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Is it possible that a complete Magnificent Ambersons has been found?

post #1 of 78
Thread Starter 
I just heard that a complete 131 minute print of Orson Welles' The Magnificent Ambersons has been found in Brazil and that Warner Brothers will do a 4K restoration for release later this year or early in 2009. Has anyone else heard about this? Is it true? If so, I'll be one of the first in line to buy a copy.
post #2 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

Source? I am very skeptical.
post #3 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

April 1 was two months ago.
post #4 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

If only it were true though...
post #5 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

Now that you mention it, I was on TCM's website the other night for whatever reason and one of the user comments read as follows:

NOTE: I obviously can't vouch for accuracy here but it's interesting nonetheless.

roberto
Date: 05/13/2008
DVD in 2008/09.
Warner will be releasing the 131 minute restored version of Ambersons in late 2008 or early 2009. A complete print was located in a Brazilian film archive. The print is undergoing the 4k restoration process.

roberto
Date: 05/24/2008
Ameberson film
Ambersons film sent to Welles at his hotel the Copacabana Palace. Film did not leave Brazil after that due to customs problems. Adhemar Gonzaga did not destroy fil as directed, unclear why. So film ends up back at the Palace. Hotel finds film cans after the war and for whatever reason sends film to the Cinemateca. Sometime between 1946 and 1976(?) film probably in unauthorized private hands beacause if still at Cinemateca it would have burned in 1957 fires. It ends up at the São Paulo Cinemateque in 1976(?), cans labeled correctly but ignored by over-worked local perservation staff which assumed it was regular print of film. In 2006 their archivist contacted Warner about film cans which turned out ot be complete print in poor but salvagable condition. Film flown to US once Warner gets o.k. from Brazilan court.
post #6 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

Sounds like a question for Robert Harris.
post #7 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

Robert Harris doesn't go for it.
post #8 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

They found a pristine copy of LONDON AFTER MIDNIGHT in the same vault, I heard. And that four-hour cut of DUNE.
post #9 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

When the majority of the cut footage of Judy Garland from A STAR IS BORN was found, it was a New York Times story months before the premiere at Radio City. The same with the re-discovered Gloria Swanson - Rudolph Valentino film. I would expect this to be treated with similar, if not greater press coverage.

I hope I am wrong, but until I read it in the beleagured but still reliable New York Times, I have my doubts.
post #10 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

If the holy grail of classic cinema had been found, I can imagine there would much more press coverage, but out of sheer hope, I'll remain optimistically skeptical.
post #11 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

Ok, I don't know anything about this but I am Brazilian (I live in Rio de Janeiro) and if this information is not true, at least the one that made this up knew a lot of information about Brazilian culture.

Orson Welles was in Brazil in the early forties to film It all came true. Adhemar Gonzaga was one of the most famous fillmmakers in Brazilian History. He owned Cinedia, the studio the made most of Carmen Miranda's brazilian pictures. And I don't doubt think he collected movie pictures.

Orson Welles indeed stayed in Copacabana Palace during his permanency in Rio.
The Cinemateca of São Paulo owns a lot of rare movies and develops a program of preservation of these picures. So this information could be true.

Since a lot of people (including American) think Brazilian people live in jungles, I am really surprised about so many consistent informations. Therefore I am inclined to think they might be true. Who would have all the trouble to make up a tale naming existent brazilian filmakers and cinematecas that really preserves and restore hard to find movies?
post #12 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

I'm with Robert Harris. First of all, from all I've read here since joining this fun forum, he seems to know what's happening at the various studios - it is pretty likely that he'd have heard about it. The Urban Legends surrounding the film are plentiful and have been going on for years. I don't think this latest has any basis in reality, and it sounds like a hoax, and one that's just a little too well thought out - a few too many details that seem far-fetched. One could almost buy that they sent him a print, but since his version was finished before he left, why would they have? Just for fun?
post #13 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

I would love this to be true. A number of years ago I worked through continuities and found the longer cut quite incredible, inclusive of the opening sequence which if memory permits had constantly moving camera and ran over four minutes.

