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The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews - Page 6  

post #151 of 1043
6/12/08 at 6:33am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

But what changed between season 1 and season 2?
post #152 of 1043
6/12/08 at 6:35am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Well, at least we got 1 of the seasons intact.
post #153 of 1043
6/12/08 at 6:42am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker Clack
... What if this suddenly made the disc set $150 instead of $30 or $40 how many do you think they would sell? And then the studios wouldn't release future sets because nobody bought them.

So they are in between a rock and a hard place. Put out the product at a price point that people are willing to pay with modifications or at a price point nobody would pay just because they have to recoup what they have had to pay out in royalities to do so.

We may not like it but this is what the studios are up against especially with everyone and his brother wanting a piece of the royality pie. And music rights to older TV shows and Movies have gone out of the roof in fees. Parker

Perhaps the studio could release a high-priced "Collector's Edition" in the future of the entire series with the original music intact. I'm sure there would be a market for it based on the passions we've caught only a glimpse of on this thread. When you see the prices "unofficial" sets have sold at on series, it's no stretch to think the fan base of The Fugitive would pay premiums for the right stuff. And casual fans can still buy the mass market versions with the altered music.
post #154 of 1043
6/12/08 at 6:43am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by buford2
But what changed between season 1 and season 2?

Someone woke up from a 40-year nap and saw gas has gone from .29/gal to $4.29/gal.

Seriously, that's the question we're all scratching our heads over.
Hopefully, the answer will be forthcoming.
post #155 of 1043
6/12/08 at 6:54am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein
I do know that Fox took forever to
release WKRP in Cincinnati because of royalty issues and
in the end I believe they ended up having to change a lot of the music.

At the risk of sharpening this to too fine a point, Ron, I'm not talking about popular songs like "I'll Remember April" needle-dropped in six Fugitive episodes or "I'll Never Smile Again" in five Fugitive episodes. I'll grant you those command big money for release rights. But even resuming royalties to Pete Rugolo or MGM, originally performed on a buy-out for $5,000, would not quadruple Season 2's list price.
post #156 of 1043
6/12/08 at 7:13am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatOz
With all due respect, even digging up Beethoven and paying him royalties with interest wouldn't hike the price of a 4-DVD set from $40 to $150. Let's be realistic.
Sometimes it's not a matter of money. It's a matter of getting someone with a clear right to grant the license. If there's a dispute as to who holds the rights, you can't get a "clean" license and you can't use the material without the risk of being sued by everyone claiming the rights.

I have no idea whether such a situation exists here, but it happens a lot more often than people realize. Best to wait and see what information Gord Lacey can elicit.

M.
post #157 of 1043
6/12/08 at 7:31am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gord Lacey
The problem is that studios retreat when they attacked by a group of fans, and then they're less likely to talk about ANYTHING related to the set in question, and are more likely to issue a vague statement.

With all due respect, Gord, it seems to me that the problem is that a company hid the fact that they altered their product. They deceived the very consumers that bought the first season of "The Fugitive" and who were ready to continue buying subsequent seasons of the show. What kind of business practice is that? And as far as them being more likely to issues a vague statement, they already made a vague statement on the DVD package when they said the soundtrack was restored. I agree that it's always best to state your case in a civilized fashion, but this whole problem was caused by Paramount.
post #158 of 1043
6/12/08 at 7:48am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
Sometimes it's not a matter of money.

Exactly my point. There's no need to speculate that a DVD release with nearly all the original music would even be possible now for The Fugitive, much less costing 4x or 5x the current MSRP.

Consumers get upset when their favorite movie's soundtrack has songs missing that were licensed ONLY for theatrical release. Example, "There Used To Be A Playground" was exorcised from the soundtrack CD of A LEAGUE OF THEIR OWN.
Granted, there was a disclaimer on the CD's back notes.

I think we all understand that if there was the possibility of having the original score in Season 2, it would be there...not reserved for some astronomically priced "Collector's Edition."

"The deluxe model Cadillac comes with -round- tires instead of -square- tires!"


When you think about it, why the heck are there at least -THREE- box sets of The Twilight Zone and we can't get even -ONE- original set of The Fugitive?
post #159 of 1043
6/12/08 at 7:54am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein
I would bet the farm that all of this has to do with licensing fees.
This is not the first time that a studio has been forced to change
background music due to exorbitant royalty fees. This happens
often with classic television since nobody had the foresight to see
that their shows would one day be rereleased on video so none of
these license agreements were ever put into contracts.

