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The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews - Page 25  

post #721 of 1043
7/2/08 at 2:46am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLKINSER
What about when NU Ventures released the show in the 1990's on VHS. They were all intact: footage and musical score. Why didn't NU Ventures, who was a smaller company than Paramount, have the same trouble? I still say Paramount didn't want to take the time to find out what was original and what was not and opted to put in this new music figuring no one would ever know. I can't buy the legal excuses they are using. Many of the NU Ventures releases were from the Season 2 Vol. 1 release. Nu Ventures even had Barry Moorse do introductions to the show. You can tell me a small company can go to this expense and figure out all of the legal red tape and a large company such as Paramount can't? How about won't? I still think this was a cheaper way out instead of paying the originators the money they wanted for the original score and Paramount opted for the cheaper way out. More money for them seeing how well Season One Vol. 1 and 2 sold. Either that or they were just to lazy to take their time and find out what was original to the show and what was not and took the lazy way out. They did the same thing to the Andy Griffith show. The music is still intact on Andy, but if you watch the credits, most of these were the syndicated time speed versions that had parts missing. Sure is strange that TV Land shows episodes with footage not on the DVD release. Paramount started their TV on DVD release on the right foot but dropped the ball. Unless they redo the Season Two Vol. 1, and also redo the cut scene in Ballad for a Dead Ghost, I will never buy another Paramount DVD period.

Ether that or NU Ventures simply assumed that they had all the rights to the music when they got the license to release the show and never bothered to check music rights.

Doug
post #722 of 1043
7/2/08 at 6:14am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Ether that or NU Ventures simply assumed that they had all the rights to the music when they got the license to release the show and never bothered to check music rights.

Doug

Also, wasn't it a few years later (say, around 1994-96) when the whole music rights/royalties thing really changed and we started having problems? I know it wasn't until the mid-'90s that TV stations started having problems clearing shows with a lot of popular music (like The Gong Show). Maybe the NuVentures stuff came up before they had to pay so much attention to background music.
post #723 of 1043
7/2/08 at 1:05pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

The bottom line: They own the Rugolo music used for the show - it was a work for hire and whoever inherited the show inherited the music. They don't own approximately five library cues from the Capitol library - the math is simple. Replace the five cues. But I think when lawyers decide to dig their heels in, that's the end of it. They're paid by the studios to do this sort of thing, and it's totally out of control and ridiculous now, not only in the film business but everywhere. I was told a story once by a friend of someone who does special features for studios - they'd shot an interview with someone - in the background was a painting of the someone. The someone had had the painting commissioned and owned it outright. The lawyers wanted to fuzz the image or remove all those shots unless they had a release from the artist. The artist was long dead. They were told time and again that the someone owned the painting and would give them a release. That wasn't good enough.
post #724 of 1043
7/2/08 at 2:28pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I'm an ex-radio guy, and now do public affairs, and Paramount had handled this wretchedly from the beginning. It's always best to get out front of the story with as much information as you can. The Tylenol tampering case is the classic example of how to do this right. They came out smelling like a rose.

CBS/Paramount, however, has gotten itself the worst of all worlds. First, they didn't get out front with the announcement that all the score was changed, with the reason why. Second, they have no notice on the packaging that the score was replaced. Third, they put out a statement that is absurd on the face of it, because there was not much time between release of season 1, vol. 2 and season 2, vol. 1.

We are asked to believe the following happened in just over three months: (1) Somewhere in due diligence, the legal staff discovered some music cues weren't necessarily CBS/Paramount's to use; (2) the legal staff then conducted a search to find out who had the rights to the music; (3) the legal staff couldn't find the rights holders, or had unsuccessful negotiations; (4) the decision was made to not use that music, and then another decision was made to replace ALL the music so we'd have a "seamless, consistent experience" (let's give them that one.); (5) a search for the best person to write the new music resulted in the choice of Mark Heyes (I'm assuming he didn't happen to be standing outside the door when the music-replacement decision was made); (6) Heyes watched all 15-30 shows, and spotted music cues throughout with timings; (7) Heyes wrote all that music; (8) Heyes went into a recording studio and laid down all the tracks -- and since I believe he has the normal amount of professional pride, there were multiple takes before he was happy with the result; (9) the music was then edited and mixed into the other elements; and (10) DVD's were pressed, packaged and shipped to stores nationwide.

