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The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews - Page 34  

post #991 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry-N
No-one fought as hard to keep this thread open (back in the earliest days of it) as I did - and I truly hate to see it closed because so many people seem to only want to discuss bootlegs.

That line of discussion is forbidden here, and I sincerely hope that everyone will just abide by those rules.

Harry
Harry,

I edited my post out of respect for your comments.
post #992 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Point-Blank
well i don't know mr. epstein and i can't speak for him or his staff but it seems to me that htf must sometimes be good will ambassadors to the studios in order to get us the most information that they can. i'm also sure that they are dependent on the studio for such necessities as screener copies of dvds and sample equipment in order to provide us with educated reviews. if i were them i would not tolerate the excessive studio bashing that has gone on in this thread. i think it goes beyond just having an objective point-of-view when you are in charge of something as ambitious in scope as htf. mr. epstein was right to shut this thread down when everyone started to get out of control and was insulting people at the studios and clamoring that the studios don't have our best interests at heart. to anger the studios who respect mr. epstein so much and what he's trying to do at htf seems to me to be counter-productive. i think that alternative opinions are all well and good, but not when they threaten the healthy and honest philosophy of a site like htf which knows that business is business and there should always be room for compromise.
I'm sure if either owner or any moderator had a problem with the posts in this thread or felt that it was somehow tarnishing HTF's image, it would be removed. In fact, someone did get banned over an incident back when this thread was first started.

Quote:
obviously we can agree to disagree. i like cbs/paramount and think that they had to make a choice. some folks want to see it as being unethical or having no integrity, but those people must not have much business experience. i'll take my tv on dvd anyway i can get it as long as i know that the studio did the best job they could under the circumstances.
Sure, they had choice and I'm sure it was a financial decision because they are a business and they have a budget that they have to meet. However, by not informing the consumers that the entire score was changed shows that they tried to slide it past people and hope that no one would notice. On the other hand, Universal is releasing Night Gallery: Season Two and it's missing a segment or two. They announced this problem months in advance and there was no big uproar and that's mostly likely due to them being upfront and not putting it out and pretending that everything was OK.
post #993 of 1043
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

The comment, "who cares what's been changed as long as we get to see the show again?" makes no sense because you are not getting to see the show again. This is the first time it has been seen with the perverted underscore.

The style and voice of those comments remind me of those bogus 5-star reviews of S2V1 on Amazon.
post #994 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Oh, I think it's clear what's going on here - really really clear.
post #995 of 1043
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Yes, and the fact that those 5 star reviews continue, all by reviewers who have never reviewed a single thing on Amazon before, tell me that S2V2 with replaced music is somewhere on the horizon.
post #996 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

You really think Paramount is having employees write fake reviews on Amazon or here? With the flood of negative reviews, it would be a futile gesture. I think it's much more likely that there's random fans who are happy to see the show even in a ruined form and they feel the need to convince everyone else that it's fine too and that they shouldn't complain about a 'minor' issue like the removal of the score.
post #997 of 1043
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

If you go and read some of the reviews, all by first time reviwers, many of them make no sense. Whoever is behind it, the intent is to inflate the ratings.

Out of the dozens of 4- or 5-star reviews, I read only three or four that I believed were sincere.
post #998 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I'm not in favor of studio bashing either when the comments are petty or unreasonable. In the case of THE FUGITIVE though, CBS/P deserved every bit of criticism they got. Even putting aside the fact the changes were later shown to be unnecessary, CBS/P was deliberately deceitful about making them and when called on it they essentially refused to be held accountable for them.

Let's not forget that it is the consumers who are forking over their hard earned money here. They have a right to be fully informed about what they are buying. If this kind of deception occured with another kind of product consumer advocacy groups would be all over it.

It goes both ways on HTF. When studios put out first rate products there is no shortage of posts praising them. CBS/P has received a lot of this praise in the past. But when a studio messes up, they should expect to hear about it. Some posters may go over the top but the majority make their points respectfully but firmly.

