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post #31 of 69
6/20/08 at 10:54am

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Does that clarify my point of view?
Sure. But joining interest groups was one of the very first things suggested in this thread, by Jeff and others. Nightlife was one suggestion of many, but for some reason people like to concentrate on that one.

--
H
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post #32 of 69
6/20/08 at 10:55am

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holadem
Sure. But joining interest groups was one of the very first things suggested in this thread, by Jeff and others. Nightlife was one suggestion of many, but for some reason people like to concentrate on that one.

--
H

Which is why this thread is going to be a never ending treadmill... people only hear what they want to hear and all that....
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post #33 of 69
6/20/08 at 11:07am

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Porter
I suspect that my point (or more accurately my complaint about the advice) was obscured by all my blah blah blah, so I'll try to clarify it.

I'm suggesting to Robert and others like myself that forcing the situation and adapting your introverted personality to socialize with the masses in environments that don't already appeal to you will not be as rewarding as specifically seeking out like minded people where they congregate and socializing with them in a limited way. It's difficult to find a "people completely like me" club to hang out in, but finding a "people who like this one thing that I really like" club is easier than it has ever been. As an example, I meet the largest number of strangers by playing poker. It's a hobby that I really enjoy even though a large portion of the other players are absolute assholes. I'm not expecting to find a soulmate in that activity, just a few suckers. If I can get a good conversation out of the experience as well then it's win-win for me. But you can see how that approach is different than just mixing in an unstructured social situation like a bar or club. And it's vastly different than walking up to ladies at the market and talking about melons.

So my complaint isn't about the advice to "get out there", it's about the "there" that keeps getting proposed. If you alreaddy like to drink or dance or have shouting conversations, then a bar is definitely the proper place to go. If, like me, none of that appeals to you then it seems like a setup for disappointment - and therefore unwelcome advice. My point is that if you generally want more rewarding social interaction in your life then it's better to get it in small, selective doses - some poker time with poker players, some sci-fi nerd time on a targetted internet forum, etc. You will continue to be "invisible" in public, but you won't feel as isolated if you have some place to go for a meeting of the minds. It's easier to build limited relationships with people who have already self-identified a specific common interest than it is to find those people in an open public location by kissing all the frogs.

Does that clarify my point of view?

Brad

The thing about your point of view is:

a) Most of you haven't tried the things you say you don't like, i.e. cooking classes, dance lessons, singles bars, charity work.

b) Most of you are only putting these things down because you are scared shit about interacting with people. Which is exactly the point. Self-sabotage is rampant in these types of things.

See, you all complain about having difficulty meeting someone and being "touched", but every time someone suggest that you get out there and try to touch someone, you basically say "But I don't like touching people". You won't do the work, but you want the rewards. Kind of greedy on your part, huh?

Look, if there is anything I've learned, this "I'm a shy, nice guy, why oh why doesn't anybody see it?" attitude is pure unaldulterated crap. It's selfish and egotistical to think you are so special that you should be the first person in history to ever be loved without risking your feelings and ego. The fact that people dress this narcissistic horse-hooey up to look like introverted shyness is also crap. How do I know? Because I did the same thing for years. I finally realized that I'm not special, and like anything else in life, I have to work for what I want (if I want it).
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post #34 of 69
6/20/08 at 11:09am

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Holadem
Sure. But joining interest groups was one of the very first things suggested in this thread, by Jeff and others. Nightlife was one suggestion of many, but for some reason people like to concentrate on that one.

--
H

It's the easiest one to shoot down, so if they concentrate on that, they don't have to answer for the others.
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post #35 of 69
6/20/08 at 12:31pm

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

I think you guys are fighting against a strawman with most of your points - at least with respect to anything that I've written. This wallowing in self-pity, friendless loser character that you're addressing isn't me, nor do I suspect that it is anyone else here. I've got plenty of friends, and whether I'd consider myself a "nice guy" or not is irrelevant. I haven't acquired the friendships that I have through random interactions with the public. Perhaps the best thing for this stereotypical friendless loser that you guys are helping to do is to just reach out to everyone he meets with no filter, but my ongoing point is that people who are naturally introverted are better served seeking specific relationships with people who share their specific interests. That is different advice than telling them to go be amongst as many people as they can. And it certainly isn't telling them to indulge their shyness.

