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The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews  

post #1 of 1043
6/10/08 at 2:15am
Thread Starter 
I'm not going to rant and rave, I'll just say that with the exception of the opening and closing title, every piece of music in all the episodes on disc one has been altered (I only spot-checked the rest and they were changed as well). This is hardly The Fugitive without the great music. I know I am in the minority and others may think it makes little difference, but to me the music is half the show. It's too painful to watch, so I'm giving my set away and not buying any future sets where ALL of the music has been replaced.

I didn't complain too much when non-instrumental music in season one had been changed--music on juke boxes, etc., because that music was not composed for the show. They REMOVED ALL the music composed for the show. I could understand if they even replaced the stock music (cues heard in other shows like The Twilight Zone, etc.), but they REMOVED ALL OF MUSIC COMPOSED FOR THE SHOW except the opening and closing titles. What the....?

I still can't believe it. I've waited for years for this show to come out on DVD. I am tremendously sad and disappointed. I sat there in front of the TV and couldn't believe what I was hearing.

Why would Paramount/CBS do this? I can understand them not wanting to deal with clearance issues for a series that will probably sell modestly. But how can it be a clearance issue when it's ALL the music composed specifically for the show? The only thing I can think of is that they didn't want to bother figuring out what was stock and what wasn't, so they replaced it all.

I thought maybe it was a contract clause about using the music on newer media, but the same music they changed in S2 V1 is the same music they used in the season 1 sets.

I still can't believe it. Part of me thinks if I go to bed and wake up in the morning and put the DVD back in, it will all have been a bad dream.
post #2 of 1043
6/10/08 at 4:06am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Wow. That's extremely disappointing. I hope we get more information on why that occurred and whether it's going to continue. I was anxiously waiting for the release and had my trip to the store inked in for today - but now I'm thinking I'll have to rent this set until I hear more.
post #3 of 1043
6/10/08 at 4:14am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Uh-oh!

Harry
...world crashing down around him...
post #4 of 1043
6/10/08 at 4:42am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Uh oh is right! I'm really surprised - Paul Mavis (a reviewer I trust) didn't mention this at all in his recent review of the set. To remove the incidental score composed for the show is just ridiculous!
post #5 of 1043
6/10/08 at 5:32am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

He's mentioned the music disclaimer in each of his reviews.

For instance, for season 2, vol. 1 Mavis writes:

Quote:
PLEASE NOTE: As with most vintage TV series released by CBS/Paramount, there is a small disclaimer (smaller than normal, actually, with no prominent border box for this one) at the back of the DVD slimcase that states, "Music has been changed for this home entertainment version. Some episodes may be edited from their original network versions." There is no further explanation of what cuts, if any, were made. Most of the episodes time out at around 51 and a half minutes, which is about right or close for the original network run times. It's possible, though, that these are the syndicated versions, which may account for the minor cuts for time. As well, music licensing fees are exorbitant for vintage TV, with most studios opting for simply replacing expensive music cues with music either in their domain, or generically produced specifically for those replacement cues. Edited TV shows are one of the hottest topics concerning DVD releases, and as a reviewer, I've taken both sides of the issue, depending on what title I'm reviewing. It's usually a case-by-case basis.

It would appear that he is simply not familiar enough with the show to recognize what was removed.
post #6 of 1043
6/10/08 at 5:55am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Sorry, I wasn't attempting to imply he was being deliberately misleading. It's just that in other reviews (Odd Couple springs to mind) he mentioned some of the specific edits.
post #7 of 1043
6/10/08 at 6:17am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

David,

I really hope you're kidding here. Removing the dramatic score from this series is like cutting out its heart. Since often it's close to wall-to-wall, I just can't believe it. Imagine the work required to do this!

If true, my candidate for DVD Defamation of the Year.
post #8 of 1043
6/10/08 at 6:24am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Just a follow-up. Is this possibly a manufacturing problem, rather than a "creative" or copyright choice? Like those goofy Andy Griffith episodes that showed up in the initial DVD releases sans laugh track? (Which were then corrected.)

