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Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer? - Page 7

post #181 of 213
7/9/08 at 8:56am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I wasn't really thinking it would be a combo disk, with two separate versions of the movie on separate sides of the disk.

I was thinking more of a single disk, with a single high-def version, sold as a DVD.

When you put this new super DVD into a player, the picture automatically uncompresses and "downconverts" to the exact resolution of the television it's being output to.

It's not an impossibility -- it's what cable DVRs do.

The player itself can have a permanent hard drive. When you insert the disk, the movie is automatically transferred to the harddrive and uncompressed. When you play the disk, you're actually watching the version that's on the harddrive, uncompressed and high-def.

The resolution will only be limited to the resolution of your television.
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post #182 of 213
7/9/08 at 10:46am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Good luck with the "plays perfectly in all existing DVD players" part.

At any rate, there is no talk of a new disk format. This is a new player that supposedly does a better job of upconverting SD-DVDs than existing upconverting players do. That's all.
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post #183 of 213
7/9/08 at 11:39am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I don't think it's at all clear what this new technology is; just that it will be backwards compatible with existing DVDs and DVD players.

This could be a new kind of disk, that will play in your old player and look like high-def.

Or, it could be a new player that will upconvert old DVDs in a new, better way.

Or it could be both a new player and a new kind of disk.
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post #184 of 213
7/9/08 at 1:19pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Dee I so hope you are wrong in that they are not interested in the technology (DVDs) that we already own. That's what I am most wanting to do--upconvert the many DVDs that I have that I KNOW will never come to Blu-Ray. I have a couple of upconverting players, one an older Sony and a pretty recently purchased Phillips, which does just okay. My sister purchased an OPPO and is very disappointed with its upconversion. We purchased those players (except the Sony) because they could be hacked to region 0, and most of our favorite flicks are Britflicks.

Can't wait to hear more about this new player, and hope it's not just looking at new "superdisks" for its upconversion.
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post #185 of 213
7/9/08 at 2:50pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I just don't think there's too much more we can do with DVDs, the ones we already have. "Upconverting" isn't a very good name for the process — it's really just making the DVDs look as good as possible.

But I definitely believe there could be a new technology applied to the next generation DVDs, which could make the picture and sound better.

Perhaps it's a different compression. Perhaps the DVD will hold a lot more information; obviously, we don't know.

But I think this technology will be applied almost exclusively to future DVDs, not the ones we own already.

They won't give it a name like Super DVD or HD DVD, or any other name but DVD. And everyone will buy them just as they now buy DVDs.

But these new DVDs will have a better picture, and better sound.

That's the only way I think they could kill Blu Ray, which already has a better picture and sound.
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post #186 of 213
7/9/08 at 3:26pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Again, what we're hearing is that the new Tosh players will first mitigate MPEG-2 compression artifacts and then upconvert.

The so-called "Super DVD" --- which may or may not happen --- will supposedly add Blu-ray's interactive features. It will take one of the new Tosh players, of course, to decode the interactive layer. The same DVD will still play just fine on all "regular" DVD players, but the interactive layer will be ignored. It's also rumored that the addition of the interactive layer will provide some additional copy protection to regular DVD.
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post #187 of 213
7/9/08 at 9:03pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

So, just as I imagined, a new kind of player and a new kind of disk.

You'll have to buy at least something from Toshiba to get a better picture.

And I honestly doubt that the new player will make old DVDs look as good as BDs.
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post #188 of 213
7/10/08 at 6:44am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DeeF

And I honestly doubt that the new player will make old DVDs look as good as BDs.

I don't think that anybody seriously believes that this new upconverting process will make DVDs "look as good as BDs". The real question is whether or not it will make DVDs look "good enough" on the average 1080p 42" plasma/LCD flatpanel such that the average consumer-on-the-street doesn't feel a need to upgrade to Blu-ray.

I view my DVDs on a projector so I need Blu-ray. (Or some kind of true HD optical format.) But I'm probably not representative of the average consumer.

I still think that Toshiba would be well served to build a BD deck with this new upconverting circuitry built-in. They could charge a $100 premium for the technology and most of us with large existing DVD libraries will happily pay the additional cost.

