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Receiver Recommendations - Page 2

post #31 of 58
7/9/08 at 5:49pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Quote:
I see so the 1018 would be considered their elite line?
No, the 1018 is from the standard line but historically the 10xx has been very simular to the bottom model of the Elite line.
Quote:
I apologize, but I need to disagree with this statement here by Gene...outside of their "Elite" line, the "Pioneer build quality" is not nearly in the same class as Onkyo...
Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, Marantz, they're all quality receivers but I wouldn't say that any are in a different class (well, maybe Marantz is ), but I rarely hear of any problems with Pioneer, standard or Elite. ...
Quote:
their Elite stuff doesn't come cheap...
The Elite line is competitively priced to comparable models from Denon (2808-3808), Yamaha (1800-3800), Onkyo, (805-875-905), Marantz (7002-8002) etc. Pioneer just gave their more expensive models a more expensive sounding name.
Quote:
might just go with the 606 seeing how this will just be for my bedroom,
Sounds like a good plan to me. Good luck and let us know how you like those SVS speakers and sub, after you have properly calibrated your system .
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post #32 of 58
7/9/08 at 5:54pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Gene, as I am a novice, does the 606 come with the auto calibration like the 1018 does? I do not know anytthing about calibrating. Thank you also paveno for all the advice!!
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post #33 of 58
7/9/08 at 6:32pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Quote:
Gene, as I am a novice, does the 606 come with the auto calibration like the 1018 does?
Yes it does. These auto calibration systems are usually pretty accurate but you have to follow the procedure to the letter. The automatic equilizer part of it doesn't always produce an acceptable improvement but you can turn the eq off if it doesn't appeal to you.
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post #34 of 58
7/9/08 at 6:42pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

My heart wanted the Pioneer 1018 but my budget said Onkyo 606. I clicked on the link through HTF and got it on Amazon for a sweet $394 - really looking forward to hooking it up (my current receiver just died on me last night!!!)

Good luck with your picks!
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post #35 of 58
7/9/08 at 6:55pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Receiver Recommendations

How hard is it to calibrate the receiver?
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post #36 of 58
7/9/08 at 7:48pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

It's not that hard at all if you use the automatic calibration feature. Shouldn't take more than 5 minutes. But it's very important in order to get your system to sound it's best. Just follow all the directions in the manual. It's very important that the room is quiet during the process. Some of us also use an spl meter and a setup disc from Avia or Video Essentials to double check the results but the auto setup should work fine. But read the manual! (most of us say we do, but we really don't).
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post #37 of 58
7/9/08 at 7:52pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by gene c
No, the 1018 is from the standard line but historically the 10xx has been very simular to the bottom model of the Elite line. Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, Marantz, they're all quality receivers but I wouldn't say that any are in a different class (well, maybe Marantz is ), but I rarely hear of any problems with Pioneer, standard or Elite. ...The Elite line is competitively priced to comparable models from Denon (2808-3808), Yamaha (1800-3800), Onkyo, (805-875-905), Marantz (7002-8002) etc. Pioneer just gave their more expensive models a more expensive sounding name. Sounds like a good plan to me. Good luck and let us know how you like those SVS speakers and sub, after you have properly calibrated your system .

Yes, Marantz is definitely in a little bit of a different class; that's approaching the "affordable" end of higher end -- I own a CD changer and CD recorder by Marantz and the stuff is solid as a rock...but definitely not cheap...

My point to the OP was that Denon and Onkyo, from my experience and conversations with folks in the field, are pretty much doing the "best" receivers in that class -- whatever you want to call it...affordable, mid priced, etc. I really don't think Pioneer's non-Elite product line approaches any of these other mentioned brands. And I believe you are incorrect about Pioneer giving their affordable receivers a "better name" by slapping Elite on them; there IS better circuitry inside that gear than just a name would suggest.
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post #38 of 58
7/9/08 at 7:55pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by gl4662
How hard is it to calibrate the receiver?