I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS IS INTENTIONAL!!

Can't wait for David Von Pein to weigh in on this.
post #9 of 1043
6/10/08 at 6:36am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabimero
I'm not going to rant and rave, I'll just say that with the exception of the opening and closing title, every piece of music in all the episodes on disc one has been altered (I only spot-checked the rest and they were changed as well). This is hardly The Fugitive without the great music. I know I am in the minority and others may think it makes little difference, but to me the music is half the show. It's too painful to watch, so I'm giving my set away and not buying any future sets where ALL of the music has been replaced.

I didn't complain too much when non-instrumental music in season one had been changed--music on juke boxes, etc., because that music was not composed for the show. They REMOVED ALL the music composed for the show. I could understand if they even replaced the stock music (cues heard in other shows like The Twilight Zone, etc.), but they REMOVED ALL OF MUSIC COMPOSED FOR THE SHOW except the opening and closing titles. What the....?

I still can't believe it. I've waited for years for this show to come out on DVD. I am tremendously sad and disappointed. I sat there in front of the TV and couldn't believe what I was hearing.

Why would Paramount/CBS do this? I can understand them not wanting to deal with clearance issues for a series that will probably sell modestly. But how can it be a clearance issue when it's ALL the music composed specifically for the show? The only thing I can think of is that they didn't want to bother figuring out what was stock and what wasn't, so they replaced it all.

I thought maybe it was a contract clause about using the music on newer media, but the same music they changed in S2 V1 is the same music they used in the season 1 sets.

I still can't believe it. Part of me thinks if I go to bed and wake up in the morning and put the DVD back in, it will all have been a bad dream.
Carabimero,

There are few posters I've read over the years on any Board who believe that music is half the show. For my own part, I agree with this wholeheartedly. I will even go so far as to say that in certain cases it is more than half of the show. I also believe that this pertains to films in some instances.

I'm very pleased you've written this post, since I would probably have sprung for this show very soon. Now I will wait to see what transpires before doing anything.

Thanks for the heads-up.
post #10 of 1043
6/10/08 at 8:20am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

No offense to Carabimero but I want to hear from someone with more than one post that the entire score (which I assume that Paramount owns) has been removed from the episodes.
post #11 of 1043
6/10/08 at 8:30am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Yeah, me too. I'm noticing his post is identical over at the amazon review page, and a similar post over there is repeated on the Fugitive Yahoo group.

It's either true, or there's a campaign out there to spoil this release for some reason. I'll probably pick up the release if I can find it, so I cam judge for myself.

I find it hard to believe that all of Rugolo's cue's are gone, when they're all intact in the Season One releases.

Did Rugulo or his agents suddenly raise the rates?

Where's David Von Pein? (Probably composing a thorough review, I'll bet!)

Harry
post #12 of 1043
6/10/08 at 8:40am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry-N
Did Rugulo or his agents suddenly raise the rates?
By no means am I an expert on ownership of music, etc. but I would think that Paramount owns the score to the show. With all the talk of music replacement, have you ever heard of a score being replaced? If that was a possibility, I think it would have happened before now on small catalog movies and other small TV shows.

Unless there was some very weird legal snafu when the contracts were signed (and even 45 years ago, there would have been a ton of lawyers working to make sure that wouldn't happen), I have a real hard time believing this.
post #13 of 1043
6/10/08 at 8:57am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR
Unless there was some very weird legal snafu when the contracts were signed (and even 45 years ago, there would have been a ton of lawyers working to make sure that wouldn't happen), I have a real hard time believing this.

And what sort of proviso would suddenly kick in for Year Two when all was beautifully present in Year One?
post #14 of 1043
6/10/08 at 9:10am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

The Rugolo score and cues were all composed and recorded before the show ever aired. Rugolo (as I recall from the liner notes of the soundtrack CD) was unavailable to work on the score during the show's run, so he recorded multiple iterations of the themes for use in different settings.

