Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer? - Page 3

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Hyothetically, (and extrapolating from what has been disseminated earlier in this thread), let's assume the following:

* The new Toshiba player upscales ordinary DVDs to high-def resolution while simultaneously cleaning up MPEG-2 compression artifacts via a new, improved DSP algorithm.

* The new Toshiba player will also play new discs (which we are calling "Super DVD" or S-DVD).

* S-DVD discs can be played on *all* current DVD players and/or computer DVD drives. As you know, Blu-ray discs require a Blu-ray player.

* When played on a Toshiba S-DVD player, the S-DVD disc will provide nearly all the interactive features currently being touted by Blu-ray. It will (apparently) be using a derivation of the HD-I interactive layer developed by Microsoft. This interactive layer will be ignored by regular DVD players

* S-DVD discs will benefit from HD-I in another very important way (from a studio's perspective): While all S-DVD discs can be played in all regular DVD players and computer drives, the interactive layer adds new copy protection to the disc. In particular, computers will no longer be able to easily copy the contents of a S-DVD.

If all of this were hypothetically true, would the masses not embrace it over Blu-ray??

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Hypothetically, everything you say is fine, except that comment above. THAT is what would earn them a lawsuit. You cannot add high def resolution to something that doesnt have it, so you also cant claim it. Period. This isnt like Blade Runner, where you can go into a room on a picture, see things that didnt get photographed. As cool as it would be.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I like what I am reading. Like everybody else said.....we have to wait and see what this player can do before we start judging.

But here is a thought I had. How about Toshiba produces a BD player (cough, cough). And they incorporate this new technology into their BD player for all of the SD DVD's. Man, could you imagine how many they would sell. I mean, they don't have to waist all of their time and energy to fight against BD. How much marketing dollars would they invest in this? And how much of that budget would go against fighting the BD message? Again, it they think that they can do this and have the funds for this...more power to them. But it seems like such a waist of funds to fight against something that is already there. Why not join the BD forces but make your product stand out from all of the other ones in the market.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I'm not sure I see the logic in designing a product with 2 similar technologies built in. Most people will choose to go one way or the other, and will not want to spend money on what they will see as a hybrid product. LG [and perhaps others] tried this with HD-DVD and Blu Ray. Even if HD-DVD would have survived, I doubt these hybrid players would have really caught on because they were buggy and expensive compared to either standalone player.

Also, what you suggest is a cooperative strategy. I think both Toshiba and Sony are only interested in royalty-producing dominant strategies.

John

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

^ I largely agree with you. But...

Many of us here have thousands or at least hundreds of SD DVDs. Many of the titles we've waited years for are just now making it to SD DVD; I think we can presume they won't make it to BD anytime soon for the most part, some likely never unless BD dominates for a longer time than SD did. And many of the titles we like "just enough" to own, but perhaps not enough to rebuy in another (more expensive) format.

So...if these can be made to look better by Tosh's fancy "upscaler/interpolater" than by current dumb upscalers, then I would think many here would welcome that. If it does what they claim, I'd hope they'd license it to others. So let's see what impartial observers say before we rip a technology our old catalogs could potentially benefit from. Nobody's stopping us from buying our BDs.

Let's see how this tech is presented. I don't see manufacturers who have a vested interest in getting you to (re)buy BD media only would be too keen on having this tech in their BD players. And getting people to buy a new type of SD player would be tough. So this tech probably needs to be in a Toshiba BD player to have a hope. Would BD even be licensed to those who'd incorporate this tech? I doubt it based on what we've seen so far. But you never know, there may be a window of opportunity here for a new type of Tosh SD machine to capture a price-conscious part of the market...if they hurry. Though it will be at least a few years before the number of BD titles comes close to SD ones, I couldn't stand it if all I had to choose were from BD titles...there may be a less price-conscious "legacy" market to tap too.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Even though I just got a PS3 a couple weeks ago I must admit that this "news" is the best thing that has happened to this format (if true). I got the PS3 pretty much for free or else I'd still be sitting out of the game but I think I'd jump on this Toshiba plan (again, if for real). I think the majority of people out there would as well. This here seems to have a lot more going for it when shown to a general viewer.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Very interesting topic. First, what's getting too me is that those that feel that this thing is DOA are mostly the same people that already embraced uspcaling abilities from their current players via HD players or the famed Oppo or Zenith players. I think it's safe to say that most of us here in this thread no longer watch DVDs at 480p. DVDs scaled to 1080i or 1080p is our way of life now.

