"DNR" Feature on Panasonic Players...  

My Panny '10A has a circuit dubbed "DNR" -- Digital or Dynamic Noise Reduction -- which pops up under the onscreen VIDEO tab menu...when playing DVDs, this circuit clearly reduces some of the mosquito noise and block noise; not to a great degree, but some...but when playing Blu-rays, this circuit does not seem to matter whether it's on or off; I also read a review of a Samsung BD player in which the company themselves provided a list of the player's features, and there was a part where it mentioned "...DNR is only available with DVD playback...it does not work for Blu ray Disc or HD DVD..."

Is this true? Is this why I don't see any difference when switching between on and off on the DNR when watching Blu rays? The grain in grainy films remain, as does "dithering" and what I see as "whispy video noise" even when this is switched ON...should I just leave the DNR OFF when playing BDs if it's not making a difference?

Re: "DNR" Feature on Panasonic Players...

Anyone have any thoughts on Panasonic's DNR?

Re: "DNR" Feature on Panasonic Players...

Does anyone have any information on the Panasonic 'BD10A's "DNR" Noise Reduction feature? Last night I watched 30 Days of Night on BD, and couldn't really see the DNR eliminating any "noise" or "dirty grain" (which I guess was baked into the transfer as film grain) being eliminated when I switched it on; I left it off for the remainder of the feature...

Does DNR work for high definition playback, and should it just be turned OFF if it doesn't?

ANY insight would be greatly appreciated...

Re: "DNR" Feature on Panasonic Players...

Thank You for Getting Back to me, Clinton, But...

Looks like you might have answered your own question. If Samsung said the DNR function does not work on Bluray and you are not seeing a difference while watching Bluray material with it turned on, then the proof is in the pudding, so to speak.

I understand Samsung stated this in their descriptive specs on the Crutchfield site, but I was wondering if that was only in regards to their circuitry and implementation of the DNR feature; I just supplied that information for general information. I'm wondering if on the Panasonics, this circuit works; it's there to choose from when playing back DVDs and Blu rays on the Panasonic players, but doesn't seem to "work" when running Blu ray material...

Do you have any information or insight as to whether or not "DNR" works on high definition media?

That being said, I'm not a fan of DNR, forced or otherwise. From my experience, it takes away from the presence of the film, much like using DSP audio modes or adding EE to a picture because it looks soft. Guess what...It's supposed to look that way. See the Patton on BD thread in the HD software section for the pros and (mostly) cons of grain removal on BD.

I understand your position; but on DVDs, I can clearly see the DNR circuitry taking out random block and mosquito noise without reducing detail on this Panasonic -- it's the Blu-ray DNR issue I'm concerned with...is there any "noise" to speak of on high definition that can be "removed" with a DNR circuit?

To answer your second question, leave the DNR feature turned off to enjoy the film the way it should be viewed.

Well, as I have already stated, the DNR seems to work to my enjoyment on DVD playback -- what I was asking was, IF there is PROVEN evidence that DNR does not work with high definition, then should the switch just be left off?

Re: "DNR" Feature on Panasonic Players...

Cees,

Thanks very much for your thoughts, but I'm still a bit confused!

So if Samsung is saying DNR doesn't work on Blu ray and HD DVD, does that mean it MAY work on Panasonic players?

Re: "DNR" Feature on Panasonic Players...

Wow; this is all news to me! I've been hearing that noise reduction doesn't really work or need to be implemented on HD sources -- it doesn't seem like the Panasonic chip, as you put it, is acting "fast enough" or whatever it is because I don't see a difference when switching it on and off.

The thing is, Samsung was making it sound as if their word was the last word on the issue -- in other words, they claimed "DNR DOES NOT WORK ON BLU RAY DISC AND HD DVD..." and it seemed like that went beyond just their own equipment...

Re: "DNR" Feature on Panasonic Players...

The BD10 online manual I found does not mention DNR not working with BD. However from the BD30 manual:

Thanks so much for your insight, Lew...

Yes, my '10A manual doesn't say anything about DNR working or not working for either Blu ray or DVD; I see with my own eyes that it reduces mosquito noise with DVD, so I leave it on...the thing is, with the clip you provided from the BD30 manual, that 3-D Noise Reduction is different than what I am referring to -- the 3-D Noise Reduction is a feature that opens up if you use the USER settings to adjust picture quality upon playback of any disc -- I leave all my playback at NORMAL on my Panasonic, and then the only noise reduction option open to me is "DNR" -- there's just still no way of knowing if this circuit works on removing noise from high definition discs...

From Cees’ reply: In this case RTFM should be taken to mean to contact Panasonic.

I may need to contact Panasonic based on Cees' and your reply...