As stated above, if all was hunky-dory for Season One's two releases, what suddenly happened to make Season Two's use of the same music suddenly verboten?

And really - does anyone even think it's feasible that CBS Paramount actually went to the considerable trouble to weed out the old score and add a substitute? (On a release that was actually *ahead* of the prior release pattern?) I'm still skeptical until I hear more from credible sources.

Harry
post #15 of 1043
6/10/08 at 10:36am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR
No offense to Carabimero but I want to hear from someone with more than one post that the entire score (which I assume that Paramount owns) has been removed from the episodes.
Yes, corroboration is very important. I'm all ears (or eyes)!
post #16 of 1043
6/10/08 at 11:35am
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

No offense taken, guys. The reason I signed up to post here last night was BECAUSE of this set and I was so irked off. Although I made a similiar post at Amazon, I did not make the similiar post at Yahoo.

I have been a FUGITIVE fan for thirty years. I know every scene, line, and phrase of music. Believe me now or believe me later, but the music, all of it, has been replaced.
post #17 of 1043
6/10/08 at 11:44am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Here's your corroboration - and it's as bad as "Carabimero" intimated.

I picked up THE FUGITIVE, Season Two, Volume One at lunch today, and have just had a head-scratching turn at listening to the abominable music substitutions on the first episode, "Man In A Chariot". While I didn't watch/listen to the whole thing, just skipping through the chapters where the Act I, II, music would play, none of it was recognozable.

I decided to skip to another episode on Disc One - more of the same.

I plopped in Disc Three and attempted the same on "Escape Into Black" - yes, sadly, this once great episode has been reduced to more of the same music substitution treatment.

Deciding to let the end credits play, I noticed a music credits screen in the end credits listing a "Music by Mark Heyes" line. Now I've been reading FUGITIVE credits since my earliest encounters with the show in the '60s, and I don't ever remember seeing a name like "Mark Heyes" as a music composer.

Looking up Mark Heyes the composer in the IMDb yields:

Quote:
Composer:
2000s
1990s
The Tsunami Diaries: A Voyage to the Epicenter (2006) (V)
"Daddio" (2000) TV series (unknown episodes)
"The Brian Benben Show" (5 episodes, 1998-2000)
- Motivating Kevin (2000) TV episode
- Of Mice and Benben (2000) TV episode
- Brian's Got Back: Part 2 (1998) TV episode
- Pilot (1998) TV episode
- Have One for the Show (????) TV episode


"Grace Under Fire" (38 episodes, 1996-1998)
- Grace Under Class (1998) TV episode
- Fall from Grace (1998) TV episode
- Fire in the Hole (1998) TV episode
- Digging Up the Dirt (1998) TV episode
- Grace Under-funded (1998) TV episode
(33 more)

Assuming that's the same fellow, he's a current day composer, yet he has an end credit on a 1960's TV show. Obviously, CBS/Paramount has contracted totally new music for this series using current-day people. The big question is: "Why?"

I'll probably keep this set, but I'm not happy with it at all. I might force myself to watch an episode or so, but I can't say I'll enjoy it. Having half of a show isn't nearly as good as having the whole thing, and Peter Rugolo's music was a large part of the enjoyment of THE FUGITIVE. Without it, it's not the same experience at all.

Harry
post #18 of 1043
6/10/08 at 11:58am

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carabimero
No offense taken, guys. The reason I signed up to post here last night was BECAUSE of this set and I was so irked off. Although I made a similiar post at Amazon, I did not make the similiar post at Yahoo.

I have been a FUGITIVE fan for thirty years. I know every scene, line, and phrase of music. Believe me now or believe me later, but the music, all of it, has been replaced.

Sorry, David. It's just that "drive-by" posters have fooled people on Internet message boards before, so our community here just wanted further evidence of the claims in your post. As you can see in my post above, I'm now sadly in your camp. This is an abomination of the highest order. I hope that this has ramifications far and wide in the industry to stop this practice.

