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Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer? - Page 2

post #31 of 213
6/4/08 at 1:05pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

The upconversion with the new Oppo players bring out as much as I believe possible from the SDDVD's, not sure that Toshiba can do better!
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post #32 of 213
6/4/08 at 1:07pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Well, if this software is designed for the Cell processor, maybe us PS3 owners might get to inherit it.

BTW, are we sure that Sony didn't know about this already and even sold the Cell processor manufacturing to Toshiba w/ this in mind a few months back (after Toshiba waved the white flag in the HD format war)? That whole deal seemed kinda odd (and intriguing) to me, but I haven't heard a peep about it since then.

Also, what does DVD "extension" mean anyway? Are they actually going to revise and extend the DVD format specs, not just provide hardware for better upscaling? The linked article is a bit too cryptic to tell. Makes me wonder if they're not gonna come out w/ something like Super-DVD that's still fully backward compatible w/ DVD (and then try to get studios to release movies in this S-DVD format).

_Man_
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post #33 of 213
6/4/08 at 1:27pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

On another forum, someone mentioned something like this. Using the example of hybrid SACD's that would play on standard CD players. Thus a Super-DVD being backward compatible is feasible.
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post #34 of 213
6/4/08 at 1:48pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

There was talk a month or two ago about a "DVD 2.0" format, basically bringing the low-overhead HD DVD stuff over - pop-up menus, internet connetivity, etc. (for all the tooth-gnashing about space being used on interactive stuff rather than picture/sound quality, I gather some of the HDi stuff can be done with very little code), maybe along with adding DD+ or even TrueHD as optional audio formats like DTS.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AL KEUNSTER
The upconversion with the new Oppo players bring out as much as I believe possible from the SDDVD's, not sure that Toshiba can do better!
From what I gather, the difference between what Toshiba's planning and what current players do is that Toshiba is throwing enough power (both in terms of hardware and sophisticated algorithms) at the picture that it won't just be upconverting individual frames, which is what most of the machines out there do, but looking at multiple frames in sequence. That could, potentially, be a huge benefit, piecing together more detail than might be found in a single frame and also reducing compression problems that upconverting sometimes exacerbates.

That Toshiba is developing this technology is a good thing - I strongly suspect that the DVD players it makes it into won't cost significantly less than Blu-ray players, but once it's developed, it will likely also wind up in HDTVs (maybe making the digital channels on my cable system look less like complete ass), DVRs, and, yes, Blu-ray players (whether because Toshiba eventually manufactures them or because they license the technology to Sony, Samsung, etc.).
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post #35 of 213
6/4/08 at 1:48pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein
John,

The political analogy was not necessary. I understand what you were
trying to say, but I wish you did it without going there.

Sorry Ron. I meant nothing by it.


Quote:
...If you introduce a player that can produce picture quality that rivals BD, at a cheaper price, it could be a "Blu-ray killer" of sorts.

I guess that's the million dollar question. Will it really rival BD quality. Being a technical person, I am of the belief that no "derived" output can ever truly exceed the quailty of its source.

Quote:
At this point, with Blu-ray being as expensive as it is, the
public isn't looking to replace the large libraries of DVDs in their
homes.

This is the best arguement in Toshiba's favor.

Quote:
On the plus side, this new Toshiba entry will force Blu-ray to
lower their prices on hardware and software ...

Again. I would anticipate this only if the quality is really comparable, and even then, only after it succeeds in taking substantial market share from Blu Ray, which will be somewhat difficult to quantify.

Quote:
I really don't blame Toshiba for doing what they are doing. They
have technology that will make standard DVDs look remarkably
comparable to Blu-ray. Why would anyone not want something like
this in their home?

Toshiba has confused the market with both HD-DVD and now their upconverting players. As others have implied, people may not be willing to purchase yet another ambiguous [from their perspective] Toshiba box. Then again, as long as it requires no long-term support and plays standard DVD's, who's to say. I for one, would be a bit wary.

John
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post #36 of 213
6/4/08 at 2:36pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter
On another forum, someone mentioned something like this. Using the example of hybrid SACD's that would play on standard CD players. Thus a Super-DVD being backward compatible is feasible.

If that's really the route they're going, then it can certainly make sense. Of course, that wouldn't really make existing SD DVDs comparable to good Blu-ray quality though.

