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The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews - Page 28  

post #811 of 1043
7/16/08 at 12:38pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_ks
Now that's very interesting. I'll have to dig out my copy of Robertson's book and check this out for myself. Did Pete Rugolo himself compose it? Who else would it have been?


Even more frustrating, when I was re-reading the book, Rugolo said that he even wrote the fill in music for some of the background music: Example for the radios playing in the background and other things. I believe it was around page 34 or so where I saw this. If this is true, and I don't see any reason it wouldn't be since it was quoted from Rugolo himself, there was NO reason for CBS/Paramount to change ANY of the music. They were just too lazy and to fast to make a buck to check things out. Maybe we need to highlight this material and send them a copy of Robertson's book!
post #812 of 1043
7/16/08 at 12:45pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

You may all be forgetting one thing. A song used in a show actually has more than one "right" associated with it. There's also a thing called performance rights. It's possible that Janis Paige or her estate control her performance rights to the song and are either difficult or impossible to determine or work out.

It's the reason that most variety shows with music performances are not available in home video, as securing the rights are difficult, time-consuming, and likely prohibitive.

Harry
post #813 of 1043
7/16/08 at 1:58pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry-N
You may all be forgetting one thing. A song used in a show actually has more than one "right" associated with it. There's also a thing called performance rights. It's possible that Janis Paige or her estate control her performance rights to the song and are either difficult or impossible to determine or work out.

It's the reason that most variety shows with music performances are not available in home video, as securing the rights are difficult, time-consuming, and likely prohibitive.

Harry

If that is the case, why not just pay some one else to sing the song written for the show and replace it with some one else singing the song written? Instead, the write a new song, have some one sing it, and cut footage to make it work. Seems it would have been more cost effective to have some one else sing the song and lip sync it to the original footage.
post #814 of 1043
7/16/08 at 3:20pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLKINSER
If that is the case, why not just pay some one else to sing the song written for the show and replace it with some one else singing the song written? Instead, the write a new song, have some one sing it, and cut footage to make it work. Seems it would have been more cost effective to have some one else sing the song and lip sync it to the original footage.

Janis Paige's vocal would have been part of her contract for appearing in the show - a work for hire - and there would be no estate rights whatsoever. It's the USE of the song itself - if it wasn't composed specifically for the show, it could have publishing rights issues. If it was not recorded specifically for the show, i.e. is a popular record, then there are not only publishing rights but synch rights. If Janis Paige sung it FOR the show specifically, the only rights involved are publishing, and if it was a non-original to the show song, that could be a problem. If it was written for the show specifically and Miss Paige sang it, there should be no problem at all.

EDIT: I've now read the other posts from yesterday and understand that the song was part of the teleplay - therefore, whoever owns the publishing on the show owns that publishing to the song, so there should have been no problem keeping it. And no problem with Miss Paige's estate, since it was a work for hire. But you have these lawyers on salary whose job it is to raise questions about every issue - then everyone panics, doesn't do the research and this is the result - the bastardization of a classic show for absolutely no reason. Again, if the five Capitol cues were the issue, figure out how many times they were used over the course of the season, and replace those only.
post #815 of 1043
7/16/08 at 6:07pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

And how many lawyers does it take to recognize music cues?

How many current CBS/Paramount employees do you think could recognize Capitol music cues? Some of us here could, but not ALL of us here.

Harry

BTW: I'm just playing "Devil's Advocate" here and trying to look at things from their side. I still think the whole thing stinks and get a sinking feeling everytime I glance over at the DVD set and realize what's on it (or not on it!).
post #816 of 1043
7/16/08 at 6:50pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

This had nothing to do with legal people not recognizing music cues. The problem is, they had no WILL to even try. I'm not the smartest guy in the world, but if there's something I don't know that's crucial to my job, I'm smart enough to either go find out or track someone down who does know. The problem with CBS/Paramount Home Entertainment is their lack of will to take the time to enlighten themselves before they make easy snips and rescore music. It's a reflex they've developed. A habit. Half the songs they cut from GOMER PYLE were unnecessary. They snipped everything.

They don't care when it comes to going the extra mile.
post #817 of 1043
7/16/08 at 11:08pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry-N
And how many lawyers does it take to recognize music cues?

How many current CBS/Paramount employees do you think could recognize Capitol music cues? Some of us here could, but not ALL of us here.

Harry

BTW: I'm just playing "Devil's Advocate" here and trying to look at things from their side. I still think the whole thing stinks and get a sinking feeling everytime I glance over at the DVD set and realize what's on it (or not on it!).

