Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer? - Page 4

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

well, this is exactly what I'd be telling every one that asks me about Blu Ray from now on.

This news has certainly completly eliminated any thoughts of buying into Blu ray for me now or in the near future.

Cetainly don't need another future pile of useless expensive Blu ray dvds to go with my obsolete HD-DVD collection, besides my equipment rack is maxed out already.

Super Hi-REZ DVDs/near Hi_DEF DVDs will be more than enough for me, and I don't care about Lossless even though I'm setup with SACD. So I'll wait.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Why is this whole thing starting to sound like all Tosh is doing is re-releasing HD DVD players re-tooled to just upconvert sd dvd? How does this new upconversion differ from the already fantastic ability of the higher end HD DVD players? I always thought the Tosh HD DVD players did an awesome job upconverting the sd dvds that were mastered or remastered in hi-def, what's different here? More than likely, nothing. We would really have to be foolish to buy into this. I love HD DVD. It was the first of the two formats I bought into. When they threw in the towel after the Warner announcement I was disapointed, to say the least. I have un-easy feelings towards anything they have to offer in the way of new tech at this point and that won't change for awhile. This is desperate from them IMO. I can't support it. I will keep throwing my weight exclusively behind Blu-ray. Blu-ray is the hi-def format, like it or not. I can't accept a "maybe it will be as good as hi-def" player when we already have one out there that definately is.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

There´s no way to make SD discs to "look HD". You can improve the "upscaling" to that certain point, but the limits are there. Like I said earlier, people seem to have misunderstood the whole concept of "upscaling". It was never meant to make SD to look anything more than "quality SD".

Since people started to buy (some years back) these HD-TV sets/projectors/etc and e.g. HDTV-set has only one "native resolution" (e.g. 1080p), they needed the player that can "upscale" the SD to match that HD resolution. The point wasn´t to make "SD to look like HD". Of course, since the upscaling can be complicated process, the quality varies from player-to-player and from TV-to-TV. This "close to HD" was basically invented during the format war and is (apparently) now used purely to the marketing purposes.

I have no problem, if e.g. Toshiba is marketing some player with "best upscaling in business" or something (since we ALL should know, that nothing is perfect and we need proper reviews/tests with every player anyway) - even with "we´re using new upscaling technology".

But bringing Blu-ray into this and use some "make your SD DVD to look like Blu-ray"-slogans is pure BS.


What´s this "rebuying their collection" stuff? Who says, that you "have to rebuy" your whole collection etc? Is this the "main argument" not to buy a Blu-ray-player?

I have, what, 2000 SD DVDs. There´s no way in hell, that I´m ever going to "rebuy" all of them in BD. Most of my "horror/exploitation/Euro cult"-titles will probably never (of course, who knows for sure) be released on BD and there are zillion of "classics" from Warner alone, etc etc.

"Rebuying their collection" has a very little to do with Blu-ray. It´s totally up to you.


This issue has been discussed to death in here, especially during the "war" (and after that in the infamous "doomsday"-threads). I believe the tide is slowly turning and it´s a fact, that many now have at least that HDTV at home.. With that HDTV at home, it´s quite tempting to go with Blu-ray.

Time´ll tell, of course, but I don´t see that the current situation is as grim as Michael says.


If "5$" is the limit, then I doubt that you´ll need a Blu-ray-player (it´s not that every people have to get one).

Still, many people buying movies all the time are probably wondering, that should they still get their NEW releases in DVD for 15-17$, if you can get the same title in Blu-ray for $20-25 (sure, some Fox-titles are more expensive etc - just making a point here).

So again, it´s not just "rebuying their collection", it´s making that decision to get those new releases in Blu-ray now when you can (not all of them, though) and then be selective and "rebuy" only those titles that you really want/need. And perhaps even get them for these on-going sales ("3 in the price of 2" etc).