RE: the mentions of more sophisticated upconversion algorithms (and deployment in more expensive hardware that may not cost all that much lower than BD players), I guess that's possible if current upscaling players only handle upscaling one frame at a time. It still may not compare to the best quality that Blu-ray offers, but not every BD title offers that either. And who knows? The mainstream consumer may actually end up prefering the kinds of overcooked processing that might also show up in such algorithms, eg. witness the 120Hz motion smoothing processing of many LCD TVs, SVM, etc. It may not be true HD, but to the untrained eye, it may actually *seem* better than the true HD that a film-like BD offers -- and that would be unfortunate for us. Maybe Toshiba realizes this and believes that they can retain a huge majority of their DVD market that way while only losing the smaller population of enthusiasts/videophiles...

_Man_
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post #37 of 213
6/4/08 at 2:52pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I think characterising this as the format war being about to resurface is inaccurate, and here's why:
1. No new format is being proposed
2. We're dealing with a form of DSP, again, not a new format
3. There are no indications of compatibility issues.

What is going to happen here is possible consumer confusion, and I think the analogy to MP3s is accurate. At worst, this could have the effect of turning BD into the HD equivalent of SACD/DVD-A. The proof is going to be in the results of Toshi's new technology and the price. If J6P and JWiaB say, "good enough," there will be no widespread adoption of BD as the next big thing and it will, at best, be a niche format akin to LD.

Not doomsaying, but saying wait and see.
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post #38 of 213
6/4/08 at 3:28pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
What is going to happen here is possible consumer confusion...
I agree that that's possible. Hopefully, Blu Ray can pick up some steam this year, become more well known as the high definition format and stop this before it does become a source of confusion for the average consumer.
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post #39 of 213
6/4/08 at 3:32pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

It is absolutely known as the HD format.....

The variable is....is it worth the expense.
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post #40 of 213
6/4/08 at 3:40pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scooter
It is absolutely known as the HD format.....

The variable is....is it worth the expense.
Then if that's the case, Toshiba has quite an uphill battle to fight because they have to convince people that their 'new format' is as good as the Blu Ray discs that they've been hearing about or have seen.

In the end, this probably going to the way of DIVX or those True HD discs (or whatever Warner was going to call the discs with an HD-DVD side and a Blu Ray side), it'll fail before it gets started or fade away without much interest from the average consumer.
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post #41 of 213
6/4/08 at 5:34pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

If this device can upscale better than my HTPC, then count me in. As it is, my HTPC is good enough that I have no itch to go Blu.

While it's true that no 480p format will look better than 1080p, the biggest visible difference between SD and HD for me is color resolution, not picture resolution. If the chip in this device can closely mimic HD color resolution, it's a keeper.

The audio difference won't matter to the public. Most people watch DVD's through their TV speakers. Video quality has always been first and foremost.
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post #42 of 213
6/4/08 at 6:23pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Wouldn't it be ironic if its Sony's own cell processor in a Toshiba product that does the damage?
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post #43 of 213
6/4/08 at 9:06pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I don't see a problem here. It either works well and sells, or fades into quick oblivion like thousands of other "sounds good" products. Market confusion? Name one product category where the manufacturers *don't* purposely create market confusion these days.

Do you know how GPS works? The actual sat signals are well BELOW the noise floor...which means they are pulling good signals out of noise, getting something out of "nothing". Similarly processed pics where they pull a perfectly clear one out of "nothing"? There are methods/algorithms to do this kind of stuff using the footprints of digitally-converted data too, since we know that things in the real/analog world do not change "digitally", they change gradually, and this can be simulated well enough to certainly fool our eyes.

So I guess Toshiba can theoretically do "something" that could look quite good. And that's really what it's about, theory and bit-rate and "facts" be damned. Personally I doubt I would ever buy a Toshiba anything, not impressed with their build quality, I'd rather pay a bit more...but I'm a sucker for fancy signal-processing so I might join their circus just to see.
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post #44 of 213
6/5/08 at 2:19am
Thread Starter 

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

...and what Toshiba is seemingly offering is NOT another HD
format.

All this player is promising to do is turn ordinary DVDs into
something that looks as good as HD. This is the claim, and
it is yet to be seen how well that claim holds up.

It does seem absolutely true that if consumers feel this new
player does such an amazing job with the DVDs they now own
that they will not embrace Blu-ray and it will become a niche
format.
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post #45 of 213
6/5/08 at 6:46am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Don't be so quick to dismiss Toshiba's claims of "as good as HD". Think about this:

1080p is just a number. 1080p does not look any better (or even different) than 720p if you factor in typical display size and viewing distance. Unless you're display is greater than 60" or you sit closer than 8-9 feet, you will not be able to discern the difference between 720p and 1080p.

