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Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

post #1 of 43
6/8/08 at 12:40am
Thread Starter 
I don't want to see any more classics undermined or realized well short of their potential - so is there anything to be done, or do you think these are already too far along in the production stage?What can we do- just snail mail our concerns? I'm guessing that The Omen, for instance, is already too far along to be evaluated and (postponed- if necessary) but what about the material due in Q4? or next spring. I'm sure a few people here will say I'm flying off the handle, but I would rather come across as hysterical now, and maybe prompt a little more circumspection before the fact, rather than have to post disappointment after something is already on the shelf- and years away from a more attentive remaster.
Is pre-emptive snail mail the only good recourse here?
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post #2 of 43
6/8/08 at 4:09am

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Anyway, at least the hysteria has moved away from the format war to this issue.





Crawdaddy
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post #3 of 43
6/8/08 at 11:33am

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Anyway, at least the hysteria has moved away from the format war to this issue.
In a big way too.
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post #4 of 43
6/8/08 at 1:15pm

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Yeah, I'm not saying DNR is something we shouldn't be working against but damn...
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post #5 of 43
6/8/08 at 4:30pm

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

I highly doubt Fox is going to fudge the Planet of the Apes release. The picture, and sound quality will probably be leave us speechless(in a good way). As far as bonus features, that should be impressive also. If it's anything less than perfect I'll be the first to complain, but I don't think it will come to that!
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post #6 of 43
6/8/08 at 4:38pm

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryan^H
I highly doubt Fox is going to fudge the Planet of the Apes release. The picture, and sound quality will probably be leave us speechless(in a good way). As far as bonus features, that should be impressive also. If it's anything less than perfect I'll be the first to complain, but I don't think it will come to that!


Before it was released, I thought the same thing of Patton. It did leave me speechless, but not in the same way. I couldn't believe what they had done to it.

Doug
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post #7 of 43
6/8/08 at 9:43pm

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Before it was released, I thought the same thing of Patton. It did leave me speechless, but not in the same way. I couldn't believe what they had done to it.
Yeah, given the issues with the Patton disc noted by no less an authority than RAH, I think "hysteria" was an unfortunate choice of words.

Still, I don't think there's any way the consumer base can be preemptive as to specific titles. All we can do is make as much noise as possible about problem titles that have been released.

M.
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post #8 of 43
6/8/08 at 9:48pm

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

The one thing that helps Alien in this regard is that Ridley Scott is still alive. I'm a little more concerned about POTA, as Franklin J. Schaffner is no longer with us. That being said, Fox did right by The Sand Pebbles, so there's always hope.
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post #9 of 43
6/9/08 at 6:33am

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

I agree, I think 'hysteria' is an unfortunate choice of words as well. The enthusiast has seen way too many instances of Blu-ray Disc releases that have been DNR'ed to hell to do anything but realize this is a real problem and complain loudly.

These studios have got to realize that, while the mass market is their ultimate aim, it is the enthusiast that is going to keep BD 'alive' while it tries to reach it. By overly processing the image, they are defeating the purpose of HD and offending the customer base that would have eventually recommended this format to the later adopters.
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post #10 of 43
6/9/08 at 6:48am

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Arnette
The enthusiast has seen way too many instances of Blu-ray Disc releases that have been DNR'ed to hell to do anything but realize this is a real problem and complain loudly.
In my own personal observations, the worst examples have been on HD DVD, but that's because the worst studio -- so far -- has been Paramount. (I just added some comments on Trading Places to the old Paramount Blu-ray thread.) At least some of those same masters are now being recycled to Blu-ray, but it's the future transfers that will bear watching, especially from other studios.

M.
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post #11 of 43
6/9/08 at 7:11am

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
In my own personal observations, the worst examples have been on HD DVD, but that's because the worst studio -- so far -- has been Paramount.

I agree; however I didn't see much point in mentioning HD DVD since the focus, for me, is on the 'here and now'. In the 'here and now' there are still plenty of examples of the studio'ss over-zealous application of DNR, and, while Paramont is clearly an offender, New Line and Fox immediately spring to mind as well.
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post #12 of 43
6/9/08 at 8:41am

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

I would suggest a sticky thread regarding the issue with all of the addresses/contacts to each major studio where we can write letters to. I think the more snail mail letters EACH studio gets, the greater the likelyhood we can do something about this madness.

Yes, this is the new war and something I think most of us can unite against.
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post #13 of 43
6/9/08 at 8:44am

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Arnette
I agree; however I didn't see much point in mentioning HD DVD since the focus, for me, is on the 'here and now'.
At least with respect to Paramount, those transfers are still the "here and now". There's no indication they're redoing them for Blu-ray. In fact, the only chance they'll get redone is if there's a lot of complaining about the versions on HD DVD.