As a FUGITIVE fan, I'd pay MUCH more money, if that's what it takes, to get the episodes as they existed in the '60s. Hell, if NuVentures Video can get the music rights, why is CBS/Paramount foisting this garbage on us.

The problem here is:

We complain about the music substitution. Potential buyers shy away from purchasing this set. CBS/Paramount detects a lack of interest in the show and stops producing any more sets. Where does THAT leave us?

Maybe it's better that they DO stop producing FUGITIVE sets if this is what they're going to do to it.

Harry
...totally bummed, with little hope for the future...
post #19 of 1043
6/10/08 at 12:00pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I never got as far as the end credits...I just couldn't watch anymore. I did check ESCAPE TO BLACK as it is my all-time favorite, but after the first few bars...I turned it off.

This set is like some perverted hybrid of THE FUGITIVE...crystal clear picture (with the possible exception of CRY UNCLE) and then this abomination of a score.

It is surreal. I can only hope there is enough of a backlash for or lack of sales to make some impression on CBS/Paramount. I am going to try and return my set to Amazon with the reason, but it remains to see if they'll accept it since it's open.

Man, I am really bummed. I know we're just talking about a freakin' DVD set here, but it's got me down.
post #20 of 1043
6/10/08 at 12:10pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Thanks for the heads up. I was about to order this set on the DD sale today but I will not support gross tampering with vintage shows (Route 66 cropping, anyone?) It's definitely a head-scratcher. What were they thinking? Is there a separate rights agreement for the background music on the show that has to be cleared, and perhaps the composer didn't like the treatment first time around? We definitely have a mystery here.
post #21 of 1043
6/10/08 at 12:17pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

This absolutely stinks. I have bought both season one volumes and I would have happily bought the rest of the series.

The question is why the hell has this happened? Not a single fan of the series wants the show in this way.
post #22 of 1043
6/10/08 at 12:29pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale MA
This absolutely stinks. I have bought both season one volumes and I would have happily bought the rest of the series.

The question is why the hell has this happened? Not a single fan of the series wants the show in this way.

I'm sure CBS/Paramount didn't want it this way either, so there must have been some weird stink about the rights to the music that wasn't revealed to us. Some advance notice or a greater attempt to use the music would have been worthwhile, rather than getting all the show's fans depressed and angry.

I would assume that the music comes from CBS/Paramount's stock music library, rather than being new compositions, so it wouldn't be as noticeable if you didn't know what the show should sound like. Mark Heyes has a lot of credits as a music editor, and that would be cheaper than creating new compositions.

Maybe David Lambert at TVShowsonDVD can ask someone at CBS about it?
post #23 of 1043
6/10/08 at 12:38pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Guy Foulard
I'm sure CBS/Paramount didn't want it this way either, so there must have been some weird stink about the rights to the music that wasn't revealed to us. Some advance notice or a greater attempt to use the music would have been worthwhile, rather than getting all the show's fans depressed and angry.

But to have 95% of these music cues used in the first season, and then to have the rug pulled out from under us in season two just really stinks.

Quote:
I would assume that the music comes from CBS/Paramount's stock music library, rather than being new compositions, so it wouldn't be as noticeable if you didn't know what the show should sound like. Mark Heyes has a lot of credits as a music editor, and that would be cheaper than creating new compositions.

Knowing the original score the way I do, I can hear that Mark Heyes attempted to mimic the old Rugolo score without using the same notes. It's like, if you know STAR TREK, think of the latter animated show's theme as being some sort of sonic opposite to the real thing. This attempts a similar thing with the melody going down instead of up in places, and the instrumentation sort-of mimicking the original.

My thought about the stock library is this: much of THE FUGITIVE's music was actually sourced from the CBS stock music library. Old stuff from Bernard Herrman's TWILIGHT ZONE scores and Dominic Frontiere's OUTER LIMITS stuff. Suppose the problem lies there - that these older cues and their rights-holders are the ones that caused this upheaval. CBS/Paramount, rather than having to pick and choose which cues needed replacing might have found it easier to just have this Mark Heyes character come up with totally new stuff and just replace it all.