That's asking a lot for just over three months. The point is that whatever problem was known, was known before, maybe well before, volume 2 of season 1 came out.

Now suppose CBS/Paramount had put out a statement with the actual reason. To throw in some humor, something like: "CBS/Paramount has discovered that the music from the beginning of Season Two onward, except for the opening and closing titles, is now controlled by Mr. Sam Schmidlap, who says his father would beat him with a two-by-four every week during the original run of "The Fugitive." Mr. Schmidlap claims to suffer severe emotional harm whenever he hears this music, and so does not want it played anywhere in the world in any context as long as he holds the rights. Accordingly, CBS/Paramount has commissioned a new musical score, which will be used starting with the first volume of Season Two."

Yes, it's absurd, but you get the point. Would anyone be happy? Not many. Would people be throwing verbal Molotov cocktails at CBS/Paramount today? Again, not many.

And when the set came out, the packaging would plainly state that the score had been replaced. CBS/Paramount should have followed their own example from Season Two of "Hawaii Five-O": one episode was not included, and the packaging plainly stated it. No one could claim to be misled -- unhappy, yes; misled, no.

My advice to CBS/Paramount is simply this: End all the speculation. Say why it happened, and what you're going to do -- even if that "what" is cancelling all future issues.

Honesty is the best policy. We -- most of us, anyway -- are big boys and girls.

We can take it.
post #725 of 1043
7/2/08 at 2:34pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
The bottom line: They own the Rugolo music used for the show - it was a work for hire and whoever inherited the show inherited the music. They don't own approximately five library cues from the Capitol library - the math is simple. Replace the five cues. But I think when lawyers decide to dig their heels in, that's the end of it. They're paid by the studios to do this sort of thing, and it's totally out of control and ridiculous now, not only in the film business but everywhere. I was told a story once by a friend of someone who does special features for studios - they'd shot an interview with someone - in the background was a painting of the someone. The someone had had the painting commissioned and owned it outright. The lawyers wanted to fuzz the image or remove all those shots unless they had a release from the artist. The artist was long dead. They were told time and again that the someone owned the painting and would give them a release. That wasn't good enough.

Again we assume it is only 5 tracks, but do we know that for sure? And are we sure that there isn't also a problem with Rugolo?


Doug
post #726 of 1043
7/2/08 at 2:36pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Thompson
We -- most of us, anyway -- are big boys and girls.

We can take it.

No, we can't! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!


Sorry...couldn't resist.
post #727 of 1043
7/2/08 at 2:39pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Of course, there are exceptions!
post #728 of 1043
7/2/08 at 3:36pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
And are we sure that there isn't also a problem with Rugolo?


Doug

To everyone's best knowledge, the Rugolo score is owned by the studio as work for hire.
post #729 of 1043
7/2/08 at 3:43pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I personally think that Sam Schmidlap needs to get over it...



Harry
post #730 of 1043
7/2/08 at 4:59pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Saw all the 15 episodes in the last two weeks. Wonderful produced episodes, great cast = Quinn Martin.

And, OF COURSE, I´m most disappointed about the re-score. For everyone who has a little bit knowledge about music, this is a total desaster.
The mix of computerized synthesized music large orchestral score sounds terrible.

That´s my small opinion after seeing all the 15 episodes very compact and intensive.

Best wishes.
post #731 of 1043
7/2/08 at 6:36pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Whatever problem was known, was known before, maybe well before, volume 2 of season 1 came out.

Oh, without doubt.

Season 1, Volume 2 was announced by CBS/Paramount on February 19, 2008, seven days before S1, V2 ever streeted.

So, this lame excuse given by CBS on June 17th is just completely silly (IMO): "We didn’t want to disappoint fans by significantly delaying the release of the second season so we chose to replace the music."