Yes, as Gene I believe it was already told you, the 605/606 Onkyos can be calibrated automatically by the Audyssey system -- I personally did not like the results I got after I ran the system many times as did my installer -- we came to the conclusion that manually dialing in the values was better; I have some values that I like and just "work" for my room and tastes, and I tweak around that, etc. Plus, Audyssey doesn't always get things right -- it pegged my Polk bookshelves as FULL RANGE, and that's not really how they're supposed to be run...but you can go in, if you want, and change whatever automatic settings the system made to "fix" any "off" value, like I described with my speakers. I just prefer doing the calibration myself.
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post #39 of 58
7/9/08 at 8:20pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Receiver Recommendations

how hard is it to calibrate it by yourself? is there a special tool that i would need?
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post #40 of 58
7/9/08 at 9:03pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Quote:
I just prefer doing the calibration myself.
I also prefer to do the calibration myself but since Greg is very new to all of this I thought using the automic setup might be a better idea.
Quote:
And I believe you are incorrect about Pioneer giving their affordable receivers a "better name" by slapping Elite on them; there IS better circuitry inside that gear than just a name would suggest.
Of course there is. Just like there is better circuitry inside an Onkyo 905 than in a 505. Or a Denon 4308 and 1508. Pioneers standard line includes the 518, 818, 918 and 1018 ranging in price from $199 to $699. The Elite series includes the 90, 91, 92 and 94 from $699 to 1699. The Elite series is obviously an extention of their standard line. Pioneer differentiates their upper end models from their lower end with a name and model change. Denon and Yamaha take a somewhat different approach by selling basically the same receivers in higher end retailers with different model numbers. The Denon 988 and 2808 are pretty much the exact same receiver. Just sold in different places. Onkyo has Integra as their upper end brand but their models are very simular to the 805, 875 and 905. Just marketed to a different clientel. As for Pioneers build quality, I don't think there's a big difference between the standard and Elite models. They're both excellent. And as good, and in my opinion, even a little better than most other brands. But we're arguing over nickels and dimes here. All the receivers mentioned in this thread are of very good quality and value.
Quote:
is there a special tool that i would need?
Yes. The spl (sound pressure level) meter and setup disc that I previously mentioned.
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post #41 of 58
7/9/08 at 10:57pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Receiver Recommendations

So, dont mean to be naggy, but this set up SVS speakers, SVS sub, and Onyko 606 will sound A LOT better than the bose acoustimass 16 right? haha Thanks!
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post #42 of 58
7/10/08 at 3:10pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

I also prefer to do the calibration myself but since Greg is very new to all of this I thought using the automic setup might be a better idea.

I wasn't suggesting that he should do the calibration himself -- was just explaining all the different viewpoints and that I personally care to final tweak by ear.

Of course there is. Just like there is better circuitry inside an Onkyo 905 than in a 505. Or a Denon 4308 and 1508. Pioneers standard line includes the 518, 818, 918 and 1018 ranging in price from $199 to $699. The Elite series includes the 90, 91, 92 and 94 from $699 to 1699. The Elite series is obviously an extention of their standard line. Pioneer differentiates their upper end models from their lower end with a name and model change. Denon and Yamaha take a somewhat different approach by selling basically the same receivers in higher end retailers with different model numbers. The Denon 988 and 2808 are pretty much the exact same receiver. Just sold in different places. Onkyo has Integra as their upper end brand but their models are very simular to the 805, 875 and 905. Just marketed to a different clientel. As for Pioneers build quality, I don't think there's a big difference between the standard and Elite models. They're both excellent. And as good, and in my opinion, even a little better than most other brands. But we're arguing over nickels and dimes here. All the receivers mentioned in this thread are of very good quality and value.