If this were Season One and it was handled this way, I could almost understand it. I know that music rights can be a tricky issue to resolve, but there are some facts here that are just too confounding to wrap my brain around:
  • This is Season Two we're talking about. Season Two was no different from Season One in regards to the music - and all of Rugolo's underscore cues were used and issued on Season One DVD sets.
  • Pete Rugolo composed the music for his cues based only on a script of the pilot. From that he got an understanding of what would be needed for the series and proceeded to compose and arrange a variety of styles using the main theme(s). John Elizalde and Ken Wilhoit handled the use of his cues within the series proper which were recorded in England by the London Studio Symphony Orchestra. According to the CD credits, the music is published by EMI Unart Catalog Inc (BMI). If any of this is some kind of no-no for DVD use, then how was it done for Season One? Is CBS/Paramount right now being sued for the use of the music in Season One?
  • Other music used in the show were cues from TWILIGHT ZONE and GUNSMOKE, and both should already be the property of CBS. These were also used in Season One and appear on the DVDs. OUTER LIMITS cues weren't used until the Fourth Season, from what I've gathered here, so that shouldn't be a factor.
I can't fault CBS/Paramount fully for their tiny verbiage on the back of the package. It does say the music has been changed. It just doesn't say how much, and that's perhaps a little misleading based on the prior season releases.

I really hope we can get an honest picture of what's going on here, and I'm encouraged that contacts are being made in that regard.

Harry
post #160 of 1043
6/12/08 at 8:06am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheGreatOz
Exactly my point.
No it's not, because you took my quote out of context.

My point is that there are any number of possible reasons for the music substitutions, and most of them are neither evil nor irrational. So it would be good idea to curb the rhetoric and not further poison the well for people who are trying to get some hard facts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John De Angelis
but this whole problem was caused by Paramount.
But that's not really the issue, is it? The issue is what to do to fix the problem (if it can be fixed at all). And a lot of this thread has been a textbook example of how to do everything wrong. I'm reminded of that great line from Detective Somserset in Se7en (from memory, so it may not be exact):

Quote:
It's impressive to see a grown man feeding off his emotions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry-N
Season Two was no different from Season One in regards to the music
But maybe the contractual and rights issues were different. Wouldn't be the first time. Let's wait for the answer to Gord's inquiry.

M.
post #161 of 1043
6/12/08 at 8:31am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywoodaholic
Perhaps the studio could release a high-priced "Collector's Edition" in the future of the entire series with the original music intact. I'm sure there would be a market for it based on the passions we've caught only a glimpse of on this thread. When you see the prices "unofficial" sets have sold at on series, it's no stretch to think the fan base of The Fugitive would pay premiums for the right stuff. And casual fans can still buy the mass market versions with the altered music.
Hollywood,

Assuming all things remain equal, I like this idea a lot. For my own part, I would pay $150 per season for TOS if a similar situation existed with that series. However, if The Fugitive is eventually released in its entirety intact (all music as aired), do you think that this might change your premise somewhat? In other words, if whatever is broken is fixed, then would there be a need for a Collector's Edition?* I'm just asking the question.

*I'm beginning to think that distributors (or whomever constitute TPTB in such cases), if they read what you've written here and had the power to act on it, might consider this to be a win-win (IMO). Perhaps they are already engaged in this, and I don't realize it.
post #162 of 1043
6/12/08 at 9:04am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
My point is that there are any number of possible reasons for the music substitutions, and most of them are neither evil nor irrational. So it would be good idea to curb the rhetoric...

I don't recall claiming the music substitution was the result of evilness or irrationality.

And I agree there's no need to get emotional over this fan-atic SNAFU.

If you're into quotes: "There are no problems; only solutions to problems"

...and for this situation, there are several.
post #163 of 1043
6/12/08 at 10:38am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockeghem
Hollywood,

Assuming all things remain equal, I like this idea a lot. For my own part, I would pay $150 per season for TOS if a similar situation existed with that series. However, if The Fugitive is eventually released in its entirety intact (all music as aired), do you think that this might change your premise somewhat? In other words, if whatever is broken is fixed, then would there be a need for a Collector's Edition?* I'm just asking the question.

*I'm beginning to think that distributors (or whomever constitute TPTB in such cases), if they read what you've written here and had the power to act on it, might consider this to be a win-win (IMO). Perhaps they are already engaged in this, and I don't realize it.