It´s not going to be "same quality of Blu-Ray". If they´re saying that, they´re lying. And what is "majority"? People just abandon the idea of getting that Blu-ray-player and the whole A/V community starts buying one magical player from Toshiba? I doubt it.

Give it a rest Toshiba. Like Carlito says: "You lost MF".

edit: Btw. Why Toshiba didn´t want to make Blu-ray-players? Business decision (they wanted out from the HD-game etc) or more "personal" (they didn´t want to be part of Blu-ray, which won)?

I mean let´s think about; Toshiba Blu-ray player with "best upscaling" in the business (and decent price range). That "slogan" would sell some players for sure. Oh well...

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

You and I know this. The majority of members here know this. But your average shopper at WM, BB and CC doesn't know this. Toshiba will sell to them and not us.


Yes. Everyone here knows that but we are still a very small portion.


I certainly didn't mean to make it sound grim. I personally don't see the problem with SD staying the "top dog" with BR, downloads or this new Toshiba machine battling for second place. There's really nothing wrong with any of this stuff so the people will decide what suits them the best. This is why I said I think the majority are happy with how their current DVDs look on their current systems.


The majority of the shoppers at WW don't have the money to buy something now just to wait for the future. They can't afford to pay $17 for a SD and then buy the HD versions for $25 when it is released six months or a year later.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I don't recall the mainstream getting into DVD just to show off their theater system. They jumped in for extras, not having to rewind a tape, smaller product and the fact that studios turned their backs on VHS. I personally don't think the studios are going to kill off SD. Unless they do I don't see the format going anywhere because most people sit down and watch a movie. They don't sit down to show something off or to inspect each and every frame for EE or the wrong sky color.

Since getting that PS3 a few weeks ago I've been renting BR discs and I have my own feelings on them but that's for another thread. I know what to look for in a transfer so I'm "in the know" like the majority of people here. My girlfriend, her two kids and her mother on the other hand are your average customers. Not a single one of them could look and see a difference to where they'd jump.

I'm in Louisville and the Cincinnati area when I'm at the girlfriends house but I just don't hear too many people talking about it. The biggest video store in Louisville rents both HD and BR but I've been told there are under 7 people renting them. The Movie Gallery up by my girlfriend's house just started renting them but the Blockbuster hasn't. No one take this as political but the working scene in Louisville is piss poor right now. Sometime from tomorrow to the end of the year I'm going to be out of a job when GE closes doors. There are 4000 other people there that are going to be out of a job. Ford is closing and cutting more and more in Louisville, which has already hurt 3000 people and 2000 more could be coming in the next few months.

The point of saying that is none of them care if BR is #1 or is SD is old fashioned. A lot of people are in that shape so they haven't followed any of the wars between HD and BR and they won't follow whatever war is next. Outside of video folks, no one cares and they never will. You mentioned exploitation titles, which I love as well. Jess Franco is my favorite but I know that his titles only sell a few thousand copies. Most people don't care for him and never will. It would be foolish for me to hope for a day when VAMPYROS LESBOS sells more copies than SHREK. I think us home theater fans are being somewhat foolish as well when we hope that something kills off SD or even puts a major dent in it.

Again, I could be wrong or just too negative.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Well, for me, BD is the "top dog", but I´m fully aware that for the "masses" SD DVD is still the nr.1 choice. I personally hope, that BD will become "nr.1" eventually and it´ll happen in a "natural way" (people will get HDTV-sets, then Blu-ray-player when the prices go down, then more BD-releases... etc).

DVD and Blu-ray will live together for a long time and I don´t have any major problems with that. But the (bigger) studios should release EVERY film in both formats from now on (if they really want that the people could "choose"). That´s lacking at the moment and is pain in the ass for the people like me. I refuse to buy SD DVDs, when it comes to "new films" - they won´t get my money if there´s no BD-release.