The Fugitive DVD news: Announcement for The Fugitive - Season 2, Volume 1 | TVShowsOnDVD.com

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/3391343-post39.html
post #732 of 1043
7/2/08 at 8:49pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I have actually written Paramount about my dissapointment. Haven't heard anything yet, but I haven't received it back as a "return to sender" as they did one other time I wrote them. Has anyone else here written them?
post #733 of 1043
7/2/08 at 9:07pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

This kind of reminds me of when a low level accountant advised NBC that they could save some money in storage costs by destroying all the old Tonight shows.
post #734 of 1043
7/2/08 at 9:37pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I have written and mailed six letters and bought and returned eight bastardized sets.
post #735 of 1043
7/2/08 at 10:56pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Honestly the best thing to do would be to return the season 2 sets to the store for a refund. That would send the clearest message to CBS/Paramount.

Doug
post #736 of 1043
7/2/08 at 11:17pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Again we assume it is only 5 tracks, but do we know that for sure? And are we sure that there isn't also a problem with Rugolo?


Doug

Doug, I'm simply not going to respond to your posts anymore. You don't want to actually hear what many on this board are saying and you just keep posting the same disbelieving thing over and over again. There is no problem with Rugolo as I and others have patiently and plainly explained to you on more than one occasion. Composers performed work for hire - they were paid and retained no rights in their music whatsoever, other than their writer's share of the publishing, the publishing not being controlled by them, but by the studio who made the show (and/or the producers who produced it). There is no speculation there - it's the way it's been done forever. Several people who have knowledge of this, including the man who wrote the article for Variety, have stated it's a handful of cues from the Capitol library that are the problem, and the number five has been consistently mentioned. Those five cues may have been used multiple times, however.
post #737 of 1043
7/2/08 at 11:28pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I contend they would have been fine using those five cues.
post #738 of 1043
7/3/08 at 6:09am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by chas speed
This kind of reminds me of when a low level accountant advised NBC that they could save some money in storage costs by destroying all the old Tonight shows.

To be fair, The Tonight Show wasn't singled out for erasure, and it wasn't just "some bean counter at NBC". The destruction of old programming, especially material where rerun value seemed limited, was common practice at TV networks in the US and all over the world, in the 1960s and 70s. All the major networks are guilty of destroying portions of their archive. ABC is even guilty of destroying now only their own material, but material from another network (they dumped most of Dumont's stuff in the East River, as I recall).

The reasons? One, storage space. Another big reason was the then-expensive 2" videotapes that these shows were recorded on. Game shows, talk shows, soaps, etc. were all 1). produced on tape and 2). seen as a "broadcast one time only" event. They saw no reason to archive complete runs of shows they didn't expect to ever run again, and rather than pay to store all those massive tapes, they would erase them (not destroy) and save money two ways: less storage costs, plus they would reuse those 2" tapes for other programming, saving them from having to buy that many more 2" quads. They'd save a few "examples" of shows to use for clips, etc., but on the whole, they recycled the tapes. This is why no master videotapes survive of 1960s Doctor Who, for example. If it weren't for that show's success in worldwide TV sales (i.e. back-up film prints being made to distribute worldwide), then there would be far more episodes of that show missing than there is now.

You or I don't have to like this policy, but I can understand their viewpoint from a 1960s perspective: there were no rerun cable channels, no home video, no real outlet for this stuff. Heck, the first-ever Super Bowl was aired on two networks, and neither saw any reason to preserve it!
post #739 of 1043
7/3/08 at 6:49am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

To buttress the belief that Rugolo's music belongs to CBS --

When Silva Screen Records issued its soundtrack from "The Fugitive" (Silva SSD-1106) on CD, it was actual tracks from the episodes, not re-recordings. In addition to Silva Screen's copyright notice, it also contained a performance copyright (that's the "P" in a circle) for Worldvision Enterprises, which at the time owned the rights to "The Fugitive". As Worldvision's rights are now owned by CBS/Paramount, they include the Rugolo tracks.