One of the major factors against is the Brazilian heat and humidity, and its affect on nitrate.
post #14 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

I started that thread over at Wellsnet when I stumbled onto the Amazon page for the Ambersons DVD. It turns out that Amazon has a number of 'boilerplate' pages like that set up. In any event I registered to be notified when Ambersons is officially released on DVD.

In last year's Warner chat the phrase "good elements have been found" for Maginificent Ambersons is what has lead to all this speculation. Nothing is impossible but after 66 years I think the lost footage is lost forever. "Good elements" means that we will eventually see a quality restoration of the 89 minute Ambersons that we are all familiar with.

BTW has anyone running this board contacted Warner for an Ambersons DVD release date, they did say last year that it would be out in 2008.
post #15 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

"Good elements" on the re-cut version and "good elements" on the Welles cut are two different things.
post #16 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

From the 2007 Warner chat:

[PeterNichols] All's well that ends Welles... My subject is Orson Welles. When will WB release The Magnificent Ambersons and/or Journey Into Fear? Or heck, any other Orson Welles related stuff? Including HD.

[WARNER] We have finally found good elements on AMBERSONS, and plan to release both AMBERSONS and JOURNEY in 2008.


A pretty clear statement, nothing extraordinary. I agree with those who believe that if the lost footage were found Warner would be making a very huge deal about it.
post #17 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

I would love for it to be true, but do not believe it is. As to its being found in Brazil: it has long been hoped that if it did exist, it would be somewhere in South America, due to Welles being down there for It's all True. So, looking for it in Brazil is nothing new.

I'd so like to be proven wrong on this one.
post #18 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

Everyone and anyone that have ever researched this came to the same conclusion.

That the print was never returned to Culver City.
post #19 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

Everyone would like it to be true, but only the gullible would believe this, IMHO. Especially when people quote William Friedkin and then people say he never said it - it's what always happens. And everyone gets their hopes up and that is what the creator of the Urban Legend or hoax lives for. As a few people have said, if it were true this would not be a secret.
post #20 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

I read the thread over @ Wellesnet. Two guys from Wellesnet were there when Friedkin made the alleged remark, and one of them does not remember Friedkin saying anything about the rest of Ambersons being found. So, there is not even agreement among the two guys who were there.

Sometimes, one hears only part of something, and it may be the opposite of what one thinks. He may have said something like "I wish I could say that the rest of Ambersons has been discovered, along with It's All True", and only the second part of it was heard. My wife does that all the time-half listens to something and misses the part that negates the whole thing. The weather man will say "not a chance for rain today", and she'll say "did he just say "chance for rain today?!"
post #21 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

Why would the studio send a complete cut to Welles in Brazil when the film was taken from him and recut against his wishes?
post #22 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

Vanity Fair magazine published a story in January 2002 by David Kamp called "Magnificent Obsession" that detailed the various scenarios of the uncut film surviving. Friedkin is quoted in the article but he's never claimed the movie was found. It appears the print sent to Welles in Brazil was never returned to RKO, as Mr. Harris pointed out. To sum up what the article said about all this: The last documentation of it still existing is correspondence between the print service department from the New York RKO office asking the editing department in Hollywood what the "Brazilian office" should do with the prints of Ambersons & Journey into Fear in their possession. The reply was "to junk" the films. This correspondence dates from Dec '44 & Jan '45. That's the end of the line for any documented proof the print still existed. No record of anything after that. The version of what could've happened as detailed in the story is pretty much the same as the earlier post by Scott D S quoting TCM message boards-I'm sure that's where this latest rumor started. Of course we'd all love to be proved wrong.
post #23 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B_K
I read the thread over @ Wellesnet. Two guys from Wellesnet were there when Friedkin made the alleged remark, and one of them does not remember Friedkin saying anything about the rest of Ambersons being found. So, there is not even agreement among the two guys who were there.