Personally I think that there is ‘proven evidence’ that DNR reduces the picture from what was intended by the filmmakers, so I leave it off. Your experience indicates otherwise, so I’d say that even proven evidence might be at variance with your experience. Just turn in on and see if you are happy with the result—or if you think that there is no difference one way or the other.

On DVD playback, as I have said, there is noticeable reduction of mosquito or "block" noise so I run DVDs with the DNR ON...but with Blu rays, I don't see any difference between on and off; the thing is there are just so many Blu rays in my collection that could benefit from a circuit like this -- noisy, "staticky" transfers...I wish the circuit would work, but from my naked eye, it doesn't look like it is...

Re: "DNR" Feature on Panasonic Players...

Adam,

Thank you so very much for your input here -- it is getting closer to what I'm trying to figure out!

Yes, the manual does say what you outlined here...but I don't think it actually specifies whether the DNR will actually do anything on Blu ray playback -- it just lumps "BD-VIDEO" with "DVD-VIDEO" in that outline of the DNR feature...but I find the EXACT same thing with switching between on or off with Blu ray playback -- it doesn't seem to be getting rid of any "mosaic-like noise" or any noise whatsoever upon Blu ray playback...the DNR on DVD sure works, but not to my eyes on BD...what did you end up leaving your setting on when you owned the 10A? On or off? Did you use the NORMAL picture mode, too? And what deck did you move up to from the Panasonic?

I was leaving the DNR off all this time for Blu ray playback -- but you know something? Perhaps I will trust the manual on this one and maybe give it the benefit of the doubt and switch it back ON with the hope that maybe the circuit is taking SOME kind of noise out of bad Blu ray transfers...

Re: "DNR" Feature on Panasonic Players...

I always leave DNR systems off. They reduce noise, but at the expense of detail and fluid motion: two of the major advantages of Blu-ray.

But as I said, the DNR when playing DVDs seems to definitely work -- it takes out mosquito and block noise, and it makes it more enjoyable to my eyes -- perhaps I'm just not that sensitive to the detail and fluid motion you mention, but I just like it ON for DVD playback...

The issue comes in with BLU RAY playback...you say the "detail and fluid motion" could be taken out by DNR systems, but when I select ON on the 10A for DNR during BD playback, nothing seems to happen...it doesn't really remove artifacts from "noisy transfers" unless this is just the film grain baked into the signal that I'm seeing. Some seem like dirty "noise" to me though.

Although, I must say: Last night I rewatched Resident Evil: Apacalypse on Blu ray and ran it with the DNR ON...it seemed (unless it was my eyes seeing something they wanted to see) on this go around with this disc, DNR ON seemed to "smooth" something here and there in some of the scenes -- nowhere near as dramatic as when watching DVDs with DNR ON, but I STILL cannot confirm if DNR works with Blu ray or not.

I used the 'Normal' picture mode and every setting at its neutral position, then made any adjustments in the display.

Normal is Panasonic's default mode and from what I understand is the way to send the video over from the player somewhat "untouched" and at "line level"...outside of that, once you're set in Normal mode, I don't believe there are any more picture settings to make "neutral"...would you recommend Normal over the other modes like Soft, Fine, Cinema or User?

You know what else I had a question about? What about the TRANSFER feature on the 10A? Should this be left on AUTO 1 or AUTO 2? I have been leaving it on AUTO 1 but maybe I should leave it on AUTO 2 so the player can convert the frame rates recorded on these discs?

I moved (involuntarily after a burglary, but it turned out to be a solid upgrade) from a BD10 to a Pioneer BDP-LX70A (that's the Elite BDP-95HD in the US), which has a significantly better Blu-ray picture than the BD10.

...now THIS is very interesting news...and something that has been bothering me about this technology for awhile now...I always wondered if all Blu ray players were "created equal"...that is, should every player simply put out a great high definition picture regardless of price or brand? Here you seem to answer that a little -- you saw a significant upgrade in quality on Blu ray playback by moving from the 10A to the Pioneer...can you give me more specific examples of what made the picture better? I keep thinking this player can do better on the Blu ray front too, as I experience a strange "twitchy, noisy dithering" on Blu rays that was confirmed by an online reviewer who found the same weird characteristic on this '10A player; I can't really put it into words, but the picture quality isn't spectacular even on high definition discs...

What would make players different in this regard? Which players are better than others in terms of outstanding Blu-ray performance? I started a thread on this in the High Definition Hardware section of the site, as I am getting ready to replace my 10A soon and want a new BD player with solid BD playback, good DVD upconversion AND bitstreams TrueHD and Master Audio...

Re: "DNR" Feature on Panasonic Players...

My meaning as to not finding anything that said DNR did not do anything in BD.