I'll relate it back to the original post. Robert said "I hate fake people." I'd guess that the most likely companion to that sentiment is hating being a fake person. An introvert who pretends to be an extrovert will feel "fake", and any relationships that develop under those circumstances will feel "fake" to a certain extent as well.

For Robert or me or whomever else might self-apply the label of introvert, our best bet (IMO) is to find activities that entertain us regardless of whether they will lead to friendship or not. For me personally, that isn't going to be a bar, dance club, or church since I would have to pretend to want to be there in there first place. So when I see that advice I step in to give my opinion that maybe random acquaintances aren't really the best solution for an introverted person. And yes, I have been there, done that - why presume that I haven't to reinforce your strawman?

Brad
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post #36 of 69
6/20/08 at 12:59pm

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Porter
I think you guys are fighting against a strawman with most of your points - at least with respect to anything that I've written. This wallowing in self-pity, friendless loser character that you're addressing isn't me, nor do I suspect that it is anyone else here. I've got plenty of friends, and whether I'd consider myself a "nice guy" or not is irrelevant. I haven't acquired the friendships that I have through random interactions with the public. Perhaps the best thing for this stereotypical friendless loser that you guys are helping to do is to just reach out to everyone he meets with no filter, but my ongoing point is that people who are naturally introverted are better served seeking specific relationships with people who share their specific interests. That is different advice than telling them to go be amongst as many people as they can. And it certainly isn't telling them to indulge their shyness.

I'll relate it back to the original post. Robert said "I hate fake people." I'd guess that the most likely companion to that sentiment is hating being a fake person. An introvert who pretends to be an extrovert will feel "fake", and any relationships that develop under those circumstances will feel "fake" to a certain extent as well.

For Robert or me or whomever else might self-apply the label of introvert, our best bet (IMO) is to find activities that entertain us regardless of whether they will lead to friendship or not. For me personally, that isn't going to be a bar, dance club, or church since I would have to pretend to want to be there in there first place. So when I see that advice I step in to give my opinion that maybe random acquaintances aren't really the best solution for an introverted person. And yes, I have been there, done that - why presume that I haven't to reinforce your strawman?

Brad

Sorry if you got upset, but I call it the way I see it. If you are happy being an introvert, then fine. But the OP seemd to be miserable being an introvert and didn't know how to break out of it. I gave him the advice that worked for me and countless others. The fact that it actually takes effort is why it works. The OP didn't ask for the "safe" way, he asked for any way. I'm not about to suggest to someone who wants to learn how to swim to stay away from the water because he could drown. Besides, where did I suggesst he seek out clubs and charities that he'd hate doing?

By the way, ever taken a cooking class? That was my first suggestion, and for you to keep answering been there done that in order to knock down a "strawman" that I haven't put up is a little ironic.
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post #37 of 69
6/20/08 at 1:04pm

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

I'm not going to tell you what to do, I'm just telling you what I've done.

I am a painfully shy person. But, when I decided to get into my field (I'm a chef) I realized that I needed to do something about the shyness.

What I did was basically what Bob said. Maintain eye contact, always be interested in what the other person is saying, and, remember their names.

Take a lesson from Bill Clinton where he always grabs the person by the arm, looks them in the eyes and smiles. You might think that's phony but the other person on the end of that is not thinking that.

Just don't be too smarmy.
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post #38 of 69
6/20/08 at 8:40pm

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Sorry if you got upset, but I call it the way I see it. If you are happy being an introvert, then fine. But the OP seemed to be miserable being an introvert and didn't know how to break out of it.