That being said, again some interesting comments about the J6Ps but the one thing I think here is that it can actually drive the cost of BD down considerably. Let's assume the following:
Joseph Bolus brings out a very good point which I think could be the next generation of DVD players that we actually need. BD is HD but just simply putting it "too damn expensive". The same reason why it has not reached the masses as they would hope and it's left earlier adopters hanging with the 2.0 version, grave disappointment. If this thing is cheap enough and it can compare to BD I say welcome aboard. I'm still floored on how the A3 scales DVDs via HDMI, can I picture something even better, don't know but I certainly think this can move the masses up to 1080i or 1080p since most of the people now are buying HDtvs. Commercials all over talking about how satellite, cable or FIOS can provide HD, now with a player cheap enough and real HD looking video (if true) on the market for the masses will do quite well.

The final point is the fact that DVDs is simply not going anywhere and why not have it viewed the best way possible. The masses are not going to let go their collection, heck most of us here have not relinguished our DVD collection because of the fact it's not all available in HD and with scaling capabilities, on some movies it's hard to tell the difference under certain circumstances.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

This week you can buy a PS3 at Walmart for, essentially, $300. By the time this technology comes out, $200 BD decks and $50 upscaling SD-DVD decks will almost certainly be on the shelf. What are they going to charge for these? They won't show much improvement over other upscalers (NONE as far as J6P is concerned), and they won't play true HD discs. That's a pretty small price window.


I wish them much luck in managing 100% compatibility, but I'm not holding my breath. Ever try to play a DualDisc in a PC drive? I would be very surprised if they managed to come up with an entirely new disc layer that doesn't cause any problems in existing players.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Now that I think of it...a few months back I recall seeing an ad from Tosh, full page, in a HT magazine. It was teasing the intro of Toshiba 1.5.

Could that be this?

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I think the point is they say they can make the billions of SD DVDs already out there look better than any current simple upscaler can. Until observed, one shouldn't say they can't. They do have some technical skill there.

I wouldn't concentrate much on their new format discs. It's much easier to "keep" an old customer (SD DVD users) than to get a new one (BD, S-DVD, etc.).

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

This whole thing is a very bad joke. I keep thinking that this would be appropriate for April Fools.


Most people can't tell a difference, or don't even care about a difference between upscaled DVD and BD. Toshiba's new technology has no chance of any appreciable market acceptance.

Plus, take a guy like me. I started with HD DVD. I was a happy camper. Then I got a BD player. I was a happier camper. Then all of the sudden, my $300 investment into HD DVD hardware and software goes right down the toilet. (Sure, I can keep using the player and the discs, but to what point? Until the player breaks and no one can fix it? Until the eventual BD versions comes out?)

So me myself and I, I wouldn't touch this new stuff with a 10 foot pole because I feel extremely burned by Toshiba.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Yes, but a lot of people have difficulties to understand this. For many, this "upscaling" means that it´ll make the "DVD" look suddenly "much better" and some poor souls even think that it´ll make DVD to look "like HD".

They fell for the marketing hype.

It´s funny how this "upscaling"-thing has grown and grown over the years. First you needed it to buy an expensive external scaler, then an expensive DVD player (yes, around 800-1000$) and then you started to get decent upscaler with many of the DVD/TV-models (and also "cheaply").

To this point it was actually quite simple; People with HD TV-sets and such could watch their old SD DVDs in a "decent way", since the upscaling from "SD DVD to HD" was good. But we all knew, that the "upscaled DVD" was still just "upscaled standard definition", that´s all.