Say you have a 40" display and sit 12 feet from it. I doubt that there is much perceived visual difference between 480p and 720p. The reall difference is the color -- HD color is much more vibrant and dyamic than SD. If Toshiba's chip can interpolate or even fake this color difference, most people won't see the difference without doing A/B tests or watching test patterns.

If you put your nose against your 60" plasma, you may easily see the difference between 1080p and 480p through the Toshiba player. But 12' away from a 40" display? Not so much.

Don't get too wrapped up in the numbers.
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post #46 of 213
6/5/08 at 7:10am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanson Yoo
Don't be so quick to dismiss Toshiba's claims of "as good as HD". Think about this:

1080p is just a number. 1080p does not look any better (or even different) than 720p if you factor in typical display size and viewing distance. Unless you're display is greater than 60" or you sit closer than 8-9 feet, you will not be able to discern the difference between 720p and 1080p.

Say you have a 40" display and sit 12 feet from it. I doubt that there is much perceived visual difference between 480p and 720p. The reall difference is the color -- HD color is much more vibrant and dyamic than SD. If Toshiba's chip can interpolate or even fake this color difference, most people won't see the difference without doing A/B tests or watching test patterns.

If you put your nose against your 60" plasma, you may easily see the difference between 1080p and 480p through the Toshiba player. But 12' away from a 40" display? Not so much.

Don't get too wrapped up in the numbers.

Well, jeez, i could say the same thing about video tape then. If i wanted to sit 1/2 mile from my TV.
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post #47 of 213
6/5/08 at 7:16am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickER
Well, jeez, i could say the same thing about video tape then. If i wanted to sit 1/2 mile from my TV.
And you'd be correct. But that is not typical viewing distance.
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post #48 of 213
6/5/08 at 8:22am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

this type of technology may slow Blu-ray a bit but I doubt it would be a killer. What if Toshiba put this type of technology WITH Blu-ray. Could they make BD's look even better?
That's where the future is.
SD dvd's just don't have the future that BD has with it's potential interactivity and capacity.
Even if Toshiba came out with a new S-DVD player with more capabilities similar to BD's would the studio's (other than Universal) embrace it? That would mean new authoring techniques, equipment upgrades, testing procedures. If it would add another element into their libraries they are sure to fight it.
Toshiba has to keep it simple and cheap in order for it to be another dvd player with better picture.

BD isn't just better picture than SD...it's a new technology with incredible possibilities over, above and beyond anything SD could ever reach.

BD isn't going to die. It hasn't even got up to speed yet.

Roogs
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post #49 of 213
6/5/08 at 8:39am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I watch a lot of older TV shows on DVD. There is no magic way to make them "High Def". There is absolutely no way to get a "better or equal" picture quality from a 480p source. Except maybe in Marketing land.

All of the current BD players upconvert SD DVDs now so what is new about this toshiba announcement?
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post #50 of 213
6/5/08 at 9:46am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-S
I watch a lot of older TV shows on DVD. There is no magic way to make them "High Def".
It doesn't have to be hi-def, it just has to appear to be hi-def.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-S
There is absolutely no way to get a "better or equal" picture quality from a 480p source. Except maybe in Marketing land.
Again, there are a lot of factors into play, most importantly viewing distance:display size.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-S
All of the current BD players upconvert SD DVDs now so what is new about this toshiba announcement?
A new DSP and alogrhythms. No one outside of Toshiba has seen this thing in action, and it may just be a pipe dream, but it's a bit close-minded to dismiss it out of hand.
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post #51 of 213
6/5/08 at 9:50am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
so what is new about this toshiba announcement?
Oh, there's certainly something new alright.

They say they use a much faster processor, enabling them to do much more computation and they say they're using information from more than 1 image to reconstruct some of the detail missing if you look in 1 frame only. That's totally new.

I don't think it's BS, I just don't believe it will be equal to true 1080x1920 originals.


Cees
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post #52 of 213
6/5/08 at 10:21am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

It probably won't be, but the real question is whether it will be good enough to convince J6P and JWiaB that they don't need BD.
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post #53 of 213
6/5/08 at 10:27am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
It probably won't be, but the real question is whether it will be good enough to convince J6P and JWiaB that they don't need BD.

See the thing is J6P still thinks he is getting HD from DVD, just cause he has an LCD. I am sure they think the cable has magically become HD as well.
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post #54 of 213
6/5/08 at 10:42am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

J6P has a 38" LCD set in his entertainment center and uses TV speakers. Is that Bluray player going to be that much better than his DVD player?
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post #55 of 213
6/5/08 at 11:08am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Whatever "magic" they digitally pull, they will be guessing about what should be there. In essence, they are digitally enhancing it. I thought most here are apposed to digital enhancement.

