The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews - Page 4  

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

deleted - erroneous post

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I just found out about this abomination today, on this and a couple of other forums, and am alternately dumbfounded and livid. I had just ordered the set via DD's big "20% off" sale yesterday, but when it arrives in my mailbox, it's going right back, unopened.

This sickens me (both the change, and the sneaky way it was done), and what also makes me ill are all the crappy shows (I won't list them, so as not to offend their fans here) that are (and will be) released intact, while this cornerstone of classic tv drama now gets the fuzzy end of the lollipop stick, after a reasonably sterling (albeit no-frills) release of the first season.

The industry precedent set by this total soundtrack switch doesn't exactly inspire a warm, joyful feeling inside me, either...

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Speaking of Dominic Frontiere, is this Outer Limits soundtrack release from La-La-Land Records mentioned on this thread a new release of Outer Limits music or is it the same release as the 1993 Crescendo release? Inquiring TOL fans want to know. Thanks.

We now return control of this thread to your regularly-scheduled Fugitive frustrations.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

CBS will have no problem faking more bogus credits like those inserted in S2V1.

Re: "THE FUGITIVE" S2, V1 MUSIC CHANGES

I've never posted here before, but I've always enjoyed reading everybody's opinions here. But since part of this post was directed at me -- with a tone of anger -- I thought maybe I should reply.

As I said in the forum post that accompanies my review (you can view it by clicking the "Discuss" button on the review), I don't like this situation any more than anybody else. I'm not "for" cutting out original music cues. Just because I don't mention those cuts -- specifically because I didn't have any concrete information on them when I wrote the review -- doesn't mean I endorse them.

If your point then is to somehow upbraid me for calling myself a "Fugitive fanatic" and not detailing the music cuts, that sounds more to me like a potential pissing contest on a forum, of which I'm all too familiar with from other reviews I've written. I've never said I'm an "expert" on the show. I haven't seen the episodes since they aired back in the early 90s on A&E. And I don't have an encyclopedic memory of each and every one of them. Far from it. In many ways, I feel like I'm rediscovering this series all over again -- and I want to share that enthusiasm with new viewers, as well.

Is it "right" or "fair" that the studios cut out this music? From an aesthetic standpoint, absolutely not. But from a financial one? I don't know; I don't know the facts in this particular case. I like to bitch about studio stupidity myself (I hate the split-seasons, and I say so in my reviews), but I also know that many of these decisions are strictly money-related. I know it feels good to demand that these studios do what we say, but that's not reality. And it wasn't reality when The Fugitive was first broadcast. Everybody who worked on that show did so to make money. Yours and my experience of the show may be outside that realization, but money certainly was -- and is -- the only factor driving television production. It's a nasty fact, but true. They didn't make The Fugitive first for "art's sake." They made it to sell soap.

And now they're selling it again on DVD -- for money. It may offend our aesthetic grasp of the show, to view it in those terms, but that's reality. We may want to say, "How dare you do this to a show I love?" and we may feel like something that was important to us was "ruined," but we don't "own" that experience alone. That "experience" of course was bought and paid for by moneymen. And they have the right to do what they want with that product. Often times, the tone of these posts is one of the studios doing this on purpose. I don't think so. They're businesspeople. They want to make as much money as possible, with as little outlay as possible. If they thought shelling out a lot of money for music rights would give them X-amount of dollars, they'd do so. Perhaps they can't in this situation; perhaps the rights to the music is tied up by a relative or copyright holder who is holding up the studio for more dough -- money that wouldn't be made back with the relatively small sales of The Fugitive as compared to the latest Hollywood blockbuster on DVD.

As I say in my review, the reverse of that is the power the consumer has: if you don't like it, don't buy it. I come down on the side of wanting as many people as possible to see this brilliant show -- even in a compromised format. Is it perfect the way it is? No. But enough is there that's valuable (and far better than anything on TV today), so people should see it. Especially people new to vintage TV, who may be resistent to watching "old black and white."