I rarely get upset, so everyone is always welcome to be as blunt as they desire where I am concerned. I just wanted to get folks to stop giving advice to the mopey homebody that doesn't necessarily exist in the thread. I can't speak for Robert, and since this is his thread I'm actually rather curious about whether he's coming back for a visit because we're all assuming certain things about his life without any feedback.

Quote:
The OP didn't ask for the "safe" way, he asked for any way.

Actually he only asked if others also felt "invisible" and why he felt treated as "insignificant" in social interactions. You inferred that he wanted your solutions rather than just your empathy.

Quote:
Besides, where did I suggest he seek out clubs and charities that he'd hate doing?

I'll make the distinction again. You gave a specific list of activities with the common element being that you were encouraging him (and others) to seek opportunities in your list of public activities where you feel he is likely to meet more people - completely assuming that he was not already engaged in any of those activities and getting the results that prompted the thread. I countered, while trying to explain my view of the introvert's mindset, that he should just seek out the activities and communities that appeal to him and draw from whatever social interaction there that exists. For Robert, his list of interesting activities may very well be identical to things that you listed. For me, they aren't. My point is that there isn't a prescribed list of ways and places to meet new people that will work for everyone. Just be yourself and seek out the things that you want to do.

I don't think this distinction is really worth much of an argument, but it seems like that's the After Hours thing to do these days.

Quote:
By the way, ever taken a cooking class? That was my first suggestion, and for you to keep answering been there done that in order to knock down a "strawman" that I haven't put up is a little ironic.

I haven't specifically taken a cooking class, but I'm actually pretty darn good at feeding myself and occasionally my friends since I've been doing it for half my life. I've been wanting to take a welding class but I haven't found anything local in the past. I bet all the lonely hawt chicks flock to the industrial arts classes.

Brad
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post #39 of 69
6/20/08 at 10:47pm

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_CusBlues
Did somebody say something?

Damn, i wanted to be the first to say that. But i didnt see the thread til today!

I only WANT to be noticed by a few. Cause, i feel better going under the radar of the dim wits.

So to sum up, enjoy what you have, or make changes. Life, as always, is to short.
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post #40 of 69
6/21/08 at 9:36am

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

I like Brad's posts in this thread.

Anyway, there's a site called MeetUp. It has all these categories of interests, and you get to talk to and hang out with people near your area who share in the same interests as you and who are interested in meeting new people.

~T
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post #41 of 69
6/21/08 at 7:15pm

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

> The fact that people dress this narcissistic horse-hooey up to look like introverted shyness is also crap.

Now I'm confused. A narcissist would have high self-esteem by definition and would likely be an extrovert if anything.

Shy people often have low self-esteem; that's a big reason why they have trouble talking to other people... they assume they will be rejected (and I'm not just talking about dating situations).

So it's hard to picture a narcissist being shy. My old roommate was always saying how great he is and was the opposite of shy.
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post #42 of 69
6/21/08 at 7:21pm

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Porter

There are many ways in which we limit our own sociability ("we" referencing the introverted wallflowers - and I am a grand achiever at introversion), but the primary motive usually seems to be protecting the ego. As painful as it can be to be ignored, it's much better than being noticed and ridiculed.
Brad

Amen brother.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Porter
As an example, I meet the largest number of strangers by playing poker. It's a hobby that I really enjoy even though a large portion of the other players are absolute assholes.

Brad

Hey, wait a second......Hoping I'm not part of that majority

Good thread. Being a proud card carrying member of the Introvert club myself, I can truly say things got a lot less complicated for me when I finally realized that I was an introvert, and that there was nothing wrong with that. Like yourself and others will follow suit.
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post #43 of 69
6/21/08 at 9:13pm

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Hey, wait a second......Hoping I'm not part of that majority

If you ever actually come back and play poker again I'll let you know.

Brad
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post #44 of 69
6/22/08 at 6:57am

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood
> The fact that people dress this narcissistic horse-hooey up to look like introverted shyness is also crap.