But it doesn't appear as though they're "on board" with Blu-ray just yet. *sigh*
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post #189 of 213
7/10/08 at 9:41am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Bolus
The so-called "Super DVD" --- which may or may not happen --- will supposedly add Blu-ray's interactive features. It will take one of the new Tosh players, of course, to decode the interactive layer. The same DVD will still play just fine on all "regular" DVD players, but the interactive layer will be ignored. It's also rumored that the addition of the interactive layer will provide some additional copy protection to regular DVD.

What is your source for this?
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post #190 of 213
7/10/08 at 3:30pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Silverman
What is your source for this?

I read this via a story linked on DIGG.COM. Of course, it's all just speculation at this point.

What's not speculation is that Toshiba has applied for and received a new DVD logo which will presumably be on the new players.

The info on the new logo can be found here:

New Logo From Toshiba Connected To The Blu-ray Killing DVD Player? | TV Snob - TVSnob.com
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post #191 of 213
7/10/08 at 3:48pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

There was a big thread at the High Def Forum today with some screenshots. I don't have a clue how good this new Toshiba process is going to be personally. I think current DVD upscaling technology provides great results and I see many people express opinions that current players make DVD look so good that they won't buy a Blu-ray player. If this is even better, then it might have an impact on Blu-ray adoption, but will only serve to limit the market penetration, Blu-ray is here to stay, it is that good. Blu-ray will be better than DVD no matter what process is used to scale, that much should be clear to everybody. How much better it looks on each individual's display will be the deciding factor. I welcome the new techology if it lives up to the hype but I am pretty heavily invested in standard DVD players, including an Oppo, a Samsung BD-P1200, a Toshiba HD-XA2, a nice Denon and others that work great by today's standards and will sit this techology out for at least several years. I have true HD sources such as Blu-ray, HD DVD, D-VHS, HD DVR's and it will certainly not hurt me to sit out at least once with this silly hobby.

Chris
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post #192 of 213
7/10/08 at 4:39pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Is anyone else having echoes of DPLII? While I haven't seen anything quite that strong in this thread, there was A LOT of vitriol back then following the announcement of DPLII (and DTS Neo), as many felt for some reason that the then-new technology was useless, and "a step backward" and woved to never use it (or even to avoid receivers featuring it.) Some may have felt as thought it threatened discrete 5.1 somehow?

Years later, I think DPLII was a friggin miracle for what it could do with pure 2ch or even DPL sources. It got rid of DPL's unfortunate tendency to collapse everything to the center, and created a big wide soundstage. TV had never sounded better.

So could this thing be to current upconversion as DPLII was to DSPs? I supposed the difference is that while most here wouldn't touch a DSP with a 10ft pole, upconversion is thriving.

I will acknowldge being out of my depth here as I don't own an HD display or upconverting player

--
H
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post #193 of 213
7/10/08 at 8:12pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Perhaps it's simply a way for Toshiba to creatively resell their stockpile of HD-DVD players...
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post #194 of 213
7/10/08 at 9:07pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Or maybe it's something along the lines of HDCD, which manages to squeeze 20 bits of audio information into a standard 16 bit redbook CD by sneaking some meaningful bits into inconspicuous places in the stream.
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post #195 of 213
7/11/08 at 6:08am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

It looks like that the first product with this new tech (now called Resolution+) is a TV (source: German new site Areadvd AREA DVD » IFA: Erste Toshiba LCD-TVs mit CELL-Prozessor)
It is based on a Cell chip.


"Resolution +" image processing depends on the image content and consists of three steps.

Firstly, the picture is divided in several areas, according to three picture categories: "highly detailed", "sharp-edged" and "dark and non-detailed".

Secondly, each of these areas is processed. For "highly detailed" areas, a computing algorithm calculates the finer details. "Sharp-edged" areas are smoothed. Dark areas as well as those that have scarce detail undergo no picture processing in order to avoid unnecessary video noise.

Finally, artifacts that the calculation process may have caused are corrected.

source of translation: Blu-ray Forum - View Single Post - Toshiba upset with Blu-ray questions.
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post #196 of 213
7/13/08 at 5:39am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hartwig Hanser
Firstly, the picture is divided in several areas, according to three picture categories: "highly detailed", "sharp-edged" and "dark and non-detailed".