But that's the whole thing here, isn't it? You made it seem like "Elite" was a moniker "slapped on" a regular Pioneer receiver, and it really isn't -- the same thing is true with your example of Onkyo and Integra, or even TASCAM and TEAC...many people would like to compare these situations to Honda/Acura, Toyota/Lexus, etc. but in some way's they're different -- Elite is really more than a "rebadged" basic Pioneer. That company's "basic" stuff is ridiculously basic and isn't really "undressed" Elite componentry...that's all I wanted the OP to realize.
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post #43 of 58
7/10/08 at 4:47pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Would you recommend I go up to the 805 or would the 606 be sufficient for my setup? thanks Gene![/quote]
Let me tell you a little secret about HT, nothing is ever sufficient enough once the original high wares off. It's all just a temporary fix. Once you're hooked you're in it for the long run.
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post #44 of 58
7/10/08 at 5:10pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by pink
Would you recommend I go up to the 805 or would the 606 be sufficient for my setup? thanks Gene!
Let me tell you a little secret about HT, nothing is ever sufficient enough once the original high wares off. It's all just a temporary fix. Once you're hooked you're in it for the long run.[/quote]

My G-D, is that the truth!
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post #45 of 58
7/10/08 at 5:49pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Well I went for the onyko 606, the price was just unbeatable. I think it was a good choice for my first Receiver!
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post #46 of 58
7/10/08 at 6:51pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Quote:
You made it seem like "Elite" was a moniker "slapped on" a regular Pioneer receiver, and it really isn't
Well, it wasn't my intention to imply that the Elite and standard series were different in name only (but remember, a few years ago the "Elite" 52tx and 1014 were almost identical on the inside so it has happened), just that the Elite series takes over where the standard series leaves off. But I don't feel the "Elite" name carries the same cache that it used to (except maybe the SC-09tx. That thing is a beast!). And if the standard seems ridiculously basic it's because the standard series offers fewer features and is marketed thru big box stores to the average consumer whereas the Elite is sold thru specialty stores to a more knowledgable consumer. But I still feel the 1018 is an upgrade over the 606 (closer to the 705). BTW, I currently own an Elite 59txi (from a time when an "Elite" really was ) and a standard series 1014 and have had an Onkyo HT-500 and a 702. They are all fine products with excellent build quality, but I'd take the Pioneers over the Onkyo's. But just by a little bit. But we all have our own opinions about this stuff.
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post #47 of 58
7/10/08 at 6:58pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Quote:
Would you recommend I go up to the 805 or would the 606 be sufficient for my setup?
Quote:
Let me tell you a little secret about HT, nothing is ever sufficient enough once the original high wares off. It's all just a temporary fix. Once you're hooked you're in it for the long run.
Quote:
My G-D, is that the truth!
I couldn't agree with Pink or Santino any more on this one. Once you're hooked, enough is never enough!
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Well I went for the onyko 606, the price was just unbeatable. I think it was a good choice for my first Receiver!
A very good choice indeed (along with the SVS package). Many around here would kill to have your first setup!
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post #48 of 58
7/10/08 at 7:46pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Well, it wasn't my intention to imply that the Elite and standard series were different in name only

Oh, okay -- it sounded that way, so that was why I wanted the OP to know the difference.

(but remember, a few years ago the "Elite" 52tx and 1014 were almost identical on the inside so it has happened), just that the Elite series takes over where the standard series leaves off.

Yes -- it takes over where that basic gear leaves off, and seemingly, from what I have heard in demo rooms, makes all the difference -- don't get me wrong here; I'm no Pioneer proponent...I don't even care for their stuff compared to Onkyo, but I just thought the difference needed to be stated.

But I don't feel the "Elite" name carries the same cache that it used to (except maybe the SC-09tx. That thing is a beast!).

You're probably right...

And if the standard seems ridiculously basic it's because the standard series offers fewer features and is marketed thru big box stores to the average consumer whereas the Elite is sold thru specialty stores to a more knowledgable consumer.

Nahhhh, Gene...it's more than that...believe me. Have you ever felt the $300 or so Pioneer receiver? Ever lift it? It's ridiculous. It's got like...no guts. Their stuff really is bottom of the barrel until you move up.

But I still feel the 1018 is an upgrade over the 606 (closer to the 705). BTW, I currently own an Elite 59txi (from a time when an "Elite" really was ) and a standard series 1014 and have had an Onkyo HT-500 and a 702. They are all fine products with excellent build quality, but I'd take the Pioneers over the Onkyo's. But just by a little bit. But we all have our own opinions about this stuff.

