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Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?  

post #1 of 113
7/7/08 at 6:25pm
Thread Starter 
I'm getting ready to soon replace my Panasonic 'BD10A due to lack of Master Audio support and bitstreaming capabilities for TrueHD...not to mention its horrifying DVD upscaling performance...my next deck must have bitstreaming of all codecs -- the legacy lossy Dolby/DTS variants, of course -- as well as good to excellent DVD upconversion...what would be my choices at the moment in the market?

Let me add some other criteria to the list...I would like to stay away from Samsung, I don't want a PS3 and I'd like to also stay away from the Panasonics for now -- I know they have the BD30 and 50 with bitstreaming capabilities, but I don't trust their UniPher or Sigma chip they're using in these decks for DVD upconversion...

I actually considered the $2000 Denon flagship player, but many have told me it would be too "rich for my system's blood" based on my level of gear in my theater; I also considered the $1000 Denon that's a step down, but in a recent issue of Home Theater Magazine, it got a bad standard DVD upconversion report...

Any suggestions?
post #2 of 113
7/7/08 at 9:37pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Anyone?
post #3 of 113
7/8/08 at 7:06am

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Santino,

The problem is .... the new profile 2.0 decks are coming to the market, but hardly anyone has any experience with any of them yet. Except the PS3, which you don't fancy.

On the other hand, no one would feel comfortable to recommend a profile 1 player, especially not because of the lack of new audio decoding.

I would think the new Panasonic might be good - but because you don't like it, nor a Samsung, well, there is Sony, not just selling playstations, of course.

But as said: who can recommend it from own experience?


Cees
post #4 of 113
7/8/08 at 9:30am

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Wow, talk about painted into a corner!!

No Samsung or Panasonic or PS3, must handle all of the new soundtracks and be a great upscaler.

I least you didn't mention your need for 1.1 or 2.0

I don't think any of the new players from Sharp or Sony have been reviewed let alone bought by anybody here.

I too, wonder which of the 'already out' models fit those requirements.
post #5 of 113
7/8/08 at 9:59am

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Having worked with all available blu-ray players on a daily basis, I have to tell you that if you really don't want a PS3, you should wait to buy anything.

The PS3 is a great machine, though. It decodes all audio codecs, is Profile 2.0, and is immeasurably more responsive than any other on the market. It has great upconversion capabilities that even improve with frequent updates. It is also much less of a hassle to update, as it connects to your home's wireless network or ethernet and notifies you when updates are available. Is there any specific reason it disinterests you?

Otherwise I would sadly have to recommend that you wait until some new players hit the market. Current set top models are frankly just not good enough yet.
post #6 of 113
7/8/08 at 2:35pm

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

I have to agree with Patrick. If you don´t want PS3 (best Blu-ray player in the markets, if you ask me - and then some), then wait for the "profile 2.0"-players (mainly Panasonic BMP-BD50 and Sony BDP-S550). You don´t have to wait that long...
post #7 of 113
7/8/08 at 5:09pm

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panevino
Master Audio support and bitstreaming capabilities for TrueHD... DVD upscaling performance...my next deck must have bitstreaming of all codecs -- the legacy lossy Dolby/DTS variants, of course -- as well as good to excellent DVD upconversion...what would be my choices at the moment in the market?

Let me add some other criteria to the list...I would like to stay away from Samsung, I don't want a PS3............Any suggestions?
Fact is, the PS3 is the best Blu-ray player on the market right now. I recently purchased the Samsung BD1500, which meets all of your criteria perfectly as well. If you want nothing to do with these players, then waiting is your best option. Sometime in the next couple of months the newer players hit the market anyway. Hold out till then is my advice.
post #8 of 113
7/8/08 at 11:04pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Thanks for all the replies, guys.

I simply don't want a gaming unit in my home theater, so that's why I don't want a PS3; I just prefer a standalone deck...nothing against the PS3 or its performance.

Okay, so eliminating the Samsungs (don't like their track record) and the Panasonics (still poor DVD upconversion) there are no other players that send bitstreamed new codecs and provide decent DVD upscaling on the market yet?
post #9 of 113
7/9/08 at 1:39am

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panevino
Thanks for all the replies, guys.

I simply don't want a gaming unit in my home theater, so that's why I don't want a PS3; I just prefer a standalone deck...nothing against the PS3 or its performance.