Secondly, each of these areas is processed. For "highly detailed" areas, a computing algorithm calculates the finer details. "Sharp-edged" areas are smoothed. Dark areas as well as those that have scarce detail undergo no picture processing in order to avoid unnecessary video noise.

Finally, artifacts that the calculation process may have caused are corrected.

If this is true then it doesn't sound particularly exciting - we've had adaptive video processing for some years.
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post #197 of 213
7/13/08 at 6:51am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clinton McClure
Perhaps it's simply a way for Toshiba to creatively resell their stockpile of HD-DVD players...

I can't see how. The players can't be updated to use the process and basically Toshiba is claiming a true HD disc format isn't needed, most consumers will be delighted with their new upscaling process. Either way, it is telling consumers to not buy the players. I also think Toshiba has blown out inventory except what is needed for warranty coverage purposes. We may see a wave of refurbished players come from Toshiba, but it is unlikely much new A stock is left to be blown out.

Chris
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post #198 of 213
7/14/08 at 3:20pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Bolus
I read this via a story linked on DIGG.COM. Of course, it's all just speculation at this point.

Just as I suspected.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joseph Bolus
What's not speculation is that Toshiba has applied for and received a new DVD logo which will presumably be on the new players.

The info on the new logo can be found here:

New Logo From Toshiba Connected To The Blu-ray Killing DVD Player? | TV Snob - TVSnob.com

That doesn't imply a new disc format. It could simply be used for the player technology.
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post #199 of 213
8/18/08 at 12:20pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Well wonder no more.

According to this article (and another one on Video Business) this machine is available for sale today, August 18.

Toshiba Debuts ‘Near-HD’ DVD - 8/18/2008 4:01:00 AM - TWICE

According to their own spokesman, this machine "is not meant to replace, kill or compete with Blu-ray," he said.

I think if its so good, why don't they just make a BluRay with this in it? Or license it for use in other BluRays.

Oh well. Someone going to take the plunge and report back?
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post #200 of 213
8/18/08 at 1:27pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

David,

Already been discussing all of that HERE
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post #201 of 213
8/18/08 at 6:33pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I do not see any format war resurfacing IMHO.

I see one of two things happening:

1. It actually makes a difference in improving SD-DVD viewing and they will sell players with that technology. For consumers that are happy with DVD's and are not looking into getting into Blu-ray any time soon. The technology could very well make them some money.

2. Or Toshiba might end up sideling it if it is not well received by other consumer equipment manufacturers.

But IMHO the format war ended and I do not see it coming back around for round 2. I think that Toshiba would exsperience some seriously backlash if they actually tried to revive the format war somehow.
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post #202 of 213
9/9/08 at 2:21pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Being "Clark Howard" cheap, I personally would welcome any technology that will upconvert my existing DVD collection to better quality - even if it is NOT a "Blu-Ray Killer". I will buy a Blu-Ray player some day, but I will only buy "special" movies - like my favorite concerts or great action flicks in Blu-Ray to take advantage of the higher definition video and audio tracks.
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post #203 of 213
9/26/08 at 11:51am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

A month after its release....

Insert "crickets" sound here.
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post #204 of 213
9/26/08 at 2:18pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Actually, I purchased one of these and am fairly pleased with it.

The 1080p 24hz output mode alone is worth the price of the player if you own a front projection system. (My current front projector is a 720p Optoma HD-65.) This mode vastly reduces "judder" on film-based DVDs. (PLEASE NOTE that I had to put the player in 1080p 24 Hz mode and let my projector downscale that to 720p in order to get the maximum benefit from the player. The "SHARP+COLOR" XDE enhancement modes work best at this setting as well.)

For me, good quality transfer film-based DVDs look *much better* than basic 1080i upscalers on my system. I think it's due to the combination of the judder reduction and the XDE circuitry. Also, CGI films ("Cars", "Madagascar") really look close to hi-def quality.