While I see your point (I also feel that people are sometimes just nitpicking), this is not the whole truth. Since many have HDTV-set etc, it´s only natural that they want 1080p-material. Many just want the "best A/V quality" (at least that´s the case with me) and Blu-ray delivers that (of course, all "formats" have mediocre releases). Sure, I can show some "great 1080p-quality and lossless audio" to my friends, but it´s true that not all of them really care (they don´t really watch SD DVDs that much - those who are real "movie buffs" have also BD when it comes to my friends).


I fully understand this. There are times when we should take DVD, BD, A/V stuff etc just as they are; fun hobbies. "Real life" is usually somewhere else, though.


Yes, with many of these "Euro cult"-titles, SD DVD will be the best way to see them. Again, I have no problem with that. Then again, "Blue Underground" will release several BD-titles in the near future, "TCM" is coming from "Dark Sky Films", Starz have some good horror-titles, etc. So now when the "war" is over, even the smaller companies have more courage to start releasing BD-titles. And in a certain way, I like to support them.


Like I said earlier, I want BD to be that "nr.1" choice for people (with big selection of movies and all new releases in BD also), but when it comes to DVD, I don´t really wish that the format "dies" just like that (which obviously doesn´t happen). Things can evolve in a natural way. When SD DVD "dies" at some point (could be 5-10 years from now, if ever?), people are already moved to BD.

IMO, now bigger studios should treat both formats (DVD and BD) as "equal" and release everything in both formats. That would at least give BD a fair chance. The "war" already did some major damage, there´s no need to have the "2nd round" with DVD and BD. Both of these formats can now live together and time will tell what´ll eventually happen.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I guess this is just another classic example of vaperware used to hinder the competition. No Upconverter can do much about the main problem of most DVDs out there: nasty artefacts like Edge enhancement, mosquito noise etc.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

If in fact this unit is a "Blu-Ray Killer", it isn't going to need more than a pilllow to do the trick:

Over half of US HD TV owners blurry on Blu-ray | Register Hardware

I agree with the sentiment that if BR isn't taking off, there's nothing to suggest an upscaling DVD player is going to fare any better.

I would still get one (provided it does close to what's advertised).

My appreciation for today's movies is pretty low, so for me, most of the movies I want to own are catalog titles. And I don't want to buy them again. What's the point of me getting BR if it's only for a handful of titles?

I was glad to replace my meager VHS collection (full of used tapes) with DVD's. My DVD collection, in contrast, is huge. And the used DVD's I have aren't any less quality than the new ones.

I do remember there were a lot of LD owners back in the day who didn't want to go DVD because they didn't want to rebuy their collections. If I had to flip my DVD's, I would go to BR. But I don't.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Well according to the stats on the Digital Bits front page, Blu-Ray was 10% of the disc sales for the latest week (6/8/08). Thats pretty darn good for this stage in the game.

So I think Blu is doing just fine.

This sentiment that Blu-ray is not taking off is just not valid. What do people expect? Every movie ever made available right now for $5 each?

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Digital Bits is one thing. What are the Wal-Mart stats?

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I am pretty sure that the Nielsen/VideoScan data that the Bits uses is based on B&M sales.

As for player sales.... Here is a sign that Blu-ray ain't dead.

CrunchGear » Archive » Blu-ray sales see massive increase, finally outselling DVD

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Wal-Mart is not included in the Videoscan data.

Really? Japanese sales data?

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

You are in a teeny, tiny, infinitessimal minority. (OK, an "elite few." )

At any rate, why would you "have to" rebuy your collection if you buy a BD deck that upconverts SD-DVDs, but not if you buy a deck that only upconverts SD-DVDs?

If there aren't enough movies in the world that you don't already own to make buying a new format worthwhile, then don't buy a new format. But the mass market will always be more interested in new releases than in catalog titles.

Like I said before -- there is not enough ROOM, price-wise or quality-wise, for another format in between current SD upconversion and BD. The mass market can't really tell the difference on most TVs, and BD players will cross the $200 barrier by the 2008 holiday season. End of story.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

It's still hard to compare a couple of dozen BD titles with a couple of hundred SD-DVD titles (the Walmart shelf selection). But I think this week's $15 sale is a good sign.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Because the BD players don't upconvert any better than my HTPC. The trick is if the Toshiba chip is better than my HTPC and current BR players.