I suppose so; I think Onkyo components have an excellent build quality and use attention to detail elements like excellent transformers and solid, clean aluminum faceplates. I don't even think of (basic) Pioneer in the same breath as Onkyo or Denon.
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post #49 of 58
7/10/08 at 9:11pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Quote:
Nahhhh, Gene...it's more than that...believe me. Have you ever felt the $300 or so Pioneer receiver? Ever lift it? It's ridiculous. It's got like...no guts. Their stuff really is bottom of the barrel until you move up.
It is true that they do seem a little on the light side, but they are notoriously reliable and trouble free. Only issue I have with Onkyo is they do run pretty hot. But below the $500 range I usually recommend the Onkyo 5xx and 6xx models to others because of their big bang for the buck and their ease of use. And I think the 606 will be a great avr for Greg. But personally, I think the 1018 will also be a great value when the street price comes down. And I am a little biased towards Poneer right now. Even though it's a little old, my 59txi is a wonderful receiver.
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post #50 of 58
7/11/08 at 1:11pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by gene c
It is true that they do seem a little on the light side, but they are notoriously reliable and trouble free. Only issue I have with Onkyo is they do run pretty hot. But below the $500 range I usually recommend the Onkyo 5xx and 6xx models to others because of their big bang for the buck and their ease of use. And I think the 606 will be a great avr for Greg. But personally, I think the 1018 will also be a great value when the street price comes down. And I am a little biased towards Poneer right now. Even though it's a little old, my 59txi is a wonderful receiver.

Yes, the Onkyos run pretty hot. I have always given my receivers plenty of ventilation, and my 605 is now in an open Bell'O audio rack, so I have no problems. But I don't know why everyone recommends Onkyo just for super economy class; have you ever heard their THX certified line or their flagship models in action? They're really wicked. The build quality is insane, too.

As for the cheap Pioneers, well, that's your stance; at the end of the day, I don't like 'em and I think they are really in the super budget class. I am an Onkyo buff and you a Pioneer buff. I hope the OP is happy in his choice -- I just needed him to know that amps like the TX-SR606 are not only for running in "bedroom systems" -- I have my '605 running my main theater, and she's been a beast so far...the 90 watts per channel seem to be feeding my Polk 5.1 array just fine; I wouldn't even think of putting a receiver like this in a bedroom personally.
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post #51 of 58
7/11/08 at 6:01pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by gl4662
Well I went for the onyko 606, the price was just unbeatable. I think it was a good choice for my first Receiver!
I think you made the right choice. My first 5.1 System was an Onkyo 100 wattsX5, cost me $1100.00, but I got many years of enjoyment out of it, as long as it is high current it will work just fine for now...
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post #52 of 58
7/12/08 at 8:34pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Quote:
As for the cheap Pioneers, well, that's your stance; at the end of the day, I don't like 'em and I think they are really in the super budget class. I am an Onkyo buff and you a Pioneer buff.
I stopped by Best Buy this morning and I have to say, you are right on this one. The entry level Pioneers ( 518, 818, 918) are pretty light compared to other models in their price range. But they seem to work fairly well for what they are. But the 1018 is pretty hefty and is much closer to the Elite series than the standard one. I think it could hold it's own against comparable Onkyo and Denon models.
Quote:
I am an Onkyo buff and you a Pioneer buff.
I wouldn't consider myself a buff of any brand (not that's there anything wrong with it!). I think they all have something to offer. There are a couple I'd shy away from but I really don't want to get into that here.
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post #53 of 58
7/12/08 at 9:51pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

I stopped by Best Buy this morning and I have to say, you are right on this one. The entry level Pioneers ( 518, 818, 918) are pretty light compared to other models in their price range.

Indeed...what turns me off even more about the non-Elite stuff is that Best Buy sells them...

But they seem to work fairly well for what they are. But the 1018 is pretty hefty and is much closer to the Elite series than the standard one. I think it could hold it's own against comparable Onkyo and Denon models.

Okay; that's your opinion, and everyone's entitled to it, Gene...I respectfully disagree, but that's why we're all human!