Now I'm confused. A narcissist would have high self-esteem by definition and would likely be an extrovert if anything.

Shy people often have low self-esteem; that's a big reason why they have trouble talking to other people... they assume they will be rejected (and I'm not just talking about dating situations).

So it's hard to picture a narcissist being shy. My old roommate was always saying how great he is and was the opposite of shy.

It's not the "shy" part, it's the feeling that they are so special that they can sit back and everyone should notice them without having to put forth any effort. Sure they are shy, but they are also so judgmental about what the "fake" people are doing (i.e. everybody who has fun doing stuff the "shy" person won't do), they border on narcissistic. What do you call someone who thinks they should automatically be "valued and desired" by everyone and yet they are so hypercritical about what the rest of the population is doing, they label every activity outside of D&D and Star Trek conventions as "fake"?
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post #45 of 69
6/22/08 at 11:18am

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Philip_T
Like yourself and others will follow suit.

Words to live by.
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post #46 of 69
6/22/08 at 4:38pm

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

> t's not the "shy" part, it's the feeling that they are so special

That's just my point- a lot of shy people DON'T feel special. They feel like something is wrong with them, that others will automatically not like them, etc. I'm not saying this is true of any specific people here, just that it is common. This is not just my theory, but found in any book on shyness you care to read.

Wayne Dyer mentions this in Your Erroneous Zones (great book). There is a loop people get into where they want to approach others, assume they will be rejected, get scared away, then it becomes self-fulfilling.

It probably sounds crazy but it's really true.

> . What do you call someone who thinks they should automatically be "valued and desired" by everyone

I think it's basic human instinct to want to be valued and desired, not necessarily by everyone, but at least by some. Certainly society has been teaching this a lot the past 20 years or so, the whole thing about schools teaching self esteem.

I agree with your basic advice, about needing to get out and do things if you want life to change. I'm just bringing up the inferiority complex that is common.
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post #47 of 69
6/22/08 at 4:46pm

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Anyway, there's a site called MeetUp. It has all these categories of interests, and you get to talk to and hang out with people near your area who share in the same interests as you and who are interested in meeting new people.

I've been scanning the available groups in my area and this really seems like a great resource. They even have message boards within the groups that allow you to view the way the people in the group interact before you ever have to commit to joining. Thanks for posting that.

Quote:
What do you call someone who thinks they should automatically be "valued and desired" by everyone and yet they are so hypercritical about what the rest of the population is doing, they label every activity outside of D&D and Star Trek conventions as "fake"?

Did I actually give that impression? I think the key disagreement I have with your interpretation is the use of the phrase "automatically desired by everyone". I don't think that introverts expect to be accepted by anyone automatically. Personally, I've always suspected that 95% of the world's population would probably find at least one reason to dislike me without any effort at all. (And that's OK.) I think that we just want to find the people that will accept us at face value or a group where we fit in comfortably. I just want to maximize the time spent with that other 5%.

Any criticisms that we apply to other people are largely used as a defense mechanism, but I don't interpret that as narcissism. It seems to me that any other reaction would just feed into a cycle of self-loathing, which is not helpful at all.

Brad
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post #48 of 69
6/22/08 at 5:13pm

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Porter
I've been scanning the available groups in my area and this really seems like a great resource. They even have message boards within the groups that allow you to view the way the people in the group interact before you ever have to commit to joining. Thanks for posting that.



Did I actually give that impression? I think the key disagreement I have with your interpretation is the use of the phrase "automatically desired by everyone". I don't think that introverts expect to be accepted by anyone automatically. Personally, I've always suspected that 95% of the world's population would probably find at least one reason to dislike me without any effort at all. (And that's OK.) I think that we just want to find the people that will accept us at face value or a group where we fit in comfortably. I just want to maximize the time spent with that other 5%.

Any criticisms that we apply to other people are largely used as a defense mechanism, but I don't interpret that as narcissism. It seems to me that any other reaction would just feed into a cycle of self-loathing, which is not helpful at all.