Ockeghem,

My post was assuming they're not going to turn the bus around on this thing and restore the original music anytime soon, which is obviously still the best solution for fans, of course.

I also wasn't consciously trying to give Paramount's marketing division any bright ideas ($$$$), but at least plant a seed that some option might exist or be available by the time the entire series is released.
post #164 of 1043
6/12/08 at 10:45am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywoodaholic
Ockeghem,

My post was assuming they're not going to turn the bus around on this thing and restore the original music anytime soon, which is obviously still the best solution for fans, of course.

I also wasn't consciously trying to give Paramount's marketing division any bright ideas ($$$$), but at least plant a seed that some option might exist or be available by the time the entire series is released.
Gotcha.

I think it's an excellent idea.

O/T:

I have to get on over to that site and order my copy of The Outer Limits music CDs.
post #165 of 1043
6/12/08 at 10:52am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ockeghem
I have to get on over to that site and order my copy of The Outer Limits music CDs.

Maybe we should start a TOL-headed thread with the La-La-Land link to alert other fans. I mean, if the three hours of music on this CD is well re-mastered, this represents the motherlode for us. My copy has shipped already. (Perhaps Harry-N could initiate it since he found the link/news first.)
post #166 of 1043
6/12/08 at 11:06am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywoodaholic
Maybe we should start a TOL-headed thread with the La-La-Land link to alert other fans. I mean, if the three hours of music on this CD is well re-mastered, this represents the motherlode for us. My copy has shipped already. (Perhaps Harry-N could initiate it since he found the link/news first.)
Hollywoodaholic,

That's also a good idea.

There is this thread, too:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...ereleased.html
post #167 of 1043
6/12/08 at 12:01pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Wayne, You beat me to the post I was going to mention an idea such as yours; to possibly release at some point in the future, a set that's targeting a certain fanbase of this show, along the lines of something similar to the "Land Of the Giants" season release, etc. That's just an example of an idea that I was thinking about as this thread progressed after the news broke about the soundtrack issue.

Before going further, I'd also like to offer a belated "Welcome" to David aka Carabimero to the forum. Ironic that you joined at such a time, right?

Back to the issue: Those that know my posts here are aware that I'm a first-time viewer of this show (nope, David, I wasn't living on Mars this past 50+ years . I didn't see this show during its initial run and somehow missed it during the syndication years. However, I knew the premise of the show and its well-deserved reputation for an outstanding drama series. Thanks to the forum, and in particular "Gary" who thankfully is on vacation and is unaware of the soundtrack news, I've discovered what you Fuge Fanatics have known for years, that this one's arguably the best series that has aired on U.S. television.

There are several quotes here that are "quotable" for me but Michael's advice about restraint when posting here (and elsewhere) is pretty sound words. There's been many times here that I've been tempted to reply to some "questionable" posts but fortunately, the emotional "governor" gains control of my keyBd before clicking on the "reply" button "It ain't easy, but it's possible".

Enough of off-topic (or off-beat?) meandering.

Along with the majority here, I'm extremely disappointed when I first read the news about the soundtrack removal. It happened just as I was really getting involved in this show as a first-time viewer. I bet all of us here would have bet the farm that this one would get an entire intact release. Well, such is life. Perhaps a solution is possible for a unique, and gathering from the activity at HTF alone, a rather large dedicated base of potential buyers of such a reworked release at some point in the future. Speaking only for myself here, I'd fork out big bucks for the entire (everything intact, excluding any minor specific music tunes) series in a suitably-released Collectors Edition. We see some similar releases over on the film Bd all the time (Director's Cuts, Ultimate Editions, etc). Perhaps such an idea could be floated to CBS/Paramount soon. I tend to look at it from this perspective. If a guy such as myself, who's a first-time viewer would be willing to shell out $$'s for this particular series, would the rest of the Fuge Fanatics go along with this idea if it became a reality down the road?

I realize that budgets are extremely tight these days. That said, would the fanbase of such a top-rate show as this be willing to, say, pass on 3-4 TV/DVD sets that they were planning to buy, in order to buy a Collectors Edition Series Set of the Fugitive? For me, it's a guaranteed "Yes". This is the one series that I'd bite whatever size bullet in $$'s to own the set intact, with those awesome transfer prints.

On a closing note, just imo, but if I was going to place blame for what happened, assuming that this is a music copyright/licensing problem, I'd look at the overall trend of ridiculous music clearance fees that we've seen affect many TV/DVD sets among other facets of the entertainment industry.