You mention The Beatles being supplanted with The Monkees on a CD. That's not an apt comparison at all here. There's more to The Fugitive than just music; you're watching, obviously, pictures, too. You're listening to well-crafted dialogue and watching exciting, moving performances. All of that would be lost if we just said, "Don't watch it; the music is different." As a film reviewer for over 25 years, I grew up watching classic motion pictures on TV -- regular broadcast TV, before cable, before VCRs -- with commercials and cropped images "ruining" films. We didn't know any better, but it certainly didn't "spoil" those experiences. It was still meaningful to watch them, even in their compromised form. And it gave me my love of movies.

If I take your argument to its logical conclusion, I could say that nobody should watch vintage TV shows in any format today...other than on an analog signal sent over the airwaves, to be received on your black and white tube-filled TV. No DVDs. No videos. And put the constant commercial breaks back, too. Because that's how The Fugitive was originally shown and viewed by its audience. If you really believe that absolute fidelity to the aesthetic experience is mandatory, than DVDs -- even those with complete episodes with no cuts -- are still a compromise to the original experience, and therefore, unworthy of anyone's time.

Obviously, I'm exaggerating to make a point, but not by much. If Paramount pulled the music from The Fugitive, it was for a reason -- financial, legal, who knows. I'm not sure they did it just to piss you off; otherwise, why go to all the trouble of restoring the picture? They could have saved even more money, and screwed you over there, too. So, perhaps, it was out of their control. Who knows. But one thing I've never seen in any of these forums bashing the studios, is anyone commenting on the composers or copyright holders who ask outrageous amounts for licensing fees, thereby assuring themselves of getting kicked off the DVDs? That does happen, and perhaps that happened here. Again, we don't know. But I think enough of what is on The Fugitive Second Season Volume I DVDs is important enough for viewers to see -- compromised or not.

Paul Mavis
DVDTalk.com
Online Film Critics Society

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Surely you jest, Bob!

Not only will Season 1 not have to be re-pressed, but S2V1 and any subsequent volumes will end up in Wal-Mart's DVDumpster bins for $9.99.

I can't believe that one of the most-requested TV shows of all time on DVD would end up in this butchered form!?!

By the way folks, the Heyes music is mixed so loud and has so much tympani, it actually drowns William Conrad's closing epilogue on more than half of the 15 episodes.

Re: "THE FUGITIVE" S2, V1 MUSIC CHANGES

Paul, your reviews are top-notch. I've printed each one out and folded them on the shelf with S1V1 and S1V2. Whether you missed catching the totally altered music or not in S2V1 and for whatever reason, is not the heart of the issue here.

What IS the heart of the matter is the fact that the music on The Fugitive has a life and reputation of its own. It's a reputation and popularity not shared by very many other TV shows of that era. I cite, as proof, the long out-of-print The Fugitive - Soundtrack CD of Rugolo's theme and variations. It rarely appears on Amazon and even less frequently on eBay. I paid some hefty money for the CD on Amazon a few years ago.

This show is a tuxedo, and now with brown shoes as the music.

It's not just about the music...it's ALL about the music!

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Does anyone have a "best email address" for us to inflict invective onto Paramount/CBS?

Cannot wait to write to them.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Having been through this gauntlet several times with Disney & Warner Brothers (yes, I watch cartoons rather than read the day's headlines or burn $4 gas)...

Email is too easy to filter and/or delete before reaching powerful eyes. Email away, but also phone calls and processed tree carcass mail are most effective.

(Insert phone number and mailing address below)

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Hollywoodaholic,

That's a good question. I've been trying to find out that answer for the past half hour. I hope it's new material, since I can think of several cues that aren't on the 1993 release that I would love to have. For example, the music in Keeper of the Purple Twilight, just before Ikar stomps on all of the ants, is one segment I hope is released. (It is heard elsewhere in the episode as well.) That's been one of my favorite themes since childhood. I'd also love to have another copy of Lubin's second-season closing music, even though it is available on one of the volumes of Television's Greatest Hits. (This is the one that is a variation on the theme you hear in One Step Beyond.)