Brad

But don't you see these "defense mechanisms" frequently come across as arrogant and dismissive (at least to me they do)? The incessant putting down of the ways others try to interact (or just have a little fun) may be a defense, but it puts off others.

It's also offputting to hear how special and precious the feelings of an introvert are, as if those of us who actually try to interact don't have fears of rejection or making idiots of ourselves . . . if we even have feelings at all. It is the arrogance of the nerd and the outcast (a role I know as well as anyone), and while it may be comforting, it doesn't do you or you prospective companions any good.

Sorry, but I can't help thinking that anyone who has such a negative attitude towards throwing caution to the wind and sampling anything and everything in the quest for fun and interaction must be a hell of a downer and yes, eventually, they are probably ignored or seen as invisible. Sorry if I tried to break that cycle, but I guess it's stronger in some than it was in me.
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post #49 of 69
6/22/08 at 6:51pm

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
...arrogant and dismissive...
...special and precious...

IMO, you're projecting these attitudes onto a stereotype more than perceiving them from anyone participating in this thread. While I'll certainly dismiss any suggestions that don't appeal to me personally, let me be clear that I'm not judging anyone that does enjoy them. (Heck, my purchasing of Diageo, Inc. stock is counting on it. ) If there's arrogance coming across in the way that I write then it is just poor communication skills on my part. That having been said, adopting an attitude of self-respect for one's choices is normal for everyone. It's certainly better than saying "I suck. Those people are so much better than me. I wish I was having that kind of fun."

And I'm not claiming that there's anything "special and precious" about being reclusive, just that it is a real and prevalent personality trait. No one has claimed that one personality type is superior to another, just that introversion is real and it does shape many people's worldview. How does talking about this diminish your approach to life? It's not a zero sum game. One person's approach doesn't subtract from another's.

Brad
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post #50 of 69
6/22/08 at 8:11pm

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert_Z
.... when I was younger. I resented the fact that women never noticed me. Now that I'm older and have started losing "interest," I'm no longer bitter but still puzzled.

Hello from behind this introverted wall ...

I've not read this thread word for word, even my vast ammount of free time has its standards.
But, I did noticed a few things:

Robert Z made one post and has not responded to the 4 dozen or so replies.

He has presented himself as Mr. Loner.

Robert Z referred to "Our platform bed.." two years ago.
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post #51 of 69
6/22/08 at 9:14pm

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Robert Z made one post and has not responded to the 4 dozen or so replies.

He has presented himself as Mr. Loner.

Robert Z referred to "Our platform bed.." two years ago.

He hasn't been active on the forum since about half an hour after he made the post - but that's not necessarily abnormal for someone with a new house. And his current girlfriend situation is summed up in the thread about buying that new house.

Brad
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post #52 of 69
6/23/08 at 5:49am

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Porter
Quote:
...arrogant and dismissive...
...special and precious...

IMO, you're projecting these attitudes onto a stereotype more than perceiving them from anyone participating in this thread. While I'll certainly dismiss any suggestions that don't appeal to me personally, let me be clear that I'm not judging anyone that does enjoy them. (Heck, my purchasing of Diageo, Inc. stock is counting on it. ) If there's arrogance coming across in the way that I write then it is just poor communication skills on my part. That having been said, adopting an attitude of self-respect for one's choices is normal for everyone. It's certainly better than saying "I suck. Those people are so much better than me. I wish I was having that kind of fun."

And I'm not claiming that there's anything "special and precious" about being reclusive, just that it is a real and prevalent personality trait. No one has claimed that one personality type is superior to another, just that introversion is real and it does shape many people's worldview. How does talking about this diminish your approach to life? It's not a zero sum game. One person's approach doesn't subtract from another's.