Okay, so eliminating the Samsungs (don't like their track record) and the Panasonics (still poor DVD upconversion) there are no other players that send bitstreamed new codecs and provide decent DVD upscaling on the market yet?

Out of curiosity, are there specific reasons you would prefer not to have a gaming unit? If you have concerns about family members using it for games, I understand, but there may be workarounds to that. (I have to check on that, I'm at work as I post this.)

It's certainly true that the PS3 does not, and due to hardware limitations, never will bitstream the new codecs, but it's own decoding is fantastic in itself, and as of firmware version 2.41, some bugs involving DTS HD-MA tracks have been ironed out, including support for DTS-ES and DTS 96/24.

I moved to a PS3 from a Panasonic BD-10a myself and found the PS3's upconversion to be superior as well. It's flag recognition is FAR better, for one. Music videos usually were artifact-ridden messes on my BD-10a and come through clear on the PS3.

I realize this doesn't meet your criteria, but until the new Sony standalones are released, there's not much to pick from at the moment.
post #10 of 113
7/9/08 at 9:26am

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wielgosz
..and as of firmware version 2.41, some bugs involving DTS HD-MA tracks have been ironed out, including support for DTS-ES and DTS 96/24 support.

This is true. Full 2.41 list:
PlayStation.com

(Video)

*You can now use the [Frame Noise Reduction] and [Block Noise Reduction] settings for video content that is saved on the hard disk or storage media.

*You can now play upscaled video content that is saved on the hard disk or storage media. When the video content is played, it is upscaled automatically to match the screen size.

*Upscaling of Blu-ray Disc (BDAV) video content is now supported.

*For DTS playback on DVD-Video and Blu-ray Disc media, DTS-ES and DTS 96/24 for DVD-Video and DTS-ES Matrix for Blu-ray Discs are now supported.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wielgosz
I moved to a PS3 from a Panasonic BD-10a myself and found the PS3's upconversion to be superior as well. It's flag recognition is FAR better, for one. Music videos usually were artifact-ridden messes on my BD-10a and come through clear on the PS3.

Upscaling with PS3 is indeed excellent. Some people have said, that this is partly due the sheer power of PS3 (Cell microprocessor etc). Not sure, though.
post #11 of 113
7/9/08 at 9:44am

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

I think it'll be easier to achieve your goals by dividing duties. If upconversion is a top priority, maybe grab an Oppo 830 for that and a Panasonic BD30 to bitstream HD audio. Best 'o both worlds, and still cheaper than the lower Denon you referred to.

Personally, I'd re-think the whole "don't want a game machine" stance. Go with what works.
post #12 of 113
7/9/08 at 12:04pm

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

I agree with those who say wait for profile 2.0 players. (I own a PS3)

If you want a standalone deck, it doesn't make sense to me to not purchase a profile 2.0 player. And since most haven't hit the market, it's not surprising that no one is recommending anything right now. Wait a few months. Ask again in September.
post #13 of 113
7/9/08 at 1:40pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Out of curiosity, are there specific reasons you would prefer not to have a gaming unit? If you have concerns about family members using it for games, I understand, but there may be workarounds to that. (I have to check on that, I'm at work as I post this.)

It's just a personal preference; I would just rather have a standalone deck.

I moved to a PS3 from a Panasonic BD-10a myself and found the PS3's upconversion to be superior as well. It's flag recognition is FAR better, for one. Music videos usually were artifact-ridden messes on my BD-10a and come through clear on the PS3.

Oh, well, you don't have to tell me about the 10A's upscaling abilties -- or lack thereof; I deal with it almost every evening...and "artifact-ridden messes" is certainly a good way to sum it up...

I realize this doesn't meet your criteria, but until the new Sony standalones are released, there's not much to pick from at the moment.

Well, that's what I was curious about as well; what would make the Sonys more special than the other brands on the market? Will they exhibit better upscaling? What about mating them with a Sony display like I have -- would that have any "visual benefit"?
post #14 of 113
7/9/08 at 1:43pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Gilvey
I think it'll be easier to achieve your goals by dividing duties. If upconversion is a top priority, maybe grab an Oppo 830 for that and a Panasonic BD30 to bitstream HD audio. Best 'o both worlds, and still cheaper than the lower Denon you referred to.