CBS/P messed up here. They would have done themselves a HUGE favor by being upfront about the changes before hand. Had they done so not only would have they avoided the backlash but quite probably would have approached by individuals who would have helped them avoid this wholesale replacement in the first place.

Let's not forget that Warner Home Video has said publically that criticism from HTF on various topics has influenced some of their business decisions. The good studios listen and respond to their consumers. Even Universal finally dumped the flippers.
post #999 of 1043
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the time frame with the past FUGITIVE releases, if it held, would mean we'd already have gotten the solicit on S2V2 by now. We haven't. Who knows if that means anything. I'm just pointing it out.
post #1000 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

What makes the CBS/Paramount action with "Fugitive" season two so unfathomable -- namely their not saying the music was replaced, just that the audio was "restored" -- was they only had to follow their own example with "Hawaii Five-O" season two (I think; could have been season three). One episode was not included, and the packaging plainly stated that fact. Result: some criticism, but overall not much.

I don't like a company saying something has been restored when in fact it has been replaced with an inferior product. All I ask is honesty.
post #1001 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I just wanted to use this historic 1,000th (oops, 1,001st) post on this thread to say it's been a very interesting read, with everything you want in a good drama: shock, outrage, despair, bitterness, comiseration, brotherhood, innovation, hope, and, if CBS/Paramount was paying any attention for the next set, perhaps a little redemption. To all who spilled some guts here, thanks for the ride!
post #1002 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

As the owner of the second reply in the thread and the exposer of the "Mark Heyes" credit, I guess I could be one of the ones to say "You're welcome."

Unfortunately, it's still true that every time I look on my DVD shelf and gaze over at the three releases in THE FUGITIVE series, I get that queasy feeling in my stomach that I might not ever get to see the rest of this acclaimed series, in pristine form, the way it was intended - and the way it COULD be.

In fact, as a responder in this thread, I get an email everytime someone replies, so I have had at least a thousand emails to remind me of this ugly situation that CBS/Paramount has put us in. I know I could change that setting, but I continue to hope that one of the replies some day will be good news about a replacement program or a re-issue, or even just about a further release in the series.

It hasn't happened yet, and lately all we've gotten are suspicious-sounding replies about how wonderful CBS/Paramount is and how rotten we bad posters are.

Oh well. Back to work.

Harry
post #1003 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

well i don't know if people above are intimating that i am a plant for cbs/paramount or what but does anyone honestly think that the good folks at htf would allow such shameless shilling on behalf of the studios? i mean that would infer that they are somehow beholden to the studios just because they get free stuff from them and the studios help sponsor all their hollywood based meetings. i highly doubt that mr. epstein would ever allow such things to influence the discussions in a public forum or sway his objectivity when the public is critical of something the studios do. it's silly to think that they would be so sensitive as to compromise free speech in order to favor the studios just because they own the site and can make any rules they want. if that were the case then posters in this very thread and all over htf would be banned for purely personal and arbitrary reasons. does anyone really think this is being done? i'd sure like to know because i just joined here and if there's a conspiracy theory i should know about, please tell me.

the simple fact is that cbs/paramount and htf are simply "taking care of business." as with anyone else in life if you don't like it then pursue "alternatives."
post #1004 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Point-Blank
well i don't know if people above are intimating that i am a plant for cbs/paramount or what but does anyone honestly think that the good folks at htf would allow such shameless shilling on behalf of the studios?