Brad

Brad, I find it interesting that the only thing you quoted from my specific reply were the two hot button phrases, but none of the context. I don't really think this is fair. So, let's look at the context. In your previous reply to me you stated this:
Quote:
Any criticisms that we apply to other people are largely used as a defense mechanism, but I don't interpret that as narcissism.
My reply, which was mostly dealing with this sentence, was as follows:
Quote:
But don't you see these "defense mechanisms" frequently come across as arrogant and dismissive (at least to me they do)? The incessant putting down of the ways others try to interact (or just have a little fun) may be a defense, but it puts off others.
Notice the qualifiers Brad (in bold). Also, notice that you originally said that "Any criticisms that we apply to other people" and yet in your last post, you claim you are not critical at all:
Quote:
. . . let me be clear that I'm not judging anyone that does enjoy them
It's unfair to claim to use criticism of other's lifestyles as a defense mechanism and then when confronted with an opinion on the possible consequences of that criticism, you suddenly claim it doesn't exist. You snipping all context of my comments and leaving just the accusatory phrases may have removed the context of my reply, but my post is still there.

Now let's look at the context of the second hot button phrase:
Quote:
It's also offputting to hear how special and precious the feelings of an introvert are, as if those of us who actually try to interact don't have fears of rejection or making idiots of ourselves . . . if we even have feelings at all.
You said ealier in the thread that introverts aren't like others, that their needs are somehow different than what was being suggested by me and others:
Quote:
My response to this kind of advice is that introverts don't just want to be noticed or acknowledged; we want to be valued and desired, preferably by someone whose opinion we actually respect. That's a tall order to ask of strangers (especially drunken ones), so casual social situations don't really seem to provide the promised opportunities for the meaningful connections that we are really seeking.
Forgive me if that statement was interpreted as saying the needs of introverts are different (and therefore more "special") than was assumed by us non-introverts (whooo boy, my mom would get a kick out of me claiming to be a non-introvert).

Throw in the "preferably by someone whose opinion we actually respect", the "(especially drunken ones)" or the reference to "meaningful connections that we are really seeking" (as if no one else seeks meaningful relationships) and I don't think it was just me who took that as a dig on the generic "fake" people whom you claim introverts do not criticize. Yes, you have parsed your posts well and have done a good job of painting me as terribly misunderstanding or even the bad guy, but look closer and what seem like benign statements could also be seen as loaded for bear (but maybe it was a defense mechanism).
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post #53 of 69
6/23/08 at 8:44am

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
I find it interesting that the only thing you quoted from my specific reply were the two hot button phrases, but none of the context.

Did the context change the meaning of the quoted words? Because those quoted words were really the only thing I wanted to address in my reply. I'm not ignoring that these are your personal impressions, I'm taking that as a given - why would they be anything else? And since I can only speak for myself, let me be clear that 99% of these "criticisms that I apply to other people" exist only as unverbalized thoughts. You can't be put off by something I'm thinking, can you? You can certainly be put off by the things that you think that I'm thinking. For example,

By your reactions, this seems to be what you read:

Quote:
My response to this kind of advice is that introverts (are special and) don't just want to be noticed or acknowledged (like normal people); we want to be valued and desired (by everyone for our awesomeness), (but especially by those) preferably by someone whose opinion we actually respect. That's a tall order to ask of strangers (especially drunken ones), (Drunk people suck,) so casual social situations don't really seem to provide the promised opportunities for the meaningful connections (hardcore sex) that we are really seeking. (It's just a bunch of fake douchbags)

Yet here was my intention:

Quote:
My response to this kind of advice is that introverts don't just want to be noticed or acknowledged (the goal isn't just to not be ignored); we want to be valued and desired (the same as everyone else does - the relationship that we think everyone but us is engaging in), preferably by someone whose opinion we actually respect (since we have so much difficulty socializing anyway, it would be better to find the most rewarding personal relationships that we can with as little conflict as possible) That's a tall order (It's the hardest relationship to find) to ask of strangers (especially drunken ones (who are seldom genuine with their affections)), so casual social situations don't really seem to provide the promised opportunities for the meaningful connections that we are really seeking.

