 09-26-2006 10:40 AM Re: Blu-ray / HD DVD War...the end is near #2873 of 6253
All Sony & Disney titles are multichannel PCM...
So, NOT about "all" & NOT about "WB".
(however, it was almost two yrs ago! ;-) )
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post #39 of 56
7/17/08 at 12:25pm

re: Warner and the question of lossless audio

Even BETTER news ^^^:
thedigitalbits:
"I was told just moments ago, in fact, that the intention is for all Warner catalog titles to feature lossless audio and for all previously-released DVD extras to carry over to the Blu-ray editions if at all possible."
Thanks, Paul!
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post #40 of 56
7/17/08 at 12:32pm

re: Warner and the question of lossless audio

Good news indeed.
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post #41 of 56
7/17/08 at 12:33pm
Thread Starter 

re: Warner and the question of lossless audio

Ed that is great news, if the intentions are followed through.

also up until today, really there has been no indication that Warner was going to try to add lossless
to anything other the high profile.

And now we know that they "intend" to put it on cat titles.
Now waiting to here from Warner about non cat releases.

It would be very surprising if Racer didn't get it.

btw i didn't request the (nothing it seems: see post 35) in the title. someone did that on their own.
I don't think it was appropriate as it changes the tone of my intention in posting this topic.

if Warner starts putting lossles on nearly every release then maybe it is an appropriate thread title modification, but not yet.
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post #42 of 56
7/17/08 at 12:52pm
Thread Starter 

re: Warner and the question of lossless audio

btw i didnt put the (nothing it seems) in the title of this topic.

plus I don't know why it was added.

seems like someone has editorialized the topic in the title without adding into the actual discussion.

also Warner has only said they "intend" on adding lossless to Catalog

we still don't know about non cat releases, although it would be very surprising if it wasn't mentioned very soon.

so i don't see the thread title modification being appropriate until we are sure that Warner will release a large majority or ALL movies with lossless audio.
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post #43 of 56
7/17/08 at 12:56pm

re: Warner and the question of lossless audio

I'm glad I refrained from shooting my mouth off before there was some clarification on Warners behalf. It looks like the news is generally good. All that is needed now is a clarification regarding SPEED RACER.

IMO, it would be a big mistake not to have a lossless track on that release. In fact, it would make no sense at all to drop a lossless track from the SPEED RACER release.
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post #44 of 56
7/17/08 at 1:02pm

re: Warner and the question of lossless audio

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
also up until today, really there has been no indication that Warner was going to try to add lossless
to anything other the high profile.
I doubt that "Every Which Way But Loose" is high-profile, nor is "Rest Stop: Don't Look Back", but they're getting TrueHD.
Quote:
And now we know that they "intend" to put it on cat titles.
Now waiting to here from Warner about non cat releases.
It would be truly odd if they didn't.
Quote:
btw i didn't request the (nothing it seems: see post 35) in the title. someone did that on their own.
I don't think it was appropriate as it changes the tone of my intention in posting this topic.

if Warner starts putting lossles on nearly every release then maybe it is an appropriate thread title modification, but not yet.
Well, the concern was answered by Warner, IMO. And yes, "nearly every release" (apart from TV sets) is getting lossless.
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post #45 of 56
7/17/08 at 1:06pm

re: Warner and the question of lossless audio

So, my "it must be some other reason" (bad information in this case) idea turned out to be true.
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post #46 of 56
7/17/08 at 1:21pm

re: Warner and the question of lossless audio

Great news about L.A. Confidential (as well as Blow) and I would imagine that Speed Racer will also get the proper audio treatment.

Of course, I wasn't really that worried and figured it had to be some kind of mistake.
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post #47 of 56
7/17/08 at 1:59pm

re: Warner and the question of lossless audio

I am VERY relieved about L.A. CONFIDENTIAL. As one of the greatest movies of the last ten to twelve years, it absolutely deserves the finest Blu-ray has to offer: high video bitrate and lossless audio. I'm so glad to see that those are probabilities.
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post #48 of 56
7/17/08 at 3:24pm

Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio? (nothing, it seems; see post

Quote:
Originally Posted by MattH.
I am VERY relieved about L.A. CONFIDENTIAL. As one of the greatest movies of the last ten to twelve years, it absolutely deserves the finest Blu-ray has to offer: high video bitrate and lossless audio. I'm so glad to see that those are probabilities.

I wasn't as eloquent as you Matt, but this too is how I feel about L.A. Confidential. It is one of my all-time favorites and I've been waiting for a while for it to get a good SE (and now a good HD SE).
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post #49 of 56
7/17/08 at 4:31pm

re: Warner and the question of lossless audio

Quote:
What should the "standard" be for audio on BD releases? Are lossy 5.1 tracks literally "substandard."