I certainly never implied any such thing, but how would anyone at HTF know if you were an employee/shill of CBS/Paramount. It's not like they do background checks on their members. OR DO THEY?...
post #1005 of 1043
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I'm looking up the definition of "a tempest in a teapot...."
post #1006 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by John DeAngelis
I certainly never implied any such thing, but how would anyone at HTF know if you were an employee/shill of CBS/Paramount. It's not like they do background checks on their members. OR DO THEY?...

well the good folks at htf are very tight with the studios so i would think they might know if a studio plant was posting, but u may be right they might not. i would think that in the same way they might ban someone who is overly critical of the studios, for business reasons, they might also ban someone who overly praises a studio altho that probably wouldn't make for good business. i'm confused as to how everything is run here or with the studios. i guess in a way i'm reminded of joseph stalin who used to order that old photographs be doctored in such a way as to remove those people in them who he didn't like. in effect he rewrote history. that reminds me of what cbs/paramount did with THE FUGITIVE and MY THREE SONS. i guess you never know what folks might do when they have the power and you don't.
post #1007 of 1043
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Point Blank, go read the forum rules. Perhaps then you won't be confused. Folks can champion any opinion they want, for or against the studios, as long as they play within the boundaries of the posted rules.

That's why we have rules--so there's no confusion.
post #1008 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

If they banned everyone who criticized the studios, there'd be very few people here.

It's funny, I usually see people complaining about the most minute or meaningless things about a release and no one has a problem with that. In this case, there's a real problem with a release and someone doesn't think that anyone should be allowed to complain.
post #1009 of 1043
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

My personal opinion is that whoever got the "brilliant" idea to redo the score still believes they are a genius, and the more people say they don't like it, the more this "genius" believes they were right.

I have no hard evidence to support my assertion. I can't prove it; it is simply my gut feeling. I think they've invested a lot of money in a new music library and have long term plans to replace many an underscore. They didn't expect the magnitude of the public outcry, and since they're convinced they're right, there's nothing left for them to do but begin the process of insitutionalizing the idea. And I think a lot of these bizzare posts on Amazon and elsewhere are evidence of it.
post #1010 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabimero
Point Blank, go read the forum rules. Perhaps then you won't be confused. Folks can champion any opinion they want, for or against the studios, as long as they play within the boundaries of the posted rules.

That's why we have rules--so there's no confusion.

my guess is that just like with my example using Stalin to rewrite history, which is in effect what cbs/paramount did, though on a much smaller scale, is that people are banned and disappear all the time from HTF for one reason or another. the folks who have power don't always play by the boundaries of their own posted "rules." they do as they see fit no matter how arbitrary it may be. in any case, irony is an important facet of any business. sometimes things aren't what they appear to be on the surface. but that's life, isn't it? maybe that's something you can look into. it's usually found between the lines of all the rules everywhere in the world. those who make the rules can do anything they want and they do.
post #1011 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
My personal opinion is that whoever got the "brilliant" idea to redo the score still believes they are a genius, and the more people say they don't like it, the more this "genius" believes they were right.

I have no hard evidence to support my assertion. I can't prove it; it is simply my gut feeling. I think they've invested a lot of money in a new music library and have long term plans to replace many an underscore. They didn't expect the magnitude of the public outcry, and since they're convinced they're right, there's nothing left for them to do but begin the process of insitutionalizing the idea. And I think a lot of these bizzare posts on Amazon and elsewhere are evidence of it.

David, I'd say that there is a great deal of validity to your gut feeling. Mine says that the the composer directly responsible for the new score even now can't imagine classic tv fans not being in love with the idea of replacing 'dated' music composition.
post #1012 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Point-Blank
it's usually found between the lines of all the rules everywhere in the world. those who make the rules can do anything they want and they do.
You don't have to look between the lines. Our Rules come out and say that we can do whatever we want. Still, we do try to behave rationally, as most members will attest. If you have a specific complaint, perhaps you could contact us privately. Otherwise, please stick to the thread topic.

And BTW -- comparing studios and forum staff to Stalin is not an effective way to win friends and influence people.
post #1013 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Point-Blank
i'm confused as to how everything is run here or with the studios.

There is nothing to be confused about. I have been reviewing Sony/Columbia product for nearly two years, and not once has the studio (a) attempted to influence a review or (b) complained about a negative review. I believe that the studios understand that HTF would lose all credibility if we were merely shills for them. We call 'em as we see 'em.
post #1014 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Let me bring some much needed clarification to this thread (though
most of it has been correctly clarified already in the past few posts).