All of which was intended as a precursor to my advice to seek out like minded people for interaction prior to seeking out the locations with the most people - or perhaps the most sociable people.

Quote:
Yes, you have parsed your posts well and have done a good job of painting me as terribly misunderstanding or even the bad guy, but look closer and what seem like benign statements could also be seen as loaded for bear (but maybe it was a defense mechanism).

I think the antagonism started when I typed one phrase...

Quote:
Jeff or someone else with the answers to social anxiety always jump into these threads (search for the Valentine's Day thread) to tell us...

That's where I went wrong and that's probably where you started reading criticisms into the text and began responding to an attack. I'm sorry about that. Kiss and make up?

Back to the thread - where's Robert?

Brad
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post #54 of 69
6/23/08 at 9:12am

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Actually Brad, the antagonism started here:

Quote:
You'll likely still feel "invisible" in casual social situations, but you can just rationalize it by realizing that all those apparently happy people out there are just shallow, vapid, douchebag meat sacks that aren't worth knowing.

I included your smiley, because I know this was intended to come across as tongue and cheek, but in my experience there is often a big honkin' NY Strip steak sized layer of this utter disdain under the gentle exterior of "I'm not critical of others, I'm just a misunderstood introvert." In my experience, it is this resentment and disdain, which may honestly be a result of self-defense, which causes the "apparently happy" people to not even try to include and/or converse with the anti-social . . . erm . . . introverts they come across.

How do I know this about the attitude common to introverts? Weeell . . . I was once (and in many ways still am) one of you. To paraphrase what Patton said to Rommell, "You magnificent bastard(s), I read your book!!!"
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post #55 of 69
6/23/08 at 4:04pm

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

A few other things to try (if they haven't been mentioned already):

yoga and group fitness classes (often mostly women)

swing and ballroom dances and classes- People need a partner to do these dances, and often more women than men show up. Plus the etiquette is usually to say yes when asked to dance (even if you are there with a spouse), so you can literally dance with 20 or 30 people in one session. And since the dances have specific steps to them, there isn't the awkward "what do I do next" you get with free-form nightclub type dancing... plus the basics are fairly easy to learn, so you can at least do the steps the first time you go. People are usually friendly, the music isn't so loud that you can't talk, and so on.

I think nightclubs are the about the worst place for shy guys to go, unless you just want to drink or the like. Why? Because odds are you won't talk to people, will see other guys having a good time with women, and will probably feel even worse about yourself than if you hadn't gone... unless you are able to just treat the whole thing as an exercise in people watching.
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post #56 of 69
6/23/08 at 7:48pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad Porter
Back to the thread - where's Robert?

Brad

Hey Brad and others. I've been unpacking and doing other moving-into-a-new-house activities. I didn't realize how many people would chime in, many with feelings similar to mine.

Brad, you hit the nail on the head. I'm an introvert, but not by choice. I can't choose to be extroverted, just like I can't choose to be 6 feet tall, to be a different race, or to be anything else beyond my control.

If I could choose to be the life of the party, and if I could have chosen (in my younger years) to be a chick magnet just by donning a different personality, I would have done so. But it doesn't work that way.

I can't just decide to change and then ... voila, a new me, a different personality. Believe me, I tried. I joined local meetup groups, did the local HT groups, played in Texas Hold'em groups, tried 8 minute dating when I was single, went to night clubs, etc. I did get a few dates out of it and made some casual acquaintances, but in spite of all those opportunities, I failed to make one true friend. That's frustrating. Very frustrating.

Am I wrong to want a few normal guy friends to come over and watch a ball game every now and again? To go out to a pub? Fire up the grill, play cards, etc.

And yes, am I wrong for wanting an occasional glance from women, or the occasional flirt, if for no other reason than to feed my ever-shriveling ego.
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post #57 of 69
6/23/08 at 8:17pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

drobbins,

I can relate to a lot of what you said. People just don't know that I'm there. In your post, you said you don't have any interest in typical guy stuff. The funny thing is that I do, yet I can't find any sports nuts like me. If it were to happen a few times, that'd be fine, but for it to happen all the time is not a coincidence. I know ESPN and sportstalk radio were not invented solely for me, but judging by my life experience, they were, because no one else acts like they give a damn. How can that be? Are all sports guys blue collar?