Yes; I understand. I was just reinstating that Panasonic doesn't make it clear whether or not DNR SPECIFICALLY works for Blu-ray alongside DVD...I am also finding that the DNR doesn't really do anything for Blu-ray playback although last night, as I said to the previous poster, I rewatched Resident Evil: Apocalypse on BD and ran the DNR ON...it could have been my imagination, but I could swear the image somehow got "smoother" on this rather lousy transfer...

Have you seen some BD disks that have 'noise'.?

Many of them are riddled with what I see as a "dirty grain" or "noise;" but perhaps I'm not seeing and identifying the right thing -- Independence Day is one that's littered with what I see as a staticky "noise" but perhaps that's just in the transfer...

The problem still remains, though: If some say "there's no reason DNR couldn't work for 1080p sources" and Panasonic "seems to be, according to their manual, offering DNR for Blu ray sources as well..." then SHOULDN'T this noise reduction circuit be filtering SOME kind of "junk" even from Blu ray material? Is Samsung's original conotation then correct, that DNR definitely does not work with HD DVD or Blu ray signals?

Re: "DNR" Feature on Panasonic Players...

Yes, I suspected I could be confusing film grain with noise -- but I think in some cases, I can identify some kind of difference perhaps...for example, last night I was watching Michael Clayton (Warner, Blu-ray) and no matter how I adjust my display, no matter how many times I flip DNR on or off on the player, I cannot get this disc to look good -- there are moments when there's a "flickering staticky noise" as I like to call it and then suddenly the next scene will get clean and smooth again. But when flipping DNR on for a few scenes, it looked like it MAY have defeated some of the nasty "background grit" that seems to "flicker" on this disc, but I wasn't positive if I was actually seeing that. I couldn't tell if DNR is actually HELPING anything on Blu-ray playback.

The Independence Day Blu-ray has been infamous already for having a bad transfer to BD; most reviews are not positive and talk about its "excessive grain" that collapses into a "noisy transfer presentation" with lack of detail and an almost DVD-like flatness to the image. I found the same on my copy; no sense of DNR seems to help when I engage it.

Re: "DNR" Feature on Panasonic Players...

I'll provide some quotes...

To my eyes, "Independence Day" is visually like the film itself: very good, but not great. The visual quality varies with the lighting. If it's too bright or too dark the level of detail suffers and grain seeps in.

and this one considers the Master Audio too:

Fuzzy, soft, and overly grainy are the norm for this HD run of the film. It looks older than it is, and details are sparse. The resolution has made some things more distinct (like small flaws in the special effects), while the overall tone is too dull. Colors are strong, and explosions have plenty of bright reds to make them look spectacular. Black levels are likewise solid and impressive. Grain is overbearing in many shots though.

Aside from the mother ship going down and the initial reveal of the massive alien brigade at the start, the low end of this DTS-HD master is a disappointment. The bass that backs the explosions is meager, and at times hardly noticeable (the canyon chase especially).

...there are more, but this pretty much summarizes how I felt about the transfer, too.

Re: "DNR" Feature on Panasonic Players...

I'm not going to get a new display now, Craig, after pretty much "just" getting this SXRD which cost us a good amount of moolah...but thank you. Perhaps our next living space will allow for better distance.

Re: "DNR" Feature on Panasonic Players...

I'll provide some quotes...

To my eyes, "Independence Day" is visually like the film itself: very good, but not great. The visual quality varies with the lighting. If it's too bright or too dark the level of detail suffers and grain seeps in.

Is not that the point? That the transfer is like the file itself, should be the point. Too bright or too dark are all subjective—and in any case this is what the filmmakers intended.

I don't see it that way at all -- he's saying LIKE THE FILM, the transfer "is not great..." That's how I read it; nothing really positive about that statement at all...

And as far as the grain goes—is this not also the point. Given that the grain was present on the movie, why would one wish to remove it?

There is a horrendously excessive amount of grain in certain sequences of this BD transfer that are absolutely not excusable -- and they weren't present on my "Limited Edition" cut on DVD...some of these sequences collapse into an almost static-like "noise"; there's one in particular that's very disheartening and distracting -- a sequence with the Adam Baldwin character in the underground shelter towards the end.


Quote:
and this one considers the Master Audio too:

Fuzzy, soft, and overly grainy are the norm for this HD run of the film. It looks older than it is, and details are sparse. The resolution has made some things more distinct (like small flaws in the special effects), while the overall tone is too dull. Colors are strong, and explosions have plenty of bright reds to make them look spectacular. Black levels are likewise solid and impressive. Grain is overbearing in many shots though.

…

...there are more, but this pretty much summarizes how I felt about the transfer, too.