If anyone wishes to assume that our close relationship with the studios
puts us in the category of being "shills," then that is a very ill-perceived
assumption.

The truth of the matter is that this forum's first priority is towards the
free exchange of opinions whether it is in favor of a studio or not.

That being said, there are ground rules here for the way in which
we permit such discussion. While negative opinions are always
welcome, they are to be expressed in a polite and constructive manner.
In other words, if you have a problem with a studio's product it should
be presented in a factual manner that does not come off as being a
blatant attack. It should be criticism that invites intelligent follow-up
discussion.

In reality, that's not a lot to ask for.

And because this forum promotes that sort of philosophy in our
discussions, we have earned respect from the studios that not many
other similar discussion forums have. Absolutely, we work very
closely with the studios, but that enables us to keep a direct line of
communication open that would be normally be closed if we allowed
some of the nasty rhetoric that often gets posted on other sites.

The fact we get invited out to Hollywood in the first place is because
of our reputation for having professional relationships between our
membership and the studios. When our members meet with studio
executives their exchanges are professional. This is the same kind
of behavior we expect from every member, every day within this forum.

The reason our Moderators and I will often step up and defend
a particular studio when others feel disgruntled, is because we are
usually in a position to know more about the way the studios work
internally when it comes to particular issues and legalities. Based on
our experiences, when sudden changes are made to a DVD or
BD release, we tend to look at things from a studio point-of-view
and offer those opinions in hopes that the studios are represented
fairly since they will not openly come to this forum to comment.

In fact, if you gauge the opinions of most people who have gone
on our HTF MEETS over the past years and personally talked with
studio people, you'll find they understand this industry a lot better
than they used to. The reality is, studios can't simply slap everything
people want onto a disc with every release. The legalities involved
in getting many of these classic titles to the public is just astounding.
However, when the Moderators, informed members or I bring those
reasons to light, we are marked as "shills."

In the case of this very thread involving The Fugitive release, it
was obvious there was a major problem. It didn't help that someone was
posting rhetoric here towards Paramount and asking people to make
horrendously nasty calls to someone at the studio who had nothing to do
with the decision that was made.

Furthermore, when I step in and give my opinion on why the changes
to the music were probably made --- merely based on discussions I have
had with other studios regarding their television product --- a member
here goes back on his blog and takes my comments out of context to
create further sensationalism. And you know what? As much as I wanted
to remove that member for the misrepresented comments....I didn't.



So, let me discuss with you what kind of people are readily removed
from this forum....

Mainly, anyone who disrupts the professional environment we had
hoped to create here.

* Spammers

* Those with agendas to post negative post after negative post
in order to ensure their opinion is the one heard most.

* Those who rile up other members, encouraging them to write
nasty letters to a studio or manufacturer.

* Those who bring politics or religion into a discussion.

* Those who openly criticize our Moderators, owners or rules. Such
discussions should go private with any one of the staff members whose
email addresses are readily available.

And yes, we can pretty much do whatever we want around here to
enforce the rules. That being said, other than one individual at the
moment, I see very little complaining about the way we keep this
forum orderly. Our initial approach to online discussion was very
unique at a time when Internet discussion was untamed. We have been
around for over 11 years and boast a huge membership that continues to
grow at leaps and bounds. We must be doing something right.
post #1015 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

it was determined that my response to mr. epstein be kept private, so as to keep this thread on topic. suffice to say that we can agree to disagree and move on. my posts on this subject speak for themselves i won't post anymore in this thread.

as for the topic at hand, before i go i would like to ask mr. epstein if he is saying in his post that as a venerated insider and studio confidante, he understands and possibly supports what cbs/paramount did to this release of THE FUGITIVE? i would really like to know his position on it. thanks.
post #1016 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

My position has been and continues to be this....

I know the legalities concerning music issues that studios run into
when putting classic television on DVD. Music issues can doom a
series from ever seeing the light of day due to the fact that licensing
costs are exorbitant.