It's frustrating because my GF can always make friends easily. She'll get invited to parties, happy hours, etc., but not me.

Like you said, for me, it's family, coworkers and HTF.

Maybe I should pay someone to videotape me at a few social functions so I can see myself in non-action. Maybe I could see some of the signals I emit that say "Please disburse. There's nothing to see here."

Quote:
Originally Posted by drobbins
Jeff, I agree with what you say about getting out and doing stuff, but I don't think you can relate to what Robert_Z is trying to convey. I will try to explain why I have always felt invisible.

...

It has been years since I was invited over to someones house for dinner. Even today when church is over, the kids are off with their friends. My wife has people come over to talk with her. But no one comes over to chat with me. I realise that it is a two way street and I go to talk with some of the guys. I might as well be a WalMart greeting person. All I ever get is a "Hi how are you?" I have gone to church functions where nobody comes over. These are good friendly people.

I just figured that we have no common interests. I know that friendships just happen. They can't be made to happen. As stated earlier I don't have any interest in the "normal" guy stuff like sport, golf, etc... They don't have any interest in building their own house, building a web page,etc... The only people I talk to regularly are my family, co-workers and you guys. For the most part, I am invisible.
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post #58 of 69
6/23/08 at 8:33pm

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

> It's frustrating because my GF can always make friends easily. She'll get invited to parties, happy hours, etc., but not me.

So you have a girlfriend but are unhappy with not getting enough attention from women? What am I missing here? The original post did not sound like someone who had a girlfiriend.

I don't know why it would be harder to make guy friends than to get a girlfriend- doesn't make sense to me.
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post #59 of 69
6/23/08 at 8:52pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood
I don't know why it would be harder to make guy friends than to get a girlfriend- doesn't make sense to me.

Tell me about it. You'd think being a Dallas Cowboys and San Antonio Spurs fan in San Antonio, TX, would make it easy as pie to get to know people, but not yet. I know there had to be hundreds of Spurs playoff watch parties, but I was invited to none of them. I knew of none of them. So back to my original post, I feel invisible and disconnected because people don't seem to share my interests.

About the women, I'm not saying I want to date. It'd just be nice to get noticed (instead of feeling invisible) once in a while. I think most men could relate to the satisfaction of knowing you're being "checked out" by a good-looking woman. No motive, no expectation, just a nice pick-me-up.
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post #60 of 69
6/23/08 at 8:54pm

Re: Going thru life being unnoticed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Lockwood
> It's frustrating because my GF can always make friends easily. She'll get invited to parties, happy hours, etc., but not me.

So you have a girlfriend but are unhappy with not getting enough attention from women? What am I missing here? The original post did not sound like someone who had a girlfiriend.

I don't know why it would be harder to make guy friends than to get a girlfriend- doesn't make sense to me.

Yeah, I must say that revelation floored me. Robert, have you asked your GF if she feels you are "wrong for wanting an occasional glance from women, or the occasional flirt." Wait, check that. You're probably better off not asking that question.

One thing I will say, usually guys who have serious girlfriends end up spending less and less time with their guys friends and sports enthusiasm goes right out the window, so don't think of yourself as friendless; you're just resigned to the inevitable.

One thing I will say, keep upbeat and don't let your isolation breed bitterness and contempt. People seek out their own level of psychology, and you wouldn't want to be around introverted, bitter and contemptuous people any more than anyone else does. Some popular self-help groups have a saying - "Fake it to make it", which means you should think positive, and even if you are truly miserable, you should "fake" a positive outlook. Eventually, all that positive thinking becomes habit and you realize it doesn't matter if it was fake in the beginning or not - you're the one with the smile on your face. People like smiles!
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