Another example: Elmer Bernstein was not happy when his "Magnificent Seven" theme was licensed for cigarette commercials (remember the Marlboro Man?), but he had no say in the matter. He was paid his music royalties, but the movie company had the right to license the music for other purposes. It was work for hire.
post #740 of 1043
7/3/08 at 10:25am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Another example: Elmer Bernstein was not happy when his "Magnificent Seven" theme was licensed for cigarette commercials (remember the Marlboro Man?), but he had no say in the matter. He was paid his music royalties, but the movie company had the right to license the music for other purposes. It was work for hire.

In this particular example, Phillip Morris just went ahead and purchased the rights to film's soundtrack.
post #741 of 1043
7/3/08 at 12:22pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Not to hijack this thread, but back to Carson. Yes, it is a huge shame that these were destroyed. At the same time, the existing tapes have never really been exploited save for the same clips that are recycled over and over by the Carson people. There's now an entire generation that has no real memories of watching the Carson Tonight show and who probably have no idea of who these guests were that showed up so often (Buddy Hackett, Buddy Rich, and dare I say Bob Hope as examples).

As it stands today the tapes exist in some underground mine as mere historical artifacts that the public will never get to see.

So the bottom line is that while it is sad the first dozen or so Carson years are missing, very few would ever see them anyway.
post #742 of 1043
7/3/08 at 4:12pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

The Carson estate has donated most, if not all, of the existing tapes to the Museum of TV & Radio, now the Paley Center for Media, in NY/LA. Anybody can go there and watch any of the episodes from 1973-1991. Apparently, they only saved shows hosted by Carson though; ones with guest hosts are lost to time.
post #743 of 1043
7/3/08 at 7:09pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Another example: Elmer Bernstein was not happy when his "Magnificent Seven" theme was licensed for cigarette commercials (remember the Marlboro Man?)

Was Bernstein responsible for that great Marlboro theme?

I'll be French-dipped! I had no idea Elmer wrote that fabulous theme. But it seems fitting for Bernstein, who wrote lots of great music scores in his day (he passed away in August 2004).



One of my favorite Elmer Bernstein scores is the one he did for the rarely-seen 1964 JFK film "Four Days In November", which just last month received its first-ever DVD release (via "EarthStation1.com", although I can't quite figure out how EarthStation got ahold of the rights to it in order to market the DVD release; does anyone happen to know if that film has somehow fallen into the public domain, perhaps? Because I'm curious about that).

Some of Bernstein's "Four Days" music also was used in another little-seen JFK film -- "The Making Of The President 1960", narrated by Martin Gabel.

Elmer Bernstein
post #744 of 1043
7/3/08 at 10:49pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyMcKinney
To be fair, The Tonight Show wasn't singled out for erasure, and it wasn't just "some bean counter at NBC". The destruction of old programming, especially material where rerun value seemed limited, was common practice at TV networks in the US and all over the world, in the 1960s and 70s. All the major networks are guilty of destroying portions of their archive. ABC is even guilty of destroying now only their own material, but material from another network (they dumped most of Dumont's stuff in the East River, as I recall).

The reasons? One, storage space. Another big reason was the then-expensive 2" videotapes that these shows were recorded on. Game shows, talk shows, soaps, etc. were all 1). produced on tape and 2). seen as a "broadcast one time only" event. They saw no reason to archive complete runs of shows they didn't expect to ever run again, and rather than pay to store all those massive tapes, they would erase them (not destroy) and save money two ways: less storage costs, plus they would reuse those 2" tapes for other programming, saving them from having to buy that many more 2" quads. They'd save a few "examples" of shows to use for clips, etc., but on the whole, they recycled the tapes. This is why no master videotapes survive of 1960s Doctor Who, for example. If it weren't for that show's success in worldwide TV sales (i.e. back-up film prints being made to distribute worldwide), then there would be far more episodes of that show missing than there is now.

You or I don't have to like this policy, but I can understand their viewpoint from a 1960s perspective: there were no rerun cable channels, no home video, no real outlet for this stuff. Heck, the first-ever Super Bowl was aired on two networks, and neither saw any reason to preserve it!
To be fair the "low level accountant" was a direct quote froma NBC press release on a special they were doing on the history of their late night programs. They said it would be discussed and as far as I could tell NBC had a change of heart and never included it or discussed it again. The destruction of our TV history by hacks really can not be excused and Carson was never informed of their decision until after his shows were destroyed.
post #745 of 1043
7/3/08 at 10:54pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve...O
Not to hijack this thread, but back to Carson. Yes, it is a huge shame that these were destroyed. At the same time, the existing tapes have never really been exploited save for the same clips that are recycled over and over by the Carson people. There's now an entire generation that has no real memories of watching the Carson Tonight show and who probably have no idea of who these guests were that showed up so often (Buddy Hackett, Buddy Rich, and dare I say Bob Hope as examples).