Personally, I'd re-think the whole "don't want a game machine" stance. Go with what works.

Thanks for your thoughts, Jack.

I understand that you feel I should rethink the PS3 angle, but I simply don't want one; that's why I specified my criteria early in the thread activity.

I already attempted your suggested angle of separating the upscaling duties -- I had an Oppo 983, their new flagship, delivered and it didn't really impress me terribly over the Panasonic for upscaling...at least not for the 400 bucks I paid for it. So I recently returned it and decided I would put the money towards a new BD player...
post #15 of 113
7/9/08 at 1:44pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlo Medina
I agree with those who say wait for profile 2.0 players. (I own a PS3)

If you want a standalone deck, it doesn't make sense to me to not purchase a profile 2.0 player. And since most haven't hit the market, it's not surprising that no one is recommending anything right now. Wait a few months. Ask again in September.

What's the whole hoopla surrounding "2.0 profile"? Does this just access more interactive features on the discs? If so, I'm not really interested in any of that; my only criteria are for bitstreaming of the TrueHD/Master Audio codecs and good DVD upscaling...

Are there still no current choices?
post #16 of 113
7/9/08 at 2:07pm

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panevino
It's just a personal preference; I would just rather have a standalone deck.

Sounds like you have been well conditioned against the idea of having a gaming unit in your system.

Another vote for the PS3 from me. If you're going to make choices based on nothing other than testimony and your own 'suspicions' then I fail to see why it's worth starting this thread in the first place.

If you want to make an informed decision then TRY the players in your system - also, give the PS3 a try. Get over your brain-washed aversion to having a gaming device in your system and actually give it a go and see what it can do. Try the remote hand set - it is no different to using a stand alone deck, except it is much quicker in use.

It amazes me that even in these times people still make decisions based on assumptions, prejudice and marketing guff!
post #17 of 113
7/9/08 at 2:40pm

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

As another person who really didn't want a "gaming machine" in my HT system, I say "get over it!". I have never used it for a game, and don't see I ever will.

You will regret not having 2.0 features in your BDP when more discs have those features available: its not just a gaming feature. Also, nobody has ever produced the slightest bit of technical evidence that bitstreaming is superior to repackaging the data properly at source and sending it out as LPCM: this is just another red-herring prejudice, largely promoted in certain forums by those who don't have or want a "gaming machine" in their high-end systems. It IS true though that certain PS3s that play SACD will not be quite as good as true DSD, but this is not BD-related.

The PS3 doesn't look really cheap, unlike some other gaming machines and stand-alone players even. Anyway, it "hides" in a rack easily enough and nobody will notice it's a gaming machine...

The downsides to the PS3 IMO: It does get somewhat hot. However, there is supposedly a fan, yet my fan has never come on since I only play BDs and stream audio. I can completely understand if you don't like its slot-load: I much prefer a tray. The biggest downside is it uses a Bluetooth remote. Nothing wrong with BT, would be nice if everything else used it too, but until that day it is a bit of an annoying anomaly for HT system integration. Lastly, you can buy a 40GB PS3 for as low as $200 if you're careful: hard to go wrong with that, and it'll be easy to get rid of whenever you want with little regret.
post #18 of 113
7/9/08 at 2:47pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Wait a minute -- come on, guys; this just isn't cool or fair at this point...please stop attacking me regarding why I don't want a PS3 or about the whole PS3 issue...can we please move past this? Respectfully, can anyone else please respect my criteria and recommend a standalone player that outputs the new lossless codecs via bitstream and has at least decent DVD upscaling?
post #19 of 113
7/9/08 at 2:52pm

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panevino

I realize this doesn't meet your criteria, but until the new Sony standalones are released, there's not much to pick from at the moment.

Well, that's what I was curious about as well; what would make the Sonys more special than the other brands on the market? Will they exhibit better upscaling? What about mating them with a Sony display like I have -- would that have any "visual benefit"?

The problem is that no one has any inkling how the new Sony models will do with upscaling. I wouldn't assume any better performance than other existing Sony standalones (decent but not great).