Also, the extra horsepower to do this magic guessing means more hardware costs. DSP and FPGAs are very expensive. By the time Toshiba had a product on the shelf, BD players will be under $200. So I am not sure thier plan will ever work. Would you pay $189 for a "tru" HD blu-ray picture, or $399 for one that guesses about the missing information?
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post #56 of 213
6/5/08 at 11:18am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
See the thing is J6P still thinks he is getting HD from DVD, just cause he has an LCD. I am sure they think the cable has magically become HD as well.

This is sad but true. I don't know how many times I have heard people say that next Feb all tv will forced by the FCC to be HD. A lot of people don't seem to realise that just because a tv station is "digital" doesn't mean it is HD. Sigh..... It is scary thinking that these are the same people that steer the media growth.

Even my parants who are using Dish network thought that all the channels will be HD next Feb. I think they need to change the TV commercials to make this point more clear.
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post #57 of 213
6/5/08 at 11:24am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hanson Yoo
J6P has a 38" LCD set in his entertainment center and uses TV speakers. Is that Bluray player going to be that much better than his DVD player?

pfftt...No way is it going to be that much better. And thats just the point. To J6P the Toshiba, almost HD player, isnt a big deal. They wont know what they could have, after all, its just TV to him. So, who do you market this to? Not many of us, we want real HD. Now if it upconverts regular DVD better than a Blu-ray player...maybe you got something. But its still not HD. The only thing that limits the size of my TV is money. But, unlike J6P even if i had to buy a Wal-Mart 46" VISIO, at least i would know how to set it up. And no one but us nuts would spend $7000 or more on a Pioneer Plasma ( i know i would if i could!). That brings me back to Blu-ray. I want the best damn picture i can feed it, and i want to be set for the future. So who will they market this too? Us? I doubt it. J6P, he doesnt know any better. Young people? Nah, they want a PS3. Old people. Maybe, but my parents think a DVD player, is a DVD player. What! You can spend $1500 on a DVD player!
By the way, i have a 50" Toshiba Plasma, so i have love for Tosh, just not sure about this thing. Cant say i am closed minded to it, just askin who is it for?
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post #58 of 213
6/5/08 at 11:25am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-S
Whatever "magic" they digitally pull, they will be guessing about what should be there. In essence, they are digitally enhancing it. I thought most here are apposed to digital enhancement.
As a point of reference, no one is throwing away their digital cameras, but 2/3 of the picture information is created digitally. I think what most people oppose are weird artificial enhancements like SVM or high sharpness settings that introduce artifacts into the picture. True interpolation algorhythms are fine -- it's the faked picture enhancements that trick most people into thinking the picture looks better that are frowned upon.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott-S
Also, the extra horsepower to do this magic guessing means more hardware costs. DSP and FPGAs are very expensive. By the time Toshiba had a product on the shelf, BD players will be under $200.
So I am not sure thier plan will ever work. Would you pay $189 for a "tru" HD blu-ray picture, or $399 for one that guesses about the missing information?
If BD players are under $200 at that point, it's because of the pressures from this unit. I believe that the unit is supposed to be much less than a current BD player, so $399 is probably over 100% more than planned. Besides, the buy in cost is negligible to the cost of replacing an entire DVD library.

Like I said, I have no itch for BR because of my HTPC. If an STB can offer even better upscaling, then I'm on that like white on rice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickER
Cant say i am closed minded to it, just askin who is it for?
It's a good question, and what I think this is is a way for Toshiba to get it out there that BR isn't all that and to extend the life of DVD. I think it's also going to marketed as an alternative to BR players if there's still a large price discrepancy between the two. It looks like it's Toshiba's attempt at delaying the adoption of BR, but unless they're willing to back it up with a lavish PR campaign, it looks like a niche product itself.
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post #59 of 213
6/5/08 at 11:27am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
I give this zero chance of going anywhere, because there are only two possibilities:
  1. It upscales existing DVDs, and there is simply no way to add back resolution that isn't there in the first place.
  2. It uses some new form of disc, and there is no way consumers are going to embrace yet another format at this late date in the game.
Sorry, Tosh, but the ship has sailed -- and sunk.

M.

100% agree.
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post #60 of 213
6/5/08 at 11:40am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Seaver
once it's developed, it will likely also wind up in HDTVs (maybe making the digital channels on my cable system look less like complete ass)

If they can pull THAT off then I am ALL FOR IT!!!

As for Joe Sixpack, he can't tell the difference between a $75 upconverting DVD player and Blu-Ray on his TV, so I don't know what a more expensive upconverting deck is going to do for him.
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