If this is the issue that Paramount was faced with THE FUGITIVE
(and I have no idea if it was), this may have been a matter of getting
it out now or never. Under those circumstances, I can understand a
decision to change the music to get the release through. This was
done with at least one Fox TV show that I know of.

However, I do not support the fact that the studio made such changes without
making any indication on its packaging. That suggests that the studio
was hoping to get the changes in without being noticed. Obviously it
angered a lot of fans, which I understand and whom I sympathize with.

So, no, I don't support a studio making such elaborate changes to
its original soundtrack without labeling its packaging as such. Fans
should not be blind-sighted by changes like these when making costly
purchases.
post #1017 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein
So, no, I don't support a studio making such elaborate changes to
its original soundtrack without labeling its packaging as such. Fans
should not be blind-sighted by changes like these when making costly
purchases.

Certainly agreed, of course. Nor should Paramount have attempted to pass off a Mark Heyes-scored "Fugitive" #2-1 as the genuine article by inserting his name into the credits of each episode so that no one would be the wiser. That's fooling nobody, and it will not work-- we can see right through their subterfuge that something is inside (i.e. screwy) when it comes to CBS/Paramount and "The Fugitive."

I mean, after all, they did more for "Lucy" to ensure that the releases of that series would be the genuine article and not a third-rate smoke job. They used uncut episodes, remastered all the episodes, and added practically tons of bonuses. If they can make a genuine article of the "Lucy" releases, then why couldn't they do that for "The Fugitive"?
post #1018 of 1043
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Lucille Ball had a big hand in making Paramount what it was/is. The Fugitive has no hardcore history with CBS/Paramount, to the best of my knowledge. That may not have anything to do with the issues you raise, but it's worth mentioning.
post #1019 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabimero
Lucille Ball had a big hand in making Paramount what it was/is. The Fugitive has no hardcore history with CBS/Paramount, to the best of my knowledge. That may not have anything to do with the issues you raise, but it's worth mentioning.

Certainly, yes. Thanks for saying so. As a matter of fact, "Lucy" is one of the series that was featured in that trade ad from CBS-Paramount that said that they put classic TV on a pedestal, and based on the fact that, as you said, Lucille Ball helped greatly to make Paramount what it was and is, it is no wonder that they would go out of their way to make the "Lucy" releases the genuine article.

However, there are a lot of people that also grew up around "The Fugitive" and "My Three Sons," and for CBS-Paramount to not make those releases the genuine article (in other words, to make the releases incompatible with how people remembered the shows) shows, as has been said here before, that they are not fully living up to that claim of "putting classic TV on a pedestal."
post #1020 of 1043

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmasters9
Certainly, yes. Thanks for saying so. As a matter of fact, "Lucy" is one of the series that was featured in that trade ad from CBS-Paramount that said that they put classic TV on a pedestal, and based on the fact that, as you said, Lucille Ball helped greatly to make Paramount what it was and is, it is no wonder that they would go out of their way to make the "Lucy" releases the genuine article.

However, there are a lot of people that also grew up around "The Fugitive" and "My Three Sons," and for CBS-Paramount to not make those releases the genuine article (in other words, to make the releases incompatible with how people remembered the shows) shows, as has been said here before, that they are not fully living up to that claim of "putting classic TV on a pedestal."

Again,CBS took the eazy way out on the releases not expecting folks who could tell the difference in the music would make the biggest fuss!

Well, guess what - THE FUGITIVE has the best remembered music of any show from the 1960's! (Maybe ROUTE 66 comes a close 2nd Thanks to Nelson Riddle!) and PEOPLE DO NOTICE!

I swear, maybe it's time for someone to put together a consumers buyers group to show the studios that as customers we won't stand for piss poor or sloppy treatment of classic tv (Something that TV SHOWS ON DVD.com should be more in the forfont of,but I guess they need to stay neutral and impartial. )

But then the under 35's who run the video divisions don't give a rats arse about some old B&W TV show their Parents or Grandparents enjoyed!
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