Was it LBJ that said, "Come, let us reason together" That can be rather difficult if "Party A" demands what most would consider an outlandish sum for compensation or licensing fees, when "Party B" is trying to negotiate in good faith.
post #168 of 1043
6/12/08 at 12:23pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Jeff thanks for publicly welcoming me.

I, too, am willing to pay an insane amount of money for these unaltered shows, and I'm telling CBS/Paramount that very thing in my handsigned letter.
post #169 of 1043
6/12/08 at 12:31pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

The sales ranking on Amazon has dropped to 274. A far cry from where the season one sets were ranked 48 hours after streeting. So if that indicator means anything, sells have declined more sharply than in the past (but 274 is still too high for my blood).
post #170 of 1043
6/12/08 at 12:42pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I can tell you this, I will check here before I buy anymore classic tv shows on DVD.

Does The Invaders have the original music tracks? Just a little paranoid now...
post #171 of 1043
6/12/08 at 12:42pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I don't just toss out the word BOYCOTT lightly, but I do think that it should be considered in this specific instance. Everyone has their favorite shows and certainly there have been other DVD releases of TV shows which have been somehow distorted from their original incarnation.

I'm not going to try and place THE FUGITIVE above any of them and say it deserves special treatment, but I will say that unlike some of the other shows which have been altered, there is a chance here to convey to the studios that people do care about quality control and are not just going to settle for such a compromised, substandard release. Such an approach probably wouldn't work-and in fact could backfire-for the edited DVDs of, say, FATHER KNOWS BEST, but with THE FUGITIVE you have a show that carries the potential of being as commercially and critically viable as STAR TREK. Unlike the smaller demographics and manufacturing inherent with FATHER KNOWS BEST, Paramount knows that THE FUGITIVE has an organic following which cannot be ignored.

Make your frustration and dissatisfaction known to them in the most effective way: Don't buy their inferior product. Tell them, politely, but strongly, that this product is not worth spending your hard earned money on. Tell them that they must meet certain quality standards or you will simply not invest in what they are selling. I can understand purchasing FATHER KNOWS BEST in a truncated form simply because the odds of it ever being released any other way are slim and a boycott of it will probably only cut short any continued releases. But THE FUGITIVE has more cache to it and Paramount knows this, they are aware that its fans are committed and dedicated and not so forgiving, apathetic or intimidated by a faceless corporation. "Oh gee, let's not anger them or we'll never see any of our favorite shows be released ever!"

Sorry, that's not the solution. There is every indication that they will not abandon THE FUGITIVE, but you can't just sit still and expect them to just suddenly do the right thing because you want them to. You have to stand up and, courteously and ethically, communicate to them that this situation is unacceptable. Think they won't listen or won't care? Try them.

Do not buy this DVD.
post #172 of 1043
6/12/08 at 1:28pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I've been following this thread with interest, but staying out of the way, since I'm a newbie when it comes to The Fugitive, but I think I have found a clue to the problem.

Over at the Film Score Monthly forum, a poster mentioned that the problem is with the publishing rights to the music. The rights were assigned to a defunct company, and CBS/Paramount were unable to find anyone to whom the rights were transferred. So, to avoid any potential legal action, the DVDs were rescored.

Take this with as much salt as you wish, but if it's true, then I'm reminded about what Shakespeare said about lawyers.
post #173 of 1043
6/12/08 at 2:21pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Tim,

Interesting. A wise decision from Paramount so they don't
get bitten in the ass down the road.

I do feel that for the benefit of their consumers, Paramount should
have been up front about what they had been forced to do in both
their press releases and packaging. I truly understand the frustration
from fans of this series who were not informed of these changes in
advance of their purchase.
post #174 of 1043
6/12/08 at 2:32pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Actually, I think a wiser decision from Paramount would have been to delay the release indefinitely and not put it out at all until if and when the original music could be included. Sets have been cancelled for far less.

If the situation above is true, then even if the will existed with all parties involved to find a solution to restore the integral artistic compponents removed, will alone would not be enough without knowing all the parties involved. If true, I fear there is little hope for a proper re-release in the near future.

I hope I am so wrong, but something tells me it had to be a true snufu for them to go to the trouble of redoing the entire score.
post #175 of 1043
6/12/08 at 2:38pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

At the risk of getting my skull crushed, but has something like this (the entire underscore being replaced on every episode) ever happened before?