Quote:
Maybe David Lambert at TVShowsonDVD can ask someone at CBS about it?

My thoughts exactly. Hopefully he'll be in touch with this thread and proceed with that course of action.

Harry
...try imagining STAR WARS without John Williams score...
post #24 of 1043
6/10/08 at 12:52pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Since The Fugitive was a Quinn Martin/ABC production, I wonder if some of the music rights were lost somewhere along the line? No one's noticed this with The Invaders or Streets of San Francisco, have they?

If this had originally been a CBS show like HGWT or Gunsmoke, this problem probably wouldn't have come up, due to CBS' presumed continual holding of rights to their music library, including all the excellent Bernard Herrmann cues...
post #25 of 1043
6/10/08 at 12:52pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

This is a difficult question to ask but if one ignores the original score for a moment, then how is the new score? Does it fit the mood of the series or does it seem completely out of place in a program from the sixties?

You see I've seen very few of these episodes originally so I am not at all familiar with the shows music.

This really does suck. I can live with a couple of background songs being replaced, hell at a push I can live with a replaced title song but the ENTIRE score. That's a new low.
post #26 of 1043
6/10/08 at 1:00pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dale MA
This is a difficult question to ask but if one ignores the original score for a moment, then how is the new score? Does it fit the mood of the series or does it seem completely out of place in a program from the sixties?

You see I've seen very few of these episodes originally so I am not at all familiar with the shows music.

This really does suck. I can live with a couple of background songs being replaced, hell at a push I can live with a replaced title song but the ENTIRE score. That's a new low.

If you've seen Season One, then you're already familiar with the show's original score. It's up to you of course whether or not you can accept this new score.

I've not yet tried watching a whole episode - it's too painful right now. But what I heard, I can say, is that this Mark Heyes at least attempted to fit this score to the old show.

One wonders why they didn't put the music in stereo or 5.1 sound and boast about it on the package! It sounds fairly monaural to me on this computer at work.

Harry
post #27 of 1043
6/10/08 at 1:14pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Here's what's bound to be an unpopular confession: Not being a long-time Fugitive fan (although I'm not quite sure how I missed it as a kid), I found Herrmann's Twilight Zone cues in the Fugitive season-one sets distracting in their familiarity, overused, and frequently (but not always) inappropriate to the action taking place onscreen. Being a hardcore Outer Limits follower, I was actually dreading the Frontiere cues in upcoming Fugitive seasons on DVD.

That said, I loved Pete Rugolo's episode scores, and my stomach went in knots when I started reading this thread. What an abomination -- no matter how closely Heyes attempted to match the original music for this set, all I can think of is that awful synthesizer score slapped onto the first video release of Mario Bava's Planet of the Vampires. Please tell me Heyes at least used real musicians...
post #28 of 1043
6/10/08 at 1:36pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

By coincidence, my Amazon set arrived today.

It is going right back, unopened.
post #29 of 1043
6/10/08 at 1:44pm

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meek Rubel
By coincidence, my Amazon set arrived today.

It is going right back, unopened.

Fully understandable.

As I said, I'm keeping mine. At some point, when the "hurt" dies down a bit, I'll probably be able to look at these episodes. But it will always be with a good deal of sadness at what could have been.

I still have the bulk of these on videotape from either NuVentures or the old WWOR reruns, so if I need to hear the music, I'll be able to dig those out. I also have the score on CD, so that can help out too.

Harry
...hoping David Von Pein is OK - we haven't yet heard from him on this...
post #30 of 1043
6/10/08 at 1:54pm
Thread Starter 

Re: The Fugitive, Season Two Volume 1 - Reviews

I sent David Lambert essentially the first post of this thread last night, so he knows about it.

It blows my mind that composing a whole new score is cheaper than paying for the music that went with the show originally. Maybe Heyes did it as a labor of love. It isn't that his music is bad (I could only make it through MAN IN A CHARIOT), it's just that it's like a sick joke that isn't a joke.
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