Then we got the "format war". It left some bitter feelings and anti-BD talk.. Suddenly also the meaning for "upscaling" changed a bit. "Good upscaling is almost as good as HD, I don´t need BD".. "I don´t see any difference between good upscaling and BD"... etc etc. The tone changed. From "realism" to "unrealism".

Now this "upscaling" has introduced as a part of some mystical "Blu-ray killer" and (some) bitter people can have "one last chance" to fight back (against BD).

I used to have respect for Toshiba for various reasons and they made some decent players. Now I have to say, that screw them. This "Blu-ray killer" is a 100% joke. And a sad joke, I might add, considering that Blu-ray is doing better and better. These type of odd "upscaling"-talks will only confuse the "Joe 6-packs" out there. Some might actually believe that "good upscaling is as good as HD"...

Do yourself a favour guys; If you want the best A/V out there on "home video" (let´t debate on the downloading/HDTV in some other thread), choose Blu-ray. There just isn´t any substitutes. Period.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

So, it's come to this? If the new Tosh players make hi-def and remastered in hi-def sd dvds look like HD that rivals Blu-ray discs, have we all been suckers? This whole movement to 1080p resolution and how a regular sd dvd couldn't touch a blu-ray no matter what the upconversion told us, all just marketing bullshit? Ultimately, we all invested in these new formats and swore by them and now, we believe what we never would have before? This has to be a joke. Surely nobody here believes this player can do this? If this is in fact true, then, hi-def must be a figment of our imagination since you don't even need software to be in uncompressed hi-def for this player.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Wow! It is hard to believe that some people can't get over the format war. I bought both systems, but I was definitely leaning more toward BD; however, if BD had lost the war then I would have switched back to HD DVD. The only reason for the existence of either of these formats was to present films with the best picture and sound possible. Some people need to wake up and realize that what matters is the films, not the format.


I don't believe that any technology that Toshiba comes up with will make a DVD look identical to a Blu-ray HD disc. No amount of upconverting is going to create a picture identical to a properly mastered film on BD, because the detail isn't there on DVD. Toshiba can upconvert all DVD all it wants, but the fact of the matter is that DVD is limited to 480p, limited bandwidth, and limited color space. Those limitations affect the amount of detail that can be displayed in the film's master.

I have not seen one upconverted DVD that comes even close to looking like a well mastered BD. Upconverted DVDs all look soft to me and I don't expect Toshiba's "miracle" technology to change that equation any time soon.

Toshiba's claims just sound like so much crap to me. This latest attempt at "extending" DVD just looks like an act of desperation by a company that seems to be as incapable of moving forward as some of their former customers are. The last thing we need is Toshiba muddying the market with garbage claims of being able to make DVD look identical to Blu-ray discs.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

The point of this "new technology" is to extend the life of DVD discs and by further extension lengthen the amount of time that Toshiba continues to collect royalties on the production of DVDs. Putting this technology into a Blu-ray player defeats its intended purpose; therefore, hell will freeze over before you see Toshiba putting out a Blu-ray player that incorporates this "new technology".

God. All this thing sounds like is a resurrection of high compression, red-laser based HD discs. The very same shitty system that was rejected right at the very beginning of the HD DVD/BD format war. Let me guess. The "new S-DVD" will be triple-layered, with a maximum storage of 15 GB.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I think the most intriguing thing about what we're hearing is the possibility of the player being able to clean up MPEG-2 compression artifacts on the fly. (Will this work by bringing multiple frames into a huge RAM buffer and then "massaging" the frames via the new DSP circuitry?)

I don't see any of this as supplanting BD on any kind of tech level. But with the economy now officially in the dumps, I can see consumers more willing to spend $150 on a deck which will make their current DVDs look (significantly) better on their new HD displays while simultaneously providing some of the new interactive features promised by Blu-ray. The big question is going to be "Will the studios (or any studio) start producing 'Super DVDs'?" And will these S-DVDs be truly backward compatible with all current DVD players? And may it be possible (even) to eventually produce a double-sided S-DVD with a true high-def VC-1 transfer on the other side? Hmmm ....