Yes. Even on a 1940s optical mono track, your ear can tell the difference between the original lossless signal and a data-reduced MP3 or lossy Dolby version. Those of us who enjoy classic black-and-white movies on laserdisc know about that all too well.

Quote:
Should all BD audio be lossless? Can that be done?

Yes. Blu-ray has more than enough room and bandwidth. Even BD25, with AVC or VC1 and TrueHD or DTS-HD MA can easily do lossless audio for a 2.5 hour movie.

Quote:
I'm sure most HTFers would like it if it were done. But is it feasible (enough space, too costly)?

Feasable. and it costs no more to provide lossy than to provide lossless.

Glad to hear that the bruhaha over these three titles may just be poor communication internal to WB. Speed Racer in lossless... I'm listening...
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post #50 of 56
7/17/08 at 6:14pm

re: Warner and the question of lossless audio

Thanks, David...but most of those questions were rhetorical (leading up to my statement in the penultimate paragraph in my post and the final question--which was my way of saying (although apparently not too clearly) why would the studios use anything BUT lossless? That's the point of the technology!
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post #51 of 56
7/17/08 at 7:25pm

re: Warner and the question of lossless audio

Hey Mike,

I figured that some of those musing questions were rhetorical, but there are plenty of readers who might not know the (correct) answers... so I figured it was worth taking the time anyway.

For instance, there is a general assumption that "old soundtracks" won't benefit from lossless because they have analog limitations with noise and frequency response.

That line of thinking completely misses the point of lossy versus lossless: lossy dolby digital has never compromised soundtracks with noise or dynamic range compression... so those aren't the things that are "fixed" by going lossless. The things that are "fixed" by going lossless affect any audible signal: lossy compression reduces the timbreal realism and removes the sense of air from a mix and tends to deaden the sound in comparison to the original (especially in regards to acoustic decays). And that's true even for 1940s mono film soundtracks just as much as for Batman Begins.
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post #52 of 56
7/17/08 at 8:39pm

re: Warner and the question of lossless audio

Dave:

Why are some BD discs released without lossless audio?

Do we know for certain? Or, what's the speculation?
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post #53 of 56
7/17/08 at 9:44pm
Thread Starter 

re: Warner and the question of lossless audio

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
"also up until today, really there has been no indication that Warner was going to try to add lossless to anything other the high profile."

"I doubt that "Every Which Way But Loose" is high-profile, nor is "Rest Stop: Don't Look Back", but they're getting TrueHD."

thats why i said up until today.. oh well.

"Well, the concern was answered by Warner, IMO. And yes, "nearly every release" (apart from TV sets) is getting lossless."

I hope so.

I appreciate the responses but it seems like some are taking it personal
for me to question Warners lack of lossless on hdm up until this point.

Really, until yesterday there hasn't been any indication they will be
using lossless on anything but major titles.


all i was attempting was to make an awareness and show my concern for
what warner's plans are for lossless.
no different then other people showing concerns about the way video
is being presented on some releases.

as Mike mentioned, what reason is there to not have lossless
on every release same as universal and apparently Fox.

thats part of the point of this format.
hd picture and lossless capaility.

too bad those video problem topics were asked to be removed.
can there be no controversial things to talk about.
I do know Mr. Harris requested his topic be removed.


anyway, thank you Warner for starting to add lossless to releases.
i hope it is added to everything from now on.
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post #54 of 56
7/17/08 at 10:19pm

Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio? (nothing, it seems; see post

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
So, my "it must be some other reason" (bad information in this case) idea turned out to be true.
If it was bad information, it came straight from Warner.

Look here at the back of the jacket of Blow. The only audio listed is "Dolby Digital English 5.1".

Nonetheless, whether it was an oversight or if they're reacting to all the uproar on all the forums, it's great news.
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post #55 of 56
7/18/08 at 2:13am

Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio? (nothing, it seems; see post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Adkins
If it was bad information, it came straight from Warner.

Look here at the back of the jacket of Blow. The only audio listed is "Dolby Digital English 5.1".

Nonetheless, whether it was an oversight or if they're reacting to all the uproar on all the forums, it's great news.


Pre-release box art is often a mock-up and doesn't always have complete or accurate information. But then again how often have we seen releases that list a 1.85:1 aspect ratio, when the film was originally 2.35:1, only to have the film itself correctly framed on the disc.

Doug
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post #56 of 56
7/18/08 at 6:36am

Re: What does Warner have against hi res/lossless audio? (nothing, it seems; see post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Adkins
If it was bad information, it came straight from Warner.
In addition to the points that Doug raised, we should probably be cautious about pre-release information for any New Line film at the moment. With Warner in the process of absorbing New Line, who knows what kind of personnel changes and confusion may be muddying the waters?

M.
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