As it stands today the tapes exist in some underground mine as mere historical artifacts that the public will never get to see.

So the bottom line is that while it is sad the first dozen or so Carson years are missing, very few would ever see them anyway.
I agree with you completely. What the Carson estate has done with the surviving episodes is a joke. Even when Carson was alive they basically just rereleased the same junk over and over again.
post #746 of 1043
7/3/08 at 10:59pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdee28
The Carson estate has donated most, if not all, of the existing tapes to the Museum of TV & Radio, now the Paley Center for Media, in NY/LA. Anybody can go there and watch any of the episodes from 1973-1991. Apparently, they only saved shows hosted by Carson though; ones with guest hosts are lost to time.
You mean all I have to do is travel a few thousand miles to watch an episode of the Tonight show. That's great. There are plenty of 60's episodes with guest hosts like Woody Allen and Jerry Lewis that survived and have been screened in N.Y. or L.A.
post #747 of 1043
7/3/08 at 11:36pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
Doug, I'm simply not going to respond to your posts anymore. You don't want to actually hear what many on this board are saying and you just keep posting the same disbelieving thing over and over again. There is no problem with Rugolo as I and others have patiently and plainly explained to you on more than one occasion. Composers performed work for hire - they were paid and retained no rights in their music whatsoever, other than their writer's share of the publishing, the publishing not being controlled by them, but by the studio who made the show (and/or the producers who produced it). There is no speculation there - it's the way it's been done forever. Several people who have knowledge of this, including the man who wrote the article for Variety, have stated it's a handful of cues from the Capitol library that are the problem, and the number five has been consistently mentioned. Those five cues may have been used multiple times, however.


Billy,

The same could be said of you.

Frankly you have no idea if there is a problem with Rugolo's music or not. You are just guessing as am I. There could be contract problem with the second season. As was stated, he only recorded music cues at the start of season 1. There could be problems with those contracts extending into season two. It all depends on how the contracts were written and what was "legal" according to Union rules at the time. There is no such thing as "they way its been done forever" there is only the contract at hand.

As any lawyer will tell you, saying you have the rights to something, and proving it are two very different things.

Being in Variety doesn't make it true. The guy who wrote the article for for Variety MAY be correct and he may not. I can't tell you how many times I have been on the inside on a particular issue and seen newspaper articles about it that are just dead wrong.

The only one who know for sure is CBS/Paramount and they are not talking. It's no one's business but theirs. Yes I believe they could handle this better by explaining the issues outright, but they have chosen not too and that is their right.

Doug
post #748 of 1043
7/4/08 at 4:06am
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I guess all we're left with is source credibility. And why not? An argument could be made for believing a CBS spokesperson over a reporter from Variety. Having said that, an argument could be made for believing a Variety reporter over, say, me for example, especially if I constantly repeated myself in posts, or incessantly tried to "one-up" other posters or felt compelled to continually clarify their posts, or if I came into a thread having never seen the show or the modifications made to it and presumed to discuss them with authority.

The great thing about a message board is that, over time, the sum of a person's posts eventually speaks for itself.
post #749 of 1043
7/4/08 at 2:34pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

CBS has started to upload some classic TV shows to their website, including Perry Mason, Hawaii Five-O, Star Trek.

Wouldn't it be nice if they started to upload The Fugitive? Would the second season would still have the music replacement?
post #750 of 1043
7/4/08 at 2:42pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

It follows that any distribution of season two volume one by CBS/Paramount will have the music replacements unless a "redo" is announced. While you still might be able to catch THE FUGITIVE in its pure form in syndication, don't count on purity from CBS/Paramount any time soon.
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