If they'd wanted to, they could simply have asked one of the several experts on TV music - the fellow who did the article in Variety for one - he's written books about TV film music and knows all about the library cues.
post #818 of 1043
7/17/08 at 8:51am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
If they'd wanted to, they could simply have asked one of the several experts on TV music - the fellow who did the article in Variety for one - he's written books about TV film music and knows all about the library cues.

Who was that, BTW? Off hand I can think of at least two highly knowledgable people in the field: Randall D. Larson and Jon Burlingame. Even if they didn't have answers at their fingertips, they almost certainly would know how and where to look.

Heck, John Elizalde (music supervisor for "Fugitive", "Rawhide", etc.) is still with us, why didn't Paramount bother to check with him?
post #819 of 1043
7/17/08 at 9:18am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_ks
Who was that, BTW? Off hand I can think of at least two highly knowledgable people in the field: Randall D. Larson and Jon Burlingame. Even if they didn't have answers at their fingertips, they almost certainly would know how and where to look.

Heck, John Elizalde (music supervisor for "Fugitive", "Rawhide", etc.) is still with us, why didn't Paramount bother to check with him?

The Variety article was by Jon Burlingame.
post #820 of 1043
7/17/08 at 11:35am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

One of the reasons I asked the question about identifying cues is that I recently sat down with the new DVD of "Man In A Chariot" and synched it up with the audio from the VHS of that episode from NuVentures.

Now I hadn't really seen this episode in a long time, but what I noticed was that even the original version on the tape had way different music than just the typical Rugolo cues. In fact, through the teaser and Act I, I only heard the familiar Rugolo cues at the start and end of the act. All of the other music was unfamiliar to me.

I don't know if Elizalde or whoever put the music on this episode originally was conscious of the fact that it was the first episode of a new season and perhaps used some newly available cues from elsewhere, but the episode sounded different to me than a typical Fuge episode.

I pointed out earlier in this thread the discrepancy on the way the show opens. As the teaser ends in the VHS version, the picture fades to black as we hear the drumroll of the theme beginning. The picture switches to the closing freeze-frame of Kimble the trainyard (like most end credits) with the first-season device of the show title (THE FUGITIVE) starting out as a centered horizontal line and expanding upward and downward until the white-bordered black lettering is visible.

The opening from then on looks the same as the one on the DVD. The DVD opens with the diagonal "pixelling" device happening over the final frame of the teaser as we hear the drum roll. So there's some altering of the opening titles in this set as wekk, at least on this one episode, which may have originally been a transitional episode to the new-style opening.

In my synching up of the VHS with the DVD, everything stayed in sync pretty well through the credits and Act I. The beginning of Act II was slightly off, but a quick pause of one or the other brought it back into sync. That tells me that the NuVentures tape of this episode was transferred at the correct speed at least.

Now if I only had the software and means to capture the correct sound and good video together, I'd do it. But I'm not that sophistocated, I guess.

Harry
post #821 of 1043
7/17/08 at 12:41pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Harry I am working on the episodes as we speak. My reconstruction project has been delayed by "real" work but it is in the pipeline.

Is the running time on that episode the same as the DVD? Some Nu Ventures are around 46:30 while most of the DVDs are around 51:20.
post #822 of 1043
7/17/08 at 12:46pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry-N
And how many lawyers does it take to recognize music cues?

Um, 25. 24 to say "throw it all out" and one slightly tone deaf guy who says, "why don't we look it up?" The 24 ignore him, of course.

Sorry, couldn't resist.
post #823 of 1043
7/17/08 at 1:24pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylvia*ST
Um, 25. 24 to say "throw it all out" and one slightly tone deaf guy who says, "why don't we look it up?" The 24 ignore him, of course.

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Thank you Sylvia. You got the fact that I was throwing out a "straight line" with my question and waiting for a punch line!

Harry
post #824 of 1043
7/17/08 at 5:26pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I am starting my reconstruction of MAN IN A CHARIOT, matching the original soundscore to the new transfer. As far as I can tell I have all the elements. I hope this one goes as smoothly as ESCAPE INTO BLACK. Theoretically it shouldn't take me as long, having gained experience with the first one.