I wouldn't consider myself a buff of any brand

OK; my apologies.
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post #54 of 58
7/13/08 at 1:15am

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Do not be deceived by weight.

Light though the Pioneer models unquestionably are, there are two other things to consider. The first is that the 'old' generation of Pioneers - pre-HDMI - had a lot of superfluous physical materials (oversized heat syncs, ferrous materials in the feet, 3D 'spaceless' chassis) which contributed the greater proportion of what had even the mid-price kit coming it at around 50lbs. A lot of this was shed for the HDMI-compatible kit, to keep costs down and so that the money saved could be reinvested in the digital sections - which are much improved and do not typically add to the weight of a product like this.

The second is that these Pioneers - even the 'baby' VSX-1018 - are still prodigiously powerful, at least the equal of the Denons/Onkyos in this regard (perhaps better). This kind of power would have cost an arm and a leg not five years ago.

People who choose Pioneer should be influenced more about other aspects of their design philosophy than the obvious - their use of Motorola based processing (controversial and unusual), their use of judicious feedback techniques to keep distortions low (a deliberate design philosophy which tailors the products very much to the Japanese market, and one which does have a very direct impact on sound quality).

The Denons are my personal favourite at present - The AVR-3808, for example, is leagues ahead of the AVR-3806 as an engineering achievement. Very good indeed
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post #55 of 58
7/13/08 at 8:21am

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Kemp
I would go second hand with that budget, and I would go with either Denon or Pioneer
$700 is more than enough money for a good NEW receiver (what the heck is happening to HTF).

The Onkyo is a good choice, from past experience with their entry-ish level models.

--
H
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post #56 of 58
7/13/08 at 1:09pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Kemp
Do not be deceived by weight.

Light though the Pioneer models unquestionably are, there are two other things to consider. The first is that the 'old' generation of Pioneers - pre-HDMI - had a lot of superfluous physical materials (oversized heat syncs, ferrous materials in the feet, 3D 'spaceless' chassis) which contributed the greater proportion of what had even the mid-price kit coming it at around 50lbs. A lot of this was shed for the HDMI-compatible kit, to keep costs down and so that the money saved could be reinvested in the digital sections - which are much improved and do not typically add to the weight of a product like this.

The second is that these Pioneers - even the 'baby' VSX-1018 - are still prodigiously powerful, at least the equal of the Denons/Onkyos in this regard (perhaps better). This kind of power would have cost an arm and a leg not five years ago.

People who choose Pioneer should be influenced more about other aspects of their design philosophy than the obvious - their use of Motorola based processing (controversial and unusual), their use of judicious feedback techniques to keep distortions low (a deliberate design philosophy which tailors the products very much to the Japanese market, and one which does have a very direct impact on sound quality).

The Denons are my personal favourite at present - The AVR-3808, for example, is leagues ahead of the AVR-3806 as an engineering achievement. Very good indeed

Denons or Onkyo would be my choice. No Pioneers.
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post #57 of 58
7/16/08 at 4:59am

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holadem
$700 is more than enough money for a good NEW receiver (what the heck is happening to HTF).

What do you mean 'what the heck is happenning'?

My advice is based upon the principle of providing people with the best possible performance for the budget allocated. $700 here at least would buy something like what I think in the USA was called the AVR-5803 in the second hand market. As an engineering triumph no $700 'new' receiver can match equipment like this, HD-compatible or not.

Of course, if other things (warranty, connectivity) matter more than performance then your recommendation becomes perhaps more astute. If you have a valid reason for undermining the credibility of mine then go ahead and share it.
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post #58 of 58
12/2/08 at 3:15pm

Re: Receiver Recommendations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neil Middlemiss
I have been trying to find the PioneerVSX-1018TXH-K but have been unsuccessful - where have you seen that to buy if you don't mind me asking?
Thanks!
Neil

The Best Buy I visited last night had a stack of 1018s for $599. I opted for the 918 though, since it did everything I wanted for $250+ less. Haven't had a chance to hook it up yet to report on it.
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