Please let me know if you find out about this, and I'll do the same.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

It's a new and more thorough release than the old GNP Crescendo disc:

LA LA LAND RECORDS, OUTER LIMITS

Limited edition, it claims. We've already missed the autographed versions that were available for about 1 day.

Harry

Re: "THE FUGITIVE" S2, V1 MUSIC CHANGES

Just because you didn't mention them? In the context of your review, that's like the captain of the Titanic saying: "Just because I didn't see the iceberg."

Look, this is "The Fugitive". Not some obscure Japanese TV drama from the 1950s which happens to be a hidden masterpiece. (Or, to keep it local, it isn't "Johnny Staccato".) As many people reviewing the 1960s sets have written, "The Fugitive" is as much a part of 1960s pop culture as the Beatles, John Glenn, or Vietnam. And, second only to Janssen himself, Pete Rugulo's music is remembered as the heart and soul of this part. One could use Rugulo's swooning sound as backdrop for much of the tragedy of that tortured decade.

And you didn't notice it was gone? Then why were you reviewing this in the first place?


Then what are the folks over at DVDTalk paying you for? They hand you the plum assignment of reviewing one of the staples of American TV culture, of which you know next to nothing, and because you know next to nothing you don't noticed that the Mona Lisa is now painted in pink-and-purple? And since you don't notice the change in colors, you don't do the work of contacting Paramount legal to ask why the painting has been destroyed. . .


My gosh, what a degraded view of "reality". Aside from the business stupidity of this decision -- only "Fugitive" fans would have bought this set anyway(for themselves or for others as gifts) and so the only bulk audience for the buy is the very audience that will vomit and boycott over this decision --, your tawdry "money makes the world go round" argument can be used to defend bootleggers, drug dealers and hitmen. And I'm sure all of us in this forum have many examples at our fingertips of DVD sets done and produced with love and care in spite of it's potential profit. ("Have Gun Will Travel" is my example. Until the same slugs who follow the Mavis Way of Life decided to can it.)


Actually, I think DVP was just being kind. It is actually worse than the Beatles/Monkees comparison because we have many, many ways to listen to the original embodiments of either of those groups. For the "Fugitive" it begins and ends HERE. Here -- with this defamation that you slough off so easily.

And your argument about "well, there's the acting and the pictures" etc -- no, there isn't. Not if one values the greatness of this show. Without the music, this car is missing one wheel. Maybe two. It won't run. It's worthless.


Wow! Sounds great to me. Where do I sign up?

And the fact that you think this possible scenario -- something I bet will be a piece of cake in 5 or 10 years -- is some silly exaggerration shows just how low your expectations must be.

Low enough to not have noticed the missing music.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

This one is a shocker, and I will admit I had never given any thought that there might be music issues with older shows that don't use actual pop songs. Is there a precedent for this kind of music problem? I am not familiar with any other series that has ran into this kind of thing with their backround music.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Meek, you're (rightly) angry about the music edits but it seems like you're taking alot of anger out on a reviewer. Obviously, he's not familiar enough with the show since he didn't notice it but what is arguing with him going to do about it?

And I don't think DVD Talk or any review site pay their reviwers.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

*snip*

Everyone has a right to be mad but their anger should be directed 100% at Paramount.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Then don't take all your anger out on DVDTalk. The HTF review didn't mention the music changes either. Neither did DVD Beaver.

To me, the bigger concern is whether or not this is going to become a standard practice from Paramount. My set is arriving from B&N tomorrow or Friday - not sure when I'm going to start it now.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

No sweat. I edited my post too.

Re: "THE FUGITIVE" S2, V1 MUSIC CHANGES

Meek Rubel, some people are into video, some are into music, some are into "extras" and others are into packaging...obviously Mr. Mavis is into cinematography and acting. Sobeit. Let's bottle all our anger and direct it toward people who wield some power in this industry, not Forum posters or ivory tower reviewers.

With that said, imagine a DVD release of The Sound of Music with Julie Andrews' songs replaced by Cher or Jessica Simpson. Do you think anyone would notice? Would anyone complain? Or what if they simply took out "all those pesky songs that made the story drag and the movie run too long"?