Edit: I appear to also have a complete original sound source for WORLD'S END. These two episodes, once reconstructed, should make a nice DVD. My wife actually wants me to do WORLD'S END first, so I guess I will.
post #825 of 1043
7/20/08 at 2:38am
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I've developed a new technique I am excited about for the reconstruction of MAN IN A CHARIOT. I am fusing the old analog soundtrack with the newly restored one. For example, when Begley and Janssen talk on the train in Act One, I wait until Rugolo and Heyes are both potted down, then I simultaneously pot the new soundtrack up and my analog source down. It's making for a nice mix and noticeably reducing noise in scenes with dialogue and local only. I don't know why I didn't think about it when doing ESCAPE INTO BLACK. I guess I had my hands full keeping sync with the missing frames in my analog.

These episodes are coming out so nicely that I am going to add some special features to the discs. I am going to include the Morse introductions from the Nu Ventures series before each reconstructed episode, with a brief graphic over Morse explaining the source. I also have the Janssen teaser for season two after HOME IS THE HUNTED from Nu Ventures. I may even include the interview with Janssen, the link for which someone posted here.

If my source for CRY UNCLE pans out, then I'll have two solid lossless DVD 5's, with MAN IN A CHARIOT and WORLD'S END on one, and ESCAPE INTO BLACK and CRY UNCLE on the other. I would have preferred to do NEMESIS instead of CRY UNCLE, but my source for NEMESIS is time compressed. I am talking to a friend about digitally stretching it--we'll see.
post #826 of 1043
7/20/08 at 9:03pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabimero
I've developed a new technique I am excited about for the reconstruction of MAN IN A CHARIOT. I am fusing the old analog soundtrack with the newly restored one. For example, when Begley and Janssen talk on the train in Act One, I wait until Rugolo and Heyes are both potted down, then I simultaneously pot the new soundtrack up and my analog source down. It's making for a nice mix and noticeably reducing noise in scenes with dialogue and local only. I don't know why I didn't think about it when doing ESCAPE INTO BLACK. I guess I had my hands full keeping sync with the missing frames in my analog.

These episodes are coming out so nicely that I am going to add some special features to the discs. I am going to include the Morse introductions from the Nu Ventures series before each reconstructed episode, with a brief graphic over Morse explaining the source. I also have the Janssen teaser for season two after HOME IS THE HUNTED from Nu Ventures. I may even include the interview with Janssen, the link for which someone posted here.

If my source for CRY UNCLE pans out, then I'll have two solid lossless DVD 5's, with MAN IN A CHARIOT and WORLD'S END on one, and ESCAPE INTO BLACK and CRY UNCLE on the other. I would have preferred to do NEMESIS instead of CRY UNCLE, but my source for NEMESIS is time compressed. I am talking to a friend about digitally stretching it--we'll see.

You,My Friend,have to be the MOST ARDENT FAN of the series to go through all this trouble
post #827 of 1043
7/21/08 at 12:35am
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Yes, you've got me pegged--I am a true "Fugitive Fanatic" (not just a self-proclaimed one), but I must say for the record how gratified I am to receive all the PMs and e-mails from people showing their support (I've received thirty just from my last post). I wish CBS/Paramount understood how much this show in its original form means to so many people, how heartbroken the hardcore fans are, not only because of the changes, but because they (and I) believe CBS/Paramount did not fully explore either the legal realities of the situation or the possible better solutions to five or six clearances they believed were a problem. The property may be theirs to alter as they wish, but by duping the fans, then giving them hard-to-swallow logic, they're sending a message.

The message: First, they don't really care to take the time to try and get it right or explain plausibly why they couldn't. Second, if I want these episodes in their original form, it looks like I'm damn well going to have to reconstruct them. I really hope the company proves me wrong and makes all this effort wasted on my part. What is so heartbreaking, and frustrating, is that it didn't have to be this way. Maybe they could've reorchestrated Rugolo to plug the holes, or plugged them with the Rugolo they had--and that's only one of several much better solutions. I don't think anyone believes they had to take the radical step they did, whatever the clearance issue may or may not have been.

Anyway, I'm debating whether to continue with my new technique of fusing the sources; I'm questioning whether the hiss dropping in and out as the music comes and goes is more distracting than simply letting the ear acclimate to the hiss all the way through.

Until I put it on my Bose I don't think I'll know for sure.
post #828 of 1043
7/21/08 at 3:43am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabimero
...they don't really care to take the time to try and get it right or explain plausibly why they couldn't.

That's the whole situation in a nutshell. Sad but true. Anything they say will only prove that they screwed up, so they say nothing beyond their vague press release. And the longer they wait without saying or doing anything, the worse they look.
post #829 of 1043
7/21/08 at 12:13pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabimero
I am talking to a friend about digitally stretching it--we'll see.