Also, "attacking"? Nothing of the sort. It's just that at the moment the PS3 seems to be the best all around player for the cost. What you're looking for in a standalone may not exist at the moment.
post #20 of 113
7/9/08 at 2:54pm

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Upcoming Panasonic BMP-BD50 or Sony BDP-S550 are probably your best bets at the moment. Profile 2.0 etc. Just wait a bit (and then we´ll see the full specs) and buy one of those.
post #21 of 113
7/9/08 at 3:10pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

The problem is that no one has any inkling how the new Sony models will do with upscaling. I wouldn't assume any better performance than other existing Sony standalones (decent but not great).

Thank you, John...at this point, I guess I can ask of a BD player is for decent upscaling...what about the $2000 flagship Denon...should that do a bang up job with DVD because of the Reon chip? I would go with a Sony with no problem -- if I knew it supported the codecs via bitstream, and if the upscaling was at least better than my Panasonic!

Also, "attacking"? Nothing of the sort. It's just that at the moment the PS3 seems to be the best all around player for the cost. What you're looking for in a standalone may not exist at the moment.

It seemed like everyone was simply ganging up on me about this PS3 thing and wouldn't let it go -- and the next step was going to lead to a flame war about why I'm a fool for not wanting this system; it just seemed to me it was going in that direction and I wanted to express that.

At any rate, I don't suspect it's necessarily true that there is no player on the market other than the PS3 that will do what I want it to do -- okay, let's take "stellar" DVD upscaling out of the equation for a moment...if I wanted simply "better than decent" or "decent" upscaling with little to no jaggies and other artifacts introduced, plus a machine that will bitstream TrueHD and Master Audio, are there no selections of standalones?
post #22 of 113
7/9/08 at 3:16pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jari K
Upcoming Panasonic BMP-BD50 or Sony BDP-S550 are probably your best bets at the moment. Profile 2.0 etc. Just wait a bit (and then we´ll see the full specs) and buy one of those.

Thanks again Jari...

Well, I'd like to stay away from Panasonic if I could for reasons detailed earlier in the thread; from all reports, the BD50 is going to carry the same Sigma chip that gives the horrible upscaling of their current players and older ones, like my own 10A...

I also considered the $1000 Denon or the $2000 Denon flagship -- but the $1000 model was reviewed by Home Theater and it got a very poor rating for DVD upconversion so that seemed like a waste of money. The $2000 deck is really outside of my budget but I would consider trying to pay that thing off IF the DVD upconversion was really spectacular as its Reon specs suggest and if the Blu ray performance was more "off the hook" compared to my Panny...

Which leads me to another question: Are all BD decks created equal? Should one player outperform another on Blu ray performance? I see "artifacts" on my Blu rays that lead me to believe it may be my player because I read reviews of the 10A in which the reviewer found the same strange "dithering" and "twitchy noise" on Blu ray Discs played on this machine -- on top of that, someone on another site who claimed he reviewed players for a living, told me that all Panasonic Blu ray decks were "simply unacceptable" to his eyes in terms of performance...I think this was kind of crude, but it did get me thinking...

Any thoughts?
post #23 of 113
7/9/08 at 4:08pm

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

I have the ps3 and the panasonic 30. both are fine players.. both have good and bad things. I don;t think you can go wrong with either.. I am happy with the result.

I would give the panasonic 30 or the 50 a try. .or you might be waiting for a while. could also be the tv set..

Jacob
post #24 of 113
7/9/08 at 4:15pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBat
I have the ps3 and the panasonic 30. both are fine players.. both have good and bad things. I don;t think you can go wrong with either.. I am happy with the result.

I would give the panasonic 30 or the 50 a try. .or you might be waiting for a while. could also be the tv set..

Jacob

I already said that I wanted to stay away from Panasonic I think because of their upconverting chips; can you give me a bit more insight as to what you mean by "could be waiting awhile" or "it could also be the TV set"?

I know for a fact upscaled DVDs look horrible on this player; it was also confirmed by others in this thread -- so why would you think the issues would be the TV? And when you say I may be waiting awhile, are there no models available aside from the Panasonics that bitstream the TrueHD and Master Audio streams aside from Samsung as well?
post #25 of 113
7/9/08 at 4:20pm

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panevino
Thanks again Jari...

Well, I'd like to stay away from Panasonic if I could for reasons detailed earlier in the thread; from all reports, the BD50 is going to carry the same Sigma chip that gives the horrible upscaling of their current players and older ones, like my own 10A...