It pretty much looks as though both of these reviewers have the same opinion as Robert Harris and The Digital Bits: the transfer is faithful to the film.

Now these two reviewers may not like the choices that the filmmakers made, but that in no way invalidates the transfer. Criticize the movie, not the transfer.

I personally e mailed the above reviewer regarding this statement I provided here, and that's not what he meant by "this is the norm for this film..." as you think he meant -- he means fuzzy, soft and grainy is what he saw as FLAWS of the transfer and the overall "tone was too dull"...he also speaks about detail being lost; he actually meant that these issues were the "normal run of what he saw during the running time" viewing the disc -- not that it should be considered "normal" because the source may have been this way.

Re: "DNR" Feature on Panasonic Players...

Hey Dave!

Thanks for your input here...let me answer these individually:

Have you had your display ISF'd or professionally calibrated?

No, I relied on a calibration DVD but I'm not so sure the picture settings are the problem -- I recheck the settings I get with this disc on the THX Optimizer as well, and they all check out...here's what they come to time after time with calibration from a setup DVD (I also ran the HD Basics Blu ray disc and the values weren't much -- if any -- different):

Picture Mode: Standard (Model: KDS-50A2020; "Standard" just seemed a "good comprimise" between the rather daunting controls in Sony's "Custom" mode and the advised-against ""Vivid")

Advanced Iris: Auto 1 (liked the "punch" of this mode better than Auto 2)

Picture/Contrast: 80 (this value was decided on by my calibration disc's vocal prompt system which stated "...if you don't see the white contrast box in the center of your screen changing shape, form or distorting, reduce contrast to 80 percent of maximum and stop..." and so I set contrast on my set to "80" out of Sony's deualt and max of "100")

Brightness: 53 (this was confirmed on every pluge pattern test I ran on the screen -- MAYBE 52 on some test patterns, but 53 seemed like the ideal point for shadow detail and not too much black crush)

Color: 50 (Sony's default of 50 seemed fine on every test -- fleshtones are not burned with 50 on my set)

Tint/Hue: 0 (again, Sony's default of middle, or "0", seemed just fine as Magenta and Cyan were spot-on during the THX Optimizer confirmation for tint)

Color Temp: Neutral (better than the alternative, "Cool")

Sharpness: 50 (now THIS has been a bitch of a control to set -- I will explain this below to you)

Noise Reduction: Low

I don't think the picture controls with these settings are what's giving me my "issues" with the high def not looking like high def and the standard DVDs looking horrible when upconverted...

Many uncalibrated displays often tend to be too bright with sharpness too high; this over-accentuates grain, noise, etc.

Okay -- with regard to Sharpness...whew where do I start?! No matter which sharpness test pattern I run on this display, the control doesn't seem to make a difference when I go up or down with the sharpness control -- it doesn't seem to alter the test patterns one way or the other. Now, I've been told there could be MANY reasons for this, one being that on some sets, when using HDMI, sharpness isn't affected...another being that because I'm in the Standard picture mode, there's an "artificial" sharpness and edge enhancement that cannot be turned off -- not sure if this is true or not. At any rate, sharpness doesn't seem to be changing, so I just leave it at Sony's default of 50...

Now...when I ran the HD Essentials Blu ray disc, THAT sharpness circle pattern SEEMED to perhaps change a bit as I reduced sharpness -- unless my eyes were tricking me (because if you stare at these patterns too long for hours, as I do, you end up seeing things that aren't there) it seemed like just perhaps one of the circle patterns was getting a "smoother, reduced" ringing and noise result as I dropped the sharpness to around 15 or so -- so MAYBE the control was actually working. When I run the standard DVD sharpness pattern tests though, I never see the patterns changing as I move sharpness up or down.

Home Theater magazine recently did a review of a Sony LCD set and the writer claimed "Show restraint with the sharpness control...most settings between 10 and 40 were fine for most 1080i/p sources, but all other resolutions looked better below 20...if you don't like to fiddle, just leave it at 15..." which got me thinking: is this a good rule of thumb for ALL Sony displays and their sharpness settings?

Looking forward to hearing your thoughts on this whole picture mode/sharpness/possible no change debacle...

However, film grain is to be expected as it's part of the original film and source material. So, some grain is expected to be seen on ID4, for example. I have a well calibrated 60" Sony SXRD A3000 and thought ID4 looked fine.

Yes, I understand film grain will be present on many software sources -- depending on film stock, transfer, etc; some discs are just excessively noisy and grainy to my eyes, ID4 being one of them. It's an opinion shared by many reviewers too.

Re: "DNR" Feature on Panasonic Players...

Thanks Jake...

Do you leave your Sony's Noise Reduction off? You don't think at Low it should "smooth out" some repeatable noise in a signal?