I'm still purchasing a Blu-ray deck after the format matures a little (and I'm already purchasing select Blu-ray titles); but this deck really does make my DVDs look better than they ever have before. So I'm pretty happy with the thing.
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post #205 of 213
9/26/08 at 11:23pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Joseph, I purchased one as well. I bought this with the intent to take it right back if it didn't deliver on it's promises. My Samsung BDP-1500 was already blowing me away with it's upconversion. I was trying to trim down my equipment rack not add to it. Well, added this player and put my Oppo in the bedroom. Needless to say, I kept the Toshiba and have been impressed by it. It met all my needs. It is NTSC/PAL, can be made region free and has the best upconversion I've personally seen. I really thought more people here were going to buy one and at least try it for their sd dvd libraries. Guess I was way off the mark.
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post #206 of 213
9/27/08 at 1:22am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

There *is* some "weirdness" associated with the player, but it's all minor from my perspective, and may be fixed via a future firmware update:

1. When in any of the XDE modes ("Sharp","Color",Contrast") still frames presented by the player appear "edgy". So FBI Warnings and even static DVD Menus look awful compared to a regular player. As soon as the movie starts, though, everything is fine. The speculation is that the player requires at least two frames off the disc in order to output one in the requested upscaled format.

2. Very occasionally I have experienced some "macroblocking" for a brief moment around "bad" layer changes. (I consider a "bad" layer change as one that is inserted in the middle of a scene.) One time the audio even went out of sync for a few seconds. In every instance that this occurred -- and it's only happened to me twice so far -- I have been unable to reproduce the error. The player would probably be better served by pausing for a brief second during a layer change. *** EDIT *** I probably should mention that the two times I experienced this problem the player was set to output 1080p 60 Hz. I haven't experienced this problem at all at 1080p 24 Hz.

As far as I'm concerned those are very minor annoyances to have to put up with in order to obtain the incredibly satisfying upscaled picture from my old DVDs.
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post #207 of 213
9/27/08 at 2:13am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I've experienced the edgy effect as well. Your explanation was one I hadn't considered so thank you for that. Toshiba has hit onto something here. This technology is incredible. If Toshiba ever does put out a Blu-ray player it needs to incorporate this XDE for sd dvds. I've thrown every kind of crap transfer or lackluster sd dvd I have at it and it does wonders every time. What I notice most is that it adds a depth to the picture. It enhances backgrounds and seems to increase resolution in the foreground as well. Some would say it's edge enhancement, but, there appears to be much more involved then merely that. I do think that edge enhancement plays a part in it. The best way I can describe it is to imagine an out of focus shot being brought into focus. Sd dvds are brought into focus with this player.
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post #208 of 213
9/27/08 at 5:00am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Quote:
Originally Posted by troy evans
Toshiba has hit onto something here. This technology is incredible. If Toshiba ever does put out a Blu-ray player it needs to incorporate this XDE for sd dvds. I've thrown every kind of crap transfer or lackluster sd dvd I have at it and it does wonders every time.

I agree. I fed it some 9 year old DVDs (the oldest in my collection). These DVDs' -- while anamorphically enhanced -- still suffered badly from background mosquito noise and EE "ringing". The mosquito noise was greatly diminished by the player. The "ringing" was still there; in fact it was a smidgen worse. But the overall balance of the picture (black level, contrast, color) was so much better than the resulting picture was still somewhat satisfying. One transfer that the player could *not* help much was the non-anamorphic "True Lies". This transfer was below standard when it was initially released and seems like a complete joke now. But I can't really fault the player for failing to rescue that mess!
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post #209 of 213
9/27/08 at 6:50am

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

Interesting findings.
Quote:
I really thought more people here were going to buy one and at least try it for their sd dvd libraries.
You guys should post about this in the SD area. Here most members will own a BD- (and/or HD DVD) player already and they may be less interested in an additional upconverting SD DVD player.


Cees
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post #210 of 213
9/27/08 at 3:05pm

Re: Is the format war about to resurface? Does Toshiba have the Blu-ray killer?

I wonder if the XDE is doing something akind to "local contrast enhancement" instead of simply standard EE. Sure sounds like it might be doing something like that (besides whatever else):

Tutorials - Local Contrast Enhancement

Still wonder if we might eventually see this show up in a firmware update for the PS3.

For myself, I can't really see buying another DVD player just for this. Maybe if my Denon (non-BD) uni-player dies, but even then, I'd need something that plays SACD well -- that's more important to me than moderately better DVD upconversion/enhancements.

_Man_
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