I also considered the $1000 Denon or the $2000 Denon flagship -- but the $1000 model was reviewed by Home Theater and it got a very poor rating for DVD upconversion so that seemed like a waste of money. The $2000 deck is really outside of my budget but I would consider trying to pay that thing off IF the DVD upconversion was really spectacular as its Reon specs suggest and if the Blu ray performance was more "off the hook" compared to my Panny...

Which leads me to another question: Are all BD decks created equal? Should one player outperform another on Blu ray performance? I see "artifacts" on my Blu rays that lead me to believe it may be my player because I read reviews of the 10A in which the reviewer found the same strange "dithering" and "twitchy noise" on Blu ray Discs played on this machine -- on top of that, someone on another site who claimed he reviewed players for a living, told me that all Panasonic Blu ray decks were "simply unacceptable" to his eyes in terms of performance...I think this was kind of crude, but it did get me thinking...

Any thoughts?

I think there can be differences in video quality output between players. I thought that my (here it comes again) PS3 had visible improvement in video output over the BD-10a. It could come down to the decoder chip used in each model. Both units passed through the same HDMI path to the same set (a Sony 50a3000 SXRD). The initial version of the Samsung BDP-1000 was a notorious under performer in video quality.
post #26 of 113
7/9/08 at 4:48pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wielgosz
I think there can be differences in video quality output between players. I thought that my (here it comes again) PS3 had visible improvement in video output over the BD-10a. It could come down to the decoder chip used in each model. Both units passed through the same HDMI path to the same set (a Sony 50a3000 SXRD). The initial version of the Samsung BDP-1000 was a notorious under performer in video quality.

If there are differences between players, would getting, say, the $2000 Denon make a "visible difference" over discs played on, say, the "garden variety" $500/$600 players from Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, etc?

I DO feel even the Blu ray performance can be improved over my 10A...
post #27 of 113
7/9/08 at 4:54pm

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Panevino
If there are differences between players, would getting, say, the $2000 Denon make a "visible difference" over discs played on, say, the "garden variety" $500/$600 players from Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, etc?

I DO feel even the Blu ray performance can be improved over my 10A...

It depends on the display size and quality you're sending it to. The Denon would most likely look better than the BD10a. $2000 better though? There's the rub.

At this point, if you're willing to wait, I would see how the Sony 350 and 550 models turn out.
post #28 of 113
7/9/08 at 5:11pm

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Nobody was "attacking" you, merely pointing out that others came to the same realisation as this thread has: there's nothing out there that does an appreciably better job at playing BD. Now, if you throw DVD upscaling and bitstreaming in there, you've made your choice ~ zero that are *guaranteed* excellent. The promise of newer and better BD players, regardless of price, has still not changed the bottom line much, which is BD playing ability.

You want what we all want. We can't seem to get it, so we make do with something that does the core function quite well. Throwing money at the problem is not guaranteeing a better solution. They all have substantial flaws. This is typical when you try to use one "tool" to do different jobs.

Do not overlook the ability to easily update the firmware of whatever player you get. That is one aspect that you will be guaranteed to need.
post #29 of 113
7/9/08 at 5:12pm

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

I have always been impressed with the PQ on either the ps3 and the panasonic 30. more so then the oppo or regular standard dvd players. specially for the upconversion. you are using HDMI instead of conponets.
I had a tv which I would see some bad images or so.. so I got another tv.. had some problem.. but I did have to calibrate the tv a bit. then it worked better.. however some dvds still have problems and might have image problems.
it seems that you are a bit picky about what you like and all.. which is fine.. you might not be ever happy with it.. but some players are better then others and some are worse.

with that in mind.. you never said what your set up is like tv or home theatre? or size of the tv?
I will say that the panasonic 30 is very impressive with the true HD and DTS MA and stuff.. you would be happy with that. bitstreaming I mean.. the BDlive is a bunch of overrated crap if you ask me.

Jacob
post #30 of 113
7/9/08 at 5:18pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Given the Following Criteria...Can Someone Recommend a BD Player?

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Wielgosz
It depends on the display size and quality you're sending it to. The Denon would most likely look better than the BD10a. $2000 better though? There's the rub.

At this point, if you're willing to wait, I would see how the Sony 350 and 550 models turn out.

Thanks for your thoughts...I will indeed consider the Sonys...

Do you think a replacement for their now discontinued "ES" model will be worth looking at for over a grand?
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