The Friedkin thing is just an honest case of mis-speaking on his part or mis-hearing what he said at that event.
post #24 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

Why would the studio send a complete cut to Welles in Brazil when the film was taken from him and recut against his wishes?

It was definitely sent to Brazil. Welles was down there filming It's All True, ostensibly to foster Pan-American relations. He did not have time to edit Ambersons before heading down to Brazil, so RKO sent the film and a movieola to him so he could work on it while filming It's All True. At this time, Welles' friend George Schaeffer was fired from RKO, and new management took over. That's when Welles was fired, and It's All True canceled. RKO then had Ambersons edited without Welles (and had some scenes reshot by Robert Wise), and that resulted in the 88 minute cut we have today.
post #25 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B_K
Why would the studio send a complete cut to Welles in Brazil when the film was taken from him and recut against his wishes?

It was definitely sent to Brazil....

Thanks for that David. Now it makes sense for the story to circulate. That was the first flag that it was all BS before I knew the story.

I wont be holding my breath though.
post #26 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

Quote:
Originally Posted by David_B_K
Why would the studio send a complete cut to Welles in Brazil when the film was taken from him and recut against his wishes?

It was definitely sent to Brazil. Welles was down there filming It's All True, ostensibly to foster Pan-American relations. He did not have time to edit Ambersons before heading down to Brazil, so RKO sent the film and a movieola to him so he could work on it while filming It's All True. At this time, Welles' friend George Schaeffer was fired from RKO, and new management took over. That's when Welles was fired, and It's All True canceled. RKO then had Ambersons edited without Welles (and had some scenes reshot by Robert Wise), and that resulted in the 88 minute cut we have today.

I don't know that this is quite accurate. I believe Welles did finish editing, because they certainly screened his version of the film at a preview, which, as is well noted by many sources, did not go well. It was then that the film was re-edited and scenes re-shot.
post #27 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyFeldman
I don't know that this is quite accurate. I believe Welles did finish editing, because they certainly screened his version of the film at a preview, which, as is well noted by many sources, did not go well. It was then that the film was re-edited and scenes re-shot.

Thats what I thought too, hence my first question. I'm far from an expert though and thing I saw on it was probably 15 years ago, so I can't really comment on the authenticity. My thinking is that it's not a case of a bunch of prints going out and then being recalled for editing. Hence I suspect we'll never find a lost complete cut, there couldn't off been that many complete prints in the first place. I think some show talked about the cut bits negatives being destroyed, which is why it can't be properly reconstructed. Anyways, I'll shut up about with my arm chair speculation and leave it to the experts, but not without pressing my luck and asking one more question...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
I would love this to be true. A number of years ago I reconstructed the continuity, and the longer cut was quite incredible, inclusive of the opening sequence which if memory permits had constantly moving camera and ran over four minutes.

This is the first I heard of any reconstructed continuity. Can you comment on whether or not new footage was added, or point me in the direction of an article you may have written and I missed? I'm admittedly a bit of a fan of your resteration work Mr. Harris, you got me dead curious on this one.
post #28 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

Check out the book (probably out of print, but probably not hard to find):

The Magnificent Ambersons: A Reconstruction by Robert Carringer. It's pretty interesting and does exactly as Mr. Harris does - using film continuity and scripts he reconstructs Welles' version - not on film, but in print.
post #29 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

Our continuity came about in the early '90s, when Ron Haver and I decided that it would be a great project to re-make MA, precisely as Welles had made it, possibly in B & W, and with current actors.

We had several discussions with filmmakers, but in the end it was shelved.

I'll have to check my files for a copy. It was tedious work, but led to the first time that I realized precisely how brilliant the original version had been. The current cut is bits and pieces of original and re-shoot, most noticeable in the boiler scene.

RAH
post #30 of 78

Re: complete Magnificent Ambersons

I'm sure most here have seen the original trailer, but for those who haven't it features some brief glimpses of material eventually cut from the film:

The Magnificent Ambersons trailer
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