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Beta suffered from the "good enough" scenario vs. VHS years ago. Beta lost because the average consumer thought that VHS was "good enough". If enough players, outside of Toshiba, get out there that have this technology the average consumer may think it is "good enough". I would think that the industry should make it to where it can not be labeled as HDM in way though. As it is not and cannot be.

It may have another side effect too though. It may get enough people out there to see what a better picture can look like from their SD DVDs that they become interested enough to pick up a Blu-ray when their prices come down on their machines and the discs themselves. In other words as a stepping stone from their current SD DVD units to a Blu-ray.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

J6P has an HDTV for a year, but can't watch HD movies.

Suddenly, for no reason & out of the blue, he decides "hey, I need a new DVD player. I want to watch HD movies."

So he heads to Best Buy & asks: "I want to watch those HD movies on my HDTV. I can't do that with my old DVD player. What do I do?"

Best Buy salesman says: "You'll need a new machine. You've heard about Blu-Ray haven't you?"

"Yes!," says J6P. "Do those play HD movies?"

"Absolutely," says BB salesman. "And here are several players. Panasonic, Sony, Samsung, Magnavox, Pioneer, Daewoo, LG and a few others. Here's one for $300. All of these play BD movies AND they will make your old DVDs look great. And here are the BD movies from Disney, Sony, Fox, Warner Brothers, and all the other studios."

"Wow. Really? Anything else?", J6P asks.

"Well, Toshiba makes an upscaling DVD player. It won't play BD movies. But it will upscale your 480p DVDs to make them look near HD quality. It's not true 1080p. It's $200."

J6P, "Huh? I have a DVD player already. I want one that plays HD movies."

Best Buy salesman, "Well, if you are going to buy a new machine, I'd spend the extra $100 and get one of these BD players. We have 15 to choose from."

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

If the Toshiba specs are true, the scenario would unfold as, "you can buy this BR player, DVDs will look great and you would need to rebuy your collection, or this Toshiba player will make your existing DVDs look as or almost as good as Bluray. And you save 100 bucks".

There are a lot of moving parts that need to work out to make that statement valid, but if the results are as touted, it could be said.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Before the end of the format war...when asked, I would lead people to HD-DVD. Afterwards, I talked to them about BD.

Now..I would tell'em to wait...and see just what Tosh may have up thier sleeve.

Think about it...who would have thought you could get an amazing image on a 5" disc...be it DVD...HD-DVD...or BD!

This is possible!

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

There may be another highly unwanted side effect too.

If most people think it's "almost as good as BD" then certain cheaper studios may decide to run the DVD version of a movie through this chip, marginally approve the result a bit more, add a DD+ track .... and presto: the BD/1080p version day-and-date with the DVD release!


Cees

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I wish Toshiba would go bankrupt and end the farce that upconverted DVD can be made to look the same or almost the same as BD or even the now deceased HD DVD system. Unfortunately, my wish has no possibility of coming true, but how happy I would be to see the newspaper headline....TOSHIBA FILES FOR BANKRUPTCY.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

^ Oh please. Sony is far more likely to go bankrupt first, they're barely hanging in there now. And they owe a lot of people over the next relatively short time period. Who knows, maybe Tosh is looking for a buyout? Primping their outlook...

I don't think there are too many players in this hi def game who can escape without serious criticism. It's a wonder they have any working product at all.

I wouldn't go inventing too many what-if scenarios, based on past delivery performance. This could all be marketing BS (as if they could understand what the techies are saying, presuming they ever talked to them).

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Well, if SONY goes under (which I doubt) then we can all go back to Toshiba's wonderbread DVD player that magically will be able to turn SD-DVDs into HD DVDs. I mean, essentially, that is what they are claiming their VLSI interpolation chip is going to do.


I'm not sure what this has to do with anything? Yes, all the players in the HD game could have been criticized and, as I recall, they were. Whether, it is a wonder or not, it remains a fact that there is working product out there. We have just barely come out of a bruising battle to determine which of those working products would become the High Definition standard.