M.
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post #14 of 43
6/9/08 at 9:03am

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave H
I would suggest a sticky thread regarding the issue with all of the addresses/contacts to each major studio where we can write letters to. I think the more snail mail letters EACH studio gets, the greater the likelyhood we can do something about this madness.

Yes, this is the new war and something I think most of us can unite against.

I suggested something similar in the Patton thread. I don't have a problem starting one, but I want to be sure it has the backing of this forum so it isn't closed as being redundant or viewed as 'stepping on studio's toes'. Additionally, I could really use some assistance succiently and adequately describing the issue and compilling a list of affected titles.
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post #15 of 43
6/9/08 at 6:51pm

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

i couldn't tell from the first post but what is it we are trying to save the
Apes and the Aliens from.

is it the dnr'ing or something else.
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post #16 of 43
6/9/08 at 7:15pm

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
i couldn't tell from the first post but what is it we are trying to save the
Apes and the Aliens from.

is it the dnr'ing or something else.

It's the DNR'ing...a lamentable practice, to be sure, but not on the level of, say, pan-and-scanning...
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post #17 of 43
6/9/08 at 7:16pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD
i couldn't tell from the first post but what is it we are trying to save the
Apes and the Aliens from.

is it the dnr'ing or something else.
Yes. Sorry. Should have been more clear on that in the inital post.
Ideally I would like to save them from "the good scrubbing" they are getting as we post (which I'm thinking was relayed-verbatim- to Bill Hunt, by his Fox contact.) Because after Patton and TLD, I can only imagine that may be what some people over there see these as needing for some reason.
Also, my perhaps greater concern is that the DNR is being 'hardwired' into the newer (re)masters. Sand Pebbles was released in a remastered edition just last year so maybe this aspect is just the luck of the draw and not an institutionalized approach yet.
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post #18 of 43
6/9/08 at 7:37pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

.
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post #19 of 43
6/9/08 at 7:43pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Brashear
It's the DNR'ing...a lamentable practice, to be sure, but not on the level of, say, pan-and-scanning...
I don't think DNR is as serious a sin as MARs either.
OTOH, I won't support a 'premium' product who goal is mediocrity and excused with a "well it's still better than the (much lower priced, more accessible, and emminently watchable) alternative"
Others and myself are not petitioning for some theoretical, pie-in-the-sky perfection. We simply want the higher degree of source fidelity that this format is capable of providing. I want my favorite films to be reproduced in a way that celebrates their genetic heritege...rather than seeming to be ashamed of it.
Or if that's too purple/pretentious for you- I don't want to wait a frustratingly long time, and then pay a premium price on top of it, only to get a product that has been dumbed down to excel with the lowest common denominator display or viewer.
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post #20 of 43
6/9/08 at 7:50pm

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Brashear
It's the DNR'ing...a lamentable practice, to be sure, but not on the level of, say, pan-and-scanning...

I would say that if something like 20% of the high frequency information is missing because DNR has been used, its getting pretty close to Pan and Scan.

Doug
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post #21 of 43
6/9/08 at 7:50pm

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

If DNR can be used in some sort of moderation and preserve detail while getting rid of only a bit of film grain instead of what is being done now which is getting rid of detail and grain altogether....then that would be acceptable. If they can't learn how to use DNR moderately then they shouldn't bother at all.

Also don't forget that DNR is not the only problem these films might face. Video codecs are another issue...Predator is a fairly recent Blu-Ray release and for some odd reason they chose to use MPEG-2 instead of AVC MPEG-4. Let's just hope they don't make that mistake with the Alien movies or POTA.
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post #22 of 43
6/9/08 at 9:52pm

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel.H
Predator is a fairly recent Blu-Ray release and for some odd reason they chose to use MPEG-2 instead of AVC MPEG-4. Let's just hope they don't make that mistake with the Alien movies or POTA.

At least Predator wasn't DNR'd.
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post #23 of 43
6/9/08 at 11:25pm

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Since the DVD releases of Aliens seemed to receive such mixed/mostly negative feedback regarding film grain/noise, I can only imagine we should fear the worst w/ that one, if that's coming anytime soon (before Fox learns otherwise). I suppose it could look quite a bit worse than something like the Life of Brian BD though, which I found ok enough in that regard. OTOH, maybe James Cameron will step in to stop the heavy DNR craze, if they involve him on it...

_Man_
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post #24 of 43
6/10/08 at 5:04am

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I would say that if something like 20% of the high frequency information is missing because DNR has been used, its getting pretty close to Pan and Scan.