That's eazy - you need sotfware to slow down the speeded up audio and ajust the pitch.

All you need to to to get it right is match the dialog on both prints till they are identical in pitch and time.

But I digress
post #830 of 1043
7/21/08 at 11:25pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

The studios lawyers kind of remind me of when I watched an episode off the Howard Stern channel in which someone was wearing a Superman T-shirt and the channel blurred it out because they were afraid of being sued by Time Warner. The studio lawyers have way to much free time on their hands and basically seem to be running the studio. If they were going to be sued they would have been hit with a lawsuit over Season 1. I'm sure they now have a feeling of real self-importance and power knowing that they have ruined a whole series.
post #831 of 1043
7/22/08 at 12:06am
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

DeWilson, yes, that's what I meant by stretching, but the software I tried to use left artifacts--I'm hoping a friend has some better software. But heck, if it's that easy, I'm more than willing to send you my two sources in WAV on compact discs. Over 51 minutes there is a 5 minute differential. Just let me know. So far nothing about this project has been easy. Sure, it's easy to do it--but to do it to professional standards, so it looks and sounds good on big-time systems, is a tougher thing, at least for me.

Finished MAN IN A CHARIOT and sound wise it is 70% identical to the CBS/Paramount remastered version--the only hiss you hear is when I bring up Rugolo. It was worth the extra time to blend.

I'm going to go ahead and put MAN IN A CHARIOT and ESCAPE INTO BLACK on one DVD-5--with the Morse Intros for each episode it will come to just over 4GB by the time I add my art and menu.
post #832 of 1043
7/22/08 at 12:11pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by chas speed
I'm sure they now have a feeling of real self-importance and power knowing that they have ruined a whole series.

Chas, casting them as destroyers of art in a public forum probably isn't the best approach. A much more productive approach would be to write letters (physical letters, not emails) and, without being rude or caustic, state your objections to the music replacement. This goes for all of us: we shouldn't be stopping at just one or two letters. How many? How often? I dunno.... every day? I don't mind dropping a stamp every day on this issue. But my point --- only articulate and noncombative sentiments will get us anywhere. Diplomacy, I think, is our best chance, both to save further sets from this fate and, better still, to bring about the restoration of the original music (wherever possible) to the affected episodes.

Here are the addresses (culled from earlier in the thread):

Mr. John Nogawski
President, CBS Television Distribution
2401 Colorado Ave, Ste 110
Santa Monica CA 90404

and:

Mr. Ken Ross
Executive VP, CBS Home Entertainment
1700 Broadway 33rd Floor
New York, NY 10019

and:

President
Paramount Home Entertainment
5555 Melrose Ave.
Hollywood, CA 90038

Keep writing!
post #833 of 1043
7/22/08 at 12:41pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by chas speed
I'm sure they now have a feeling of real self-importance and power knowing that they have ruined a whole series.

First, they haven't "ruined" anything. The affected episodes remain extremely polished, well-acted character-driven dramas. Yes, the background music is different. But you know what? it's actually not as terrible as I thought it would be. It's mixed a bit loud in spots, but the music itself is actually a pretty convincing knockoff of late 50's-early 60's crime/drama television scoring. It's generally mood-appropriate, and clearly there was at least some attempt to mimic the original cues. But most importantly, the stories are still there, the characters are still there, and quite honestly I'm enjoying the season 2 episodes (so far) more than those from season 1 (I'm on "The Cage" right now).

HOWEVER....

I in no way condone the music replacement, nor do I support the decision to alter the end credits. The only way I've been able to view the affected episodes is via Netflix. I most certainly won't hand over my hard-earned money for the set as it currently exists. And I will continue to fire off regular protest letters. At the same time, I can't honestly say I'd recommend AGAINST viewing these episodes. They're just too good, music replacement notwithstanding. But I'd strongly discourage anyone from buying them.

I should also state that I'm one of the "music is 50% of the experience" guys mentioned early in this thread. I really am. I've been collecting film and TV music for years. I'm just as appalled as the rest of you, even after weeks of the news sinking in. Just thought I'd sneak that in before I get totally flamed....
post #834 of 1043
7/22/08 at 1:17pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I haven't heard anyone say Heyes did a bad job, but in remixing these shows I've been able to compare Rugolo in one ear and Heyes in the other, and when you hear them side by side sometimes the new score is almost comical--too loud and too many heavy-handed horns in my opinion. And the notion that Heyes used Rugolo as a temp track isn't totally true...Heyes scored scenes that didn't have any music before. His cues typically run several seconds longer than Rugolo. Still, some attempt was made to match the style and it's not Heyes's fault some "genius" decided to redo the underscore when it wasn't necessary.