To Fugitive fans, and broadcast historians alike, this is equally as appalling. No amount of Pollyanna rationalization about the sharp video and Thespian acting can make up for the loss.

Now let's get some answers and try to get something accomplished with CBS/P. It's effort better spent.

Holy Mackerel, I still can't get over the "faked" credits at the end of each episode. GMAFB

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Harry (and Hollywoodaholic),

Many thanks. I'm looking at the link now. It looks like a wonderful collection. I think "The Creature Wakes (2:09)" (from Tourist Attraction) may be the identical music used in The Special One, during the point where the father is waiting in his chair for Mr. Zeno to return. This is one of the most haunting themes I've ever heard. I've discussed this segment (and esp. the lighting and timing with regard to the movement of the camera juxtaposed with the music) on another HTF thread.

Some of the music from Nightmare is available on the 1993 release; however, this looks to be more complete. I also own some of the music from 100 Days of the Dragon, but I can't recall having heard much material from The Human Factor or The Mice (on recordings) before.

Lastly, "THE OUTER LIMITS End Credits - Version #3 (0:48)" looks like it could be Lubin's second season closing theme, but I won't be sure until I hear it on the new CD. I just timed it, and it came out to 0:41 seconds. Hmmm.

This is the theme I am talking about:

http://mythemes.tv/series/themes/closing/outerli3.mp3

This three-disc set will be a welcome addition to my library.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

At least here, your point is well-taken; there is no defense, with all due respect, if it may please the Court.

I'm going to go watch a half-dozen Perry Mason's and try to calm down.
I hope all the music's there!

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

It would be nice to see a mainstream media outlet pick up the story, like Entertainment Weekly, or the DVD review column of the NY Times. It would increase awareness and hopefully outrage at this. Maybe then CBS/Paramount would deign us with an answer as to what happened. It is a story; not every day are 40 year old tv shows completely rescored and passed off to the unsuspecting as originals.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Scott, I'm not too sure about that. The description on the La-La Land wesbsite says that these tracks come from Dominic Frontiere's personal collection, and it specifically references the first season. I'm afraid that doesn't leave much room for any of Mr. Lubin's work.

Maybe I'll play the FUGITIVE CD, some TWILIGHT ZONE cues and this new OUTER LIMITS CD while watching Season Two with the sound off and captioning on!

Harry

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Then what qualifies him to be reviewing the show if he has no familiarity with it? That's like taking all of the Simon and Garfunkel songs out of The Graduate and then having someone write a review of the movie who's never seen it and doesn't know they're missing.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Harry,

Yeah, I think you're right. Even with "The Control Voice" lead-in, it comes up short.

LOL! Sounds like a plan.

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Let's not get sidetracked with reviewer's opinions or lack of information within their reviews.

Remember a few things:

DVD reviewers are just that - DVD reviewers. They're main function is to catalog the sound, the picture, and how well it's presented. If they're expected to be intimitely familiar with every TV show that issues a DVD, then they'd need a heck of a lot more reviewers. I'm willing to cut them a bit of a break if they rushed out a review and didn't thoroughly know the subject.

It's always best to take a review with a grain of salt anyway. I don't pay too much attention to movie reviewers either. Often they hate something and I love it, or vice versa. So when it comes to a DVD review of a TV show set, I'll read them, note what it says, and compare it with others.

That said, I find it almost amusing that the DVD Talk review, the HTF review, and the DVD Beaver review all managed to miss perhaps the story of the year as far as DVD production is concerned. This whole affair bodes poorly for us getting accurate reproductions of old shows. If Paramount gets away with this, what's to stop other companies from hiring a bunch of aspiring composers to churn out stuff for any number of classic DVD releases.

Harry

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Here's the link and the line-up of music on the La-La-Land Records site. I can tell you I already ordered a copy. Three hours of TOL music. Reportedly re-mastered and it was just released yesterday.

LA LA LAND RECORDS, OUTER LIMITS

Once again, Fugitive fans, sorry for the interruption. But this was very positive news to TOL fans in the middle of this controversy.

P.S. I was so excited, I responded before seeing Harry-N's post with the link.