I still think that's hyperbole...I understand your frustration, but I still say the comparison is weak, small apples to boulder-sized oranges...
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post #25 of 43
6/10/08 at 6:00am

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Everyone has to write them. ALL of you need to sit down and write a quick letter to FOX or you are just farting gas.

Blu-Ray was like the Holy Grail to my husband and I and now it's been transformed into a nightmare. We've stopped pre-ordering BD's. We made the decision after PATTON and will not buy any more titles with DVNR. That means we wait for reviews from people we trust.

And frankly, we're probably just going to say 'whatever' in many cases and just not buy at all.

BD is capable of theatrical quality presentations and the studios are ruining it.
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post #26 of 43
6/10/08 at 8:11am

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gabriel.H
If DNR can be used in some sort of moderation and preserve detail while getting rid of only a bit of film grain instead of what is being done now which is getting rid of detail and grain altogether....then that would be acceptable. If they can't learn how to use DNR moderately then they shouldn't bother at all.

Also don't forget that DNR is not the only problem these films might face. Video codecs are another issue...Predator is a fairly recent Blu-Ray release and for some odd reason they chose to use MPEG-2 instead of AVC MPEG-4. Let's just hope they don't make that mistake with the Alien movies or POTA.

Don't get me wrong. DNR when used correctly is a very useful tool that can help a film transfered to video look more like it does on film. But using it like a sledge hammer is not the way.

Predator I believe was one of the first movies prepared for blu-ray, when the blu-ray studios were almost exclusively using mpeg2. By the way a properly prepared mpeg2 file, given a high enough bit rate can look every bit as good as AVC or VC-1. It's just very inefficient compared to the newer codecs.

Doug
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post #27 of 43
6/10/08 at 8:14am

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
Since the DVD releases of Aliens seemed to receive such mixed/mostly negative feedback regarding film grain/noise, I can only imagine we should fear the worst w/ that one, if that's coming anytime soon (before Fox learns otherwise). I suppose it could look quite a bit worse than something like the Life of Brian BD though, which I found ok enough in that regard. OTOH, maybe James Cameron will step in to stop the heavy DNR craze, if they involve him on it...

_Man_

Even Cameron commented that when he went back and looked at Aliens after a few years he was surprised at how grainy it was. I wouldn't mind if they did some grain reduction on the film, as long as they don't remove detail with it.

As Mr. Harris has stated, Lowry has a proprietary process that can completely remove grain with out losing detail.

Now I wouldn't like to see them remove ALL the grain from Aliens, but I could see them toning it down a bit. I think the nature of video has over exaggerated the grain on this particular film. I don't remember it looking like that in the theater.

Doug
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post #28 of 43
6/10/08 at 8:16am

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Travis Brashear
I still think that's hyperbole...I understand your frustration, but I still say the comparison is weak, small apples to boulder-sized oranges...

I don't think so at all. In both cases the film is missing information that is vital to the story telling. Not to mention the fundamental look of the film has been altered.

Doug
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post #29 of 43
6/10/08 at 8:26am

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Don't get me wrong. DNR when used correctly is a very useful tool that can help a film transfered to video look more like it does on film. But using it like a sledge hammer is not the way.

Predator I believe was one of the first movies prepared for blu-ray, when the blu-ray studios were almost exclusively using mpeg2. By the way a properly prepared mpeg2 file, given a high enough bit rate can look every bit as good as AVC or VC-1. It's just very inefficient compared to the newer codecs.

Doug

Doug, correct me if I'm wrong, and I very well could be, but doesn't the application of DNR also make it authoring discs more 'efficient'. I think that this probably has more to do with the 'sledge hammer' approach you referred to than trying to appease JSP to whom Blu-ray Disc still sounds like something Indiana Jones found in Area 51.
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post #30 of 43
6/10/08 at 8:33am

Re: Is it too late to save the Planet of the Apes...or Alien...or...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Arnette
Doug, correct me if I'm wrong, and I very well could be, but doesn't the application of DNR also make it authoring discs more 'efficient'. I think that this probably has more to do with the 'sledge hammer' approach you referred to than trying to appease JSP to whom Blu-ray Disc still sounds like something Indiana Jones found in Area 51.

DNR is defiantly a useful tool particularly for standard resolution video. The less detail the lower the bit rate can be. But it can also be used as a crutch for lazy compressionists. They don't have to work quite so hard when there isn't as much information in the video master. But the low resolution of SD provides cover for this practice as it hides much of the damage being done by layering on DNR with a trowel.

When you get into HD however, it becomes painfully obvious whats going on. I honestly think this application of DNR is simply a hold over from SD by technicians that just don't know any better.

Doug
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