We'll see how that goes.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Well, I've skimmed over this topic and all I can say is
PFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFt.

Why does anyone put up with companies that outright lie? No one, no matter how much money they have, can take a 640x480 picture and make it identical, or even close to, a 1920x1080 picture. End of rant.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I'm looking forward to some of the upcoming BU titles but I'm not sure what we can or should expect. Apparently the Spaghetti Western Collection was a major bust so are they going to lose more money just to put it on HD? I would like to think so but I'm not sure. If those "big" SW titles sold poorly on SD then what about all those lesser known titles? BU did wonderful work on their Franco titles but they are still full of specs, scratches and so on.

As I said, I'm "HD ready" and just have to start buying the movies but I don't see that happening anytime soon. Perhaps I'm wrong but I feel like the studios are just using fans as laboratory rats to see what will or won't fly. The HD buyers are screwed and out of luck. I don't want to start buying new titles on Blu just to have something else pop up and kill this thing off or keep it a niche market where I'd have to buy new titles on Blu and catalogue titles on SD.

If this new machine turns out to be true then I'd be happy with it since I haven't started my new collection. However, if I had started a Blu collection then I'd be pretty upset that this might hurt the format more by certain titles not getting released.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

How about 720p?

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Maybe they can bundle this with the ever-popular Enhanced Definition TV for a perfect "not HD" experience.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Unless I missed something, I have not seen an "official" statement/announcement from Tosh on this, so it has yet been proven to be any kind of lie.

I am hoping it's real, tho.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Is the apparent technology being used the super-resolution as explained / shown at thedeemon.com?

Long time lurker - but I can't post URLs to other sites after I've made 10 posts or more - - - LOL

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Why doesn't Toshiba spend the time and money working on next generation video viewing machines? Weren't they part of the partnership with Canon a few years back on something called SED? This was to be a Plasma and LCD killer. Anything doing on this front?

Also, why don't they build a killer BluRay machine? At least when Sony lost the Beta-VHS war they ultimately made VHS machines.

Will people not care any longer about the tremendous sound they've been hearing at home? Won't the BluRay folks be putting out competitive priced units by Fall 2008? So what if Toshiba comes out by Xmas with it's killer upconverting machine. I'm sure that Blu Ray will match or come very close in price with better features. I don't understand the point of all of this except to try to stick it to Sony.

The marketing folks at BestBuy etc will have a field day. But will everyone else? More confusion in the marketplace? And Toshiba believes that is a good thing?

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

If you enlarge a digital photo that is 640 x 480 to 1920x1080 then photoshop the image to fix the obvious flaws it now has you can indeed approach the standard of the larger image. I know you can do this cause I've done it many times. why can't a dvd box do esentially the same thing on the fly. I will buy said box when its available.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Hmmm... Did you do this for print output or for on-screen viewing at 100% magnification?

For print output, I agree, but for on-screen viewing at 100%, I cannot. Of course, this also applies to some extent to practical HT app -- it really depends on your screen-size-to-viewing-distance ratio.

Still, the softer results w/ images in motion are generally less noticeable in practice than w/ still images, so YMMV some there.

BTW, going back to the possibilities that a smarter multi-frame algorithm can offer, I'd like to point out though that there's probably a huge caveat there in that the MPEG2 video *already* requires the video decoding algorithm to do something like that to even pull out a reasonably artifact-free video stream at 480i/p. There might not realistically be too much more that can be extrapolated/interpolated further to recreate lost details w/out creating even more objectionable artifacts as a result. It's not like the magic upconversion algorithm will be working w/ a pristine, full bandwidth, lossless video stream afterall.