Yet, here comes Toshiba with the yearning to start yet another pointless format war. All because they do not want to relinquish the brass ring of royalties that they receive for every DVD sold. Worse yet, they want to start it with a system that is, and will be, inferior to either BD or their own HD DVD system. They can build all the interpolation chips they want, but how do they get around the bandwidth and color space limitations of DVD?

We finally arrive at a standard for HD media and Toshiba just can't resist trying to muddy the waters with what amounts to nothing but false advertising.


As far as I am concerned their wonderbread Super DVD system is all marketing BS, and that is what is rankling me. Toshiba is probably fully aware that this "faux HD" system has no chance in hell of actually equaling the quality of a properly mastered film on BD or HD DVD: yet, they insist on marketing this new "faux HD" system in order to re-ignite a useless and ultimately damaging, to real HD media, format war.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

What these days isn't marketing BS? The best marketer wins.

It is a shame that Toshiba had to even reference BD in this. And that phrases like "Blu-ray killer" even get used. That's strictly to stir the still-muddied waters. Nothing like a yellow headline to get forum/blog hits. A much-better upscaler is all I want. Or not...I won't lose anything, just want to gain more from the back catalog if possible. I doubt this "device" will happen.

I made the comment about "criticism" because it seemed you picked out Tosh to vent anger on. Maybe that's just in this particular thread... As I have said already, they are not one of my preferred brands (to be polite), but if they have tech that I could use presented in a format I can use...

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Since we're all just guessing at this point in time. If Toshiba knows there's no actual way for this new machine to make SD discs looks better than HD then I doubt they're going to try and full those people who will or do know the difference. This new machine might be aimed at folks who simply don't know the difference or don't want to have to rebuy their entire collection again. If this new machine is an option to avoid rebuying their collection then I'd guess these are the people who Toshiba are going to aim at.

Perhaps I'm wrong but I still believe the majority of DVD owners either don't care or simply don't know. I'd be willing to bet just about anything I have that the majority of them can't even take advantage of a 16x9 transfer or a DD 5.1 track. Most of the people I know are watching their DVDs on a 4x3 screen and using the TV speakers only. If these people can't even take full advantage of SD then I doubt they are going to make any type of jump to a new format.

I'm not sure if it's just around here but I go to several stores weekly. Best Buy, CC, Wal-Mart, Target and a few others. I remember a couple years ago that countless people were in the DVD sections but today it seems the numbers are down each time I go into one of these stores. It seems the only thing bringing people to movies is the dump bin at Wal-Mart. I'm going to guess that a lot of your average shoppers go to WM weekly and pick out of this $5 bin. I'm sure even your average J6P (a dumb word in my opinion since they are the majority) has a great collection of movies due to WM $5 bin or those $5 and $6 sales offered by CC or BB.

I don't think HDs biggest challenge is battling us folks here who are constantly watching for the latest releases but instead trying to convince those who have built a collection on $5 movies that they should turn their back on that and start buying a new format and new movies for over $25.

Now, if Toshiba tells these people that they can save a few hundred bucks and get the "same quality of Blu-Ray", I'm sure the majority would go for this idea.

If this machine is real and gets out to the mainstream, BR will then have to decide to drop their prices and try to win the battle with this new machine. However, I seriously doubt a majority would win between keeping your collection and starting one over again.

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Toshiba stole my youth! Oh wait, wrong thread!

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Actually, I think most of them would say "what's Blu Ray?"

No matter how well the salesman explains both Blu Ray and Toshiba's product, I think the average consumer will tune him/her out once they hear that they will have to buy another DVD player, when there's nothing wrong with the one they already have.

John

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I don't see this as a blu-ray killer or another war. If true, this will be another choice for consumers. I think when all is said and done, there will be a number of different choices for consumers who want hd quality. Competition never hurt anything. Also I don't think they have to make it to 1080p. If they can push it to 720p quality that may be good enough. Considering most people probably have $2000 or less flat screens, there may not be a huge noticeable difference between 720p quality and 1080p quality.

As to consumer confusion, Sony does it as well. Look at the packaging of Sony's upconverting dvd players. They certainly do intimate that you will get hd quality pictures.