But I wouldn't care if they put Mozart in the episodes. It doesn't belong there and it wasn't necessary to do it.
post #835 of 1043
7/22/08 at 2:21pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
First, they haven't "ruined" anything. The affected episodes remain extremely polished, well-acted character-driven dramas. Yes, the background music is different. But you know what? it's actually not as terrible as I thought it would be.

I agree with you to a point, only because I'm a newbie where "The Fugitive" is concerned so the Rugolo/CBS tracks have not been entrenched in my mind over the years like Steiner and "Star Trek" or Frontiere and "Outer Limits". However, the extremely high level of vitriol we are witness to on Amazon tells me that this situation is a bit analogous to say Bernard Herrmann fans potentially being up in arms over a score substitution to "7th Voyage of Sinbad" or "Vertigo" and the casual fan of 50s era mystery and sci-fi/fantasy films thinking "well, at least it appears to have been scored in a manner that captures the flavor of the times". Let's face it, Craig die hard fans of these films would have a coronary with this.
post #836 of 1043
7/22/08 at 2:50pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Diplomacy with lawyers? I don't think so. Lawyers get paid to raise flags and unfortunately in this day and age everyone bows to them, even when it's totally unnecessary. In older times the lawyers may have raised a flag, but no one bowed to it unless it was completely justified, which in this case it clearly isn't - no one was willing to do the work to find out that Capitol owned the handful of cues - they could also have just replaced the instances of those cues. The lawyers made trouble, they made suggestions on how to completely avoid any perceived problems down the road, and unfortunately the studio did it. They didn't have to, but they did. As everyone has pointed out over and over again, Season One remains on the shelves and for sale. If they're not getting sued or having problems with that set (which they clearly aren't), wouldn't you think that would say something to someone.

But - diplomacy will change nothing. Only not purchasing the set and making one's displeasure known will have any effect. If the powers that be perceive that there are sales to be had for future seasons but only with the correct music, then money will win the day. They thought they could get away with this - a sort of testing the waters - but it didn't work. Now they know - and they have to make the decision whether to release subsequent seasons with replaced music to few sales or to do the right thing and release them the way they were.
post #837 of 1043
7/22/08 at 3:14pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
In older times the lawyers may have raised a flag, but no one bowed to it unless it was completely justified...
Shakespeare wrote "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers" more than 500 years ago so I don't know if lawyers are a new 'problem'.
post #838 of 1043
7/22/08 at 4:21pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabimero
I haven't heard anyone say Heyes did a bad job

Heyes did a bad job.
post #839 of 1043
7/22/08 at 4:49pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
But - diplomacy will change nothing. Only not purchasing the set and making one's displeasure known will have any effect.

But we're not writing to the lawyers. We're writing to corporate presidents, division heads, etc., and it seems logical that being diplomatic and nonconfrontational will give our voices a better shot at being heard. Honestly, my biggest concern (even bigger than the music replacement) is that they'll simply say "screw it" and not release any more sets due to all the negativity (some of it ridiculous) that's risen over this issue. Then what have we gained?

I fired off a new round of letters today. Keep writing!
post #840 of 1043
7/22/08 at 4:53pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael_ks
I agree with you to a point, only because I'm a newbie where "The Fugitive" is concerned so the Rugolo/CBS tracks have not been entrenched in my mind over the years like Steiner and "Star Trek" or Frontiere and "Outer Limits". However, the extremely high level of vitriol we are witness to on Amazon tells me that this situation is a bit analogous to say Bernard Herrmann fans potentially being up in arms over a score substitution to "7th Voyage of Sinbad" or "Vertigo" and the casual fan of 50s era mystery and sci-fi/fantasy films thinking "well, at least it appears to have been scored in a manner that captures the flavor of the times". Let's face it, Craig die hard fans of these films would have a coronary with this.

I totally hear ya. I guess the difference here is that those films are already available, unmolested on DVD (and likely Blu-ray shortly), so we've lost nothing by boycotting those (hypothetical) releases. The Fugitive, by contrast, is virtually unavailable otherwise, so what's the option for your die-hard fan? Just not watch them at all, and probably NEVER see them? The series sure as hell isn't being broadcast on any channel I have.

My point? I totally get the vitriol. I do.
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