In any case, all we have here are nothing but pure speculations. I for one have no desire to keep on waiting for Toshiba (or whoever else) to prove they can do the kind of magic that's needed to make my entire DVD collection equal what Blu-ray already offers -- that's even assuming my entire collection consists of the best DVD quality, which it definitely does not. If/when a great title comes out on Blu-ray (and is not priced out of my range), then I'm gonna get that and enjoy it. If the Toshiba magic somehow turns out to be real, *then* I'll consider what to do from that point forward -- and maybe Blu-ray prices will get slashed accordingly in response, if it's for real, so that it won't matter much anyhow...

_Man_

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

They probably will, eventually. Right now, though, they probably see themselves as at a disadvantage - their BD sales send patent money to their competitors. In the meantime, they're still profiting off DVD, and even if this doesn't extend DVD's life that much longer, it's still useful technology.

Eh, I don't know about that. It's the same basic idea as what Imax does to 35mm film to make it look good on their screens, and most of those look pretty nice. Toshiba is basically trying to do the same thing at a smaller scale in real time. The output won't be the same as actual HD-source material, just as when The Dark Knight opens next month, the enhanced footage likely won't be quite as good as the parts actually shot in IMAX, but it'll look better than standard 35mm.


Idle question - if Toshiba announced that they were putting this enhancement technology in DVRs, TVs, and receivers, would it be perceived as such a threat? I mentioned before that I would love to have it in a DVR to make my digital-tier channels not look like crap. New DVD players are just the first place Toshiba will be selling it.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

There is no way that this player can turn an ordinary DVD into something that looks as good as HD. It's not possible because the amount of detail on the DVD doesn't exist for it to be upconverted to look like HD. To this day, I haven't found one SD DVD that has been upconverted that comes even close to a good HD presentation.





Crawdaddy

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Ron,
You simply can't make hamburger into Filet Mignon.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

The Chinese have been turning mushrooms and soy protien into convincing meat substitutes for years now.

The thing to keep in mind is that for an overwhelming number of consumers, it doesn't need to do 1080p. It barely needs to do 720p (and probably under that). There is a limit to what our eyes can see as a function of display size:viewing distance, and when you say it cannot do 1080p, I say, "so what?" It probably doesn't need to mimic more than 680p to look like HD. What it really needs to do, and what current upscaling players don't do, is to mimic HD color range. If they can pull of that trick without weird artifacting, then they're really on to something.

Some people are complaining about JP6 falling for marketing tricks, but if you're watching 1080p on a 50" set 10' away and thinking it's any better than 720p or that 1080 is the only way to make "true hi definition", then you're the one falling for marketing tricks.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I don´t fully see your point. We "fans" are enjoying 1080p-films NOW (Blu-ray, but still also HD DVD in some degree). The quality IS there already. At least I don´t have to "wait" anymore, I just buy and enjoy movies (at the moment, both Blu-ray and SD DVD - and some HD DVDs also).

There´s no "something else" coming to "kill Blu-ray," if we´re talking about that physical media (who knows about "downloading" etc). Certainly Toshiba´s "new player" won´t kill Blu-ray. If Blu-ray really "dies" at some point (it already won one "war", so I doubt that it´s going anywhere in anytime soon), it´s not because "something better is coming" around the corner or because new "upscaling player" is coming from Toshiba.


This is slightly puzzling. You actually bought PS3 (=Blu-ray player also), but now you´re "happy", if you don´t have to buy any actual Blu-ray-titles? Sure, I fully understand, that you don´t want to "re-buy" your whole collection (or not even those older catalog-titles), but if you really have the player, you might as well enjoy it, IMO.

If you´re going to wait and see, that what this magical player from Toshiba will deliver or is there some "new format" coming around the corner, you probably have wait a quite a while..

You´ve PS3, enjoy it. What TV you´ve, btw? If it´s 1080p, you should enjoy those Blu-ray-titles a great deal.. It´s quite hard NOT to see the difference (between Blu-ray and SD DVD)..