Also, any explanation as to why?

It's just so bizarre... why is season 1 of Fugitive's score OK but the underscore here need to be axed and redone completely and without any apparent warning because this really well and truly came out of the blue.

Well, as a wise man once said "Le us never negotiate out of fear but let us never fear to negotiate." Somewhere there has to be a middle ground as long as everyone is upfront with the reasons and reasoning.
post #176 of 1043
6/12/08 at 2:43pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I don't want to believe that the real reason was that Paramount was already out of pocket whatever it took them to remaster the season two transfers when someone told them of the potential legal problem and they figured they could at least recoup what they'd spent on the transfers by hoodwinking unsuspecting fans before the rest of the releases went into drydock.

I don't want to believe that. But why weren't they more upfront about the radical changes?
post #177 of 1043
6/12/08 at 3:25pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
I don't want to believe that.
You can believe what you want, of course, but that alone wouldn't make it the truth.

Quote:
but has something like this (the entire underscore being replaced on every episode) ever happened before?
I'm not sure about an entire underscore, but *something* like this has happened before indeed. The problem is this: older TV series and movies had contracts that didn't cover the "new publishing" that DVD legally appeared to be.

Back in 1997 and thereafter some studios lost one or two cases and then had to face huge demands by those who held rights to soundtracks. After that, they assured that newly produced TV shows (and movies!) had contracts covering the DVD as well, but obviously The Fugitive isn't one of those.

Now there are several possibilities. If indeed the legal situation stemming from the original contract is unclear, the studio tries to locate the current owner of those rights and starts negotiating a price. If that price is deemed too high (more than they think they can charge us for), they either can decide not to publish at all, or publish it with a different score. If the price is "right" they add it to the cost of production and determine the selling price.
If they can't find the legal owner, they cannot use it. It's as simple as that, because they cannot obtain the rights.

Quote:
Actually, I think a wiser decision from Paramount would have been to delay the release indefinitely and not put it out at all until if and when the original music could be included. Sets have been cancelled for far less.
Sorry, but that is nonsense. No one forces you to buy it, so you're totally free to consider it as not produced "indefinitely", as far as you are concerned, even if it's there.
In the meantime, other consumers who care just a bit less about the score, can buy it if they like.

However, I agree that it should have been totally in the open.
Quote:
But why weren't they more upfront about the radical changes?
Hear, hear!
The studio should tell us what they're offering: exactly and precisely enough to make our decision. And then it's up to us to decide to buy the product or not. And only if we think the price is right for what we're about to receive.


Cees
post #178 of 1043
6/12/08 at 3:27pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Tucker
Over at the Film Score Monthly forum, a poster mentioned that the problem is with the publishing rights to the music. The rights were assigned to a defunct company, and CBS/Paramount were unable to find anyone to whom the rights were transferred. So, to avoid any potential legal action, the DVDs were rescored.

Take this with as much salt as you wish, but if it's true, then I'm reminded about what Shakespeare said about lawyers.
You mean I may have guessed right? Wow!

Just as an aside, it's usually a lack of lawyers that leads to this kind of situation. People think that a transaction is simple and straightforward, and so they just go ahead and write out a piece of paper without any regard to the technical points that formal training teaches you to consider (in this example, what happens to the rights if the corporation to which you're transferring them becomes defunct).

M.
post #179 of 1043
6/12/08 at 3:37pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I'd never seen The Fugitive in my life until I saw the DVDs. Sure, I knew of the show and knew its storyline but had never seen any episodes as I'm only 27. After seeing the first season on DVD, I liked the music and recognized a lot of it because I'm a Twilight Zone fan too. I don't like the replacement music on season 2 either, it's too modern sounding. I don't like it, but I can live with it. I think what we should do is demand that CBS make replacement discs of season 2 volume 1 with original music tracks. If enough of us complain it might happen. I'd like to hear Twilight Zone music in season 2, particularly Bernard Herrmann's music. It fits perfectly for The Fugitive.
post #180 of 1043
6/12/08 at 3:53pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Tucker
Over at the Film Score Monthly forum, a poster mentioned that the problem is with the publishing rights to the music. The rights were assigned to a defunct company, and CBS/Paramount were unable to find anyone to whom the rights were transferred. So, to avoid any potential legal action, the DVDs were rescored.
Obviously, I don't know how right or wrong that info is but it seems like the only reason that would make any sense.
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