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*** Official Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull Discussion Thread - Page 3

post #61 of 434
5/26/08 at 11:18am

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Wong
Spielberg doesn't seem to end his sci-fi/fantasy genre films very well any more...Lost World, A.I., Minority Report, War of the Worlds, IJ4 - they all suffered from poor endings...

Joe
I respecfully have to disagree re. A.I., I find its ending anything but poor...

In the words of fellow forumite Rich Malloy in this excellent thread about what I feel is Spielberg's best, and most interesting movie:
Quote:
I would easily concede that David's yearning, his overwhelming desire for the most basic of human needs, is given its most spectacular cinematic rendering in the underwater scene: a mecha, imbued with the most potent of human needs and emotions, shall spend an eternity praying in vain at the alter of the Blue Fairy.

But this wasn't Kubrick's intended ending, and I doubt it's one that would sit well with Spielberg either. And with good reason, I think. While it's an extraordinary visual metaphor for human longing, left unresolved it's merely another nihilistic trope, neither illuminating nor complex. It's a too easy gloss of the human condition. Fortunately, the film goes well beyond the dubious and sophomoric 'depth' of some dark, portentous parable. Kubrick/Spielberg take the narrative several steps further into territory that defies the simplicity of this false ending, but without undermining this extraordinary metaphor of eternal yearning.
Highly recommended thread (and movie ).
I agree about the ending of Minority Report, though.

Re Indy/skulls, I saw it two days ago, and am still thinking about what I liked and not about it. I may need to see it again (can't really wait for the DVD) to make sure. Indy seemed a bit old in the beginning, but he picked up as the movie went on. Cate was fairly cool as the villainess, but not menacing enough. Mac was there for way too long, Karen Allen not enough. Not sure why so many are upset about the particular supernatural things in this movie, as opposed to the others, they have always been about supernatural things, IMHO (and not just mine, even Spielberg himself said so).
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post #62 of 434
5/26/08 at 11:23am

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Did anyone else think the ADR work was horrible, particularly in the opening scenes? At times it didn't even sound like Harrison Ford.
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post #63 of 434
5/26/08 at 11:31am

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

"Well, I can't recall Indy getting in any fisticuffs with Toht either."

Well, there's the big gun battle at Marion's bar. But your point about there being multiple villains for Indy to deal with is well taken.
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post #64 of 434
5/26/08 at 11:36am

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

I'll be the first to admit that there's CG shots that look like CG in this movie (such as Mutt's legs in the jeep chase, the monkeys and the alien) but there are also hundrerds of other CG shots that are phenomenal. When CG works, most people have no clue that they're even seeing a shot that is CG or augmented with CG. I've never seen a movie with hundreds of CG shots where I think every shot looks real and this movie has as good of a success rate with CG as any other.
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post #65 of 434
5/26/08 at 11:53am

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

I know a lot of people think that they filmed the Area 51 stuff early on and maybe Ford was still getting into the role but that's actually not the case- that was all done at least half way into production.
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post #66 of 434
5/26/08 at 11:55am

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Hawley
Not to get into a prequel debate, but I don't feel that's a valid criticism since it could be applied to just about any movie.

Could you say the Death Star battle is a bore just because we all knew Luke would destroy it in the end?

Or what about any action set piece in any Indiana Jones movie. Like we didn't know Indy would survive.

Die Hard movies, boring because we all knew John McClane's gonna save the day and so on.
I do remember my thought process seeing Raiders for the first time, when he gets pitched out of the front window of truck and is spread eagle over the front driver side wheel- " OMG! There is NO way he's getting out of this one!"
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post #67 of 434
5/26/08 at 11:56am

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent M
You didn't notice how Shia's legs extended like Plastic Man when he was straddling the two Jeeps during the swordfight?

I guess not.
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post #68 of 434
5/26/08 at 12:03pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Allred
There isn't a *single* scene in "Crystal Skull" that contains the kind of excitement and fire that the 2 vs 1 lightsaber duel at the end of "TPM" had. Not even close. I say now what I said back then, "TPM" was NOT a great movie but it was saved by that fight. I simply cannot say the same for Indy IV, nothing could save that film from being absolutely mediocre.

My rankings:

Raiders
Doom
Crusade
TPM (lol)

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
Crystall Skull

The lightsaber fight in TPM was cool, but not ultimately not enough to save that movie from sinking.

I'd rank Crystal Skull above TPM and AOTC (which I thought was even worse than TPM) just on the Jar-Jar (Ep.1) and romance (Ep.2) alone. Yes, it was *that* bad.

My Indy rankings would be as follows

1. Raiders

2. Last Crusade
3. Doom

4. Crystal Skull

I liked ToD actually probably the most as a kid and it's very close to TLC for me, but watching it again recently and yeah I notice some of the rough patches of that film a bit more. Still fun though.
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post #69 of 434
5/26/08 at 12:25pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

The Monkey vines scenes had to be the most inane scene ever to grace a Motion Picture screen. Was this George's Idea?
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post #70 of 434
5/26/08 at 12:52pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Mayer
I disagree with MikeRS (though I've only seen it once, and won't see it again on the big screen). The setpiece in the jungle is missing one huge element that each of the biggies in previous films had...something Spielberg is notoriously good for usually. A thematic point.

Raiders: Get the Ark from the Nazis.
Temple: Save the children and get out.
Crusade: Save his father.
Skull: Get away.

I disagree. First of all those other points boil down to getting away too. But I'd say the point of Skulls is to protect the skull. They have to have the skull after this chase, if they lose it, and it did slip out of their hands, then they were screwed.

None of the CG really bothered me in the film, it was scenes themselves as scripted that were the problem.
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post #71 of 434
5/26/08 at 1:19pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Mayer
I won't say nostalgia is clouding any minds, but it certainly is smoothing some normally unforgiveable cinematic sins

Nostalgia cuts both ways, Chuck. It can also make one harder on this film because like all sequels, it is the same but different. The fact that the different is mixed with the same is what creates violent (emotionally-speaking) reactions. So that's the darkside of nostalgia.


And while nostalgia allows folks to be more forgiving of the "unforgivable sins of "Doom" and "Crusade" in retrospect, this episode get's raked over coals in the here and now.


Cuts both ways.....
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post #72 of 434
5/26/08 at 1:22pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Atkins
Did anyone else think the ADR work was horrible, particularly in the opening scenes? At times it didn't even sound like Harrison Ford.

Yeah, on second viewing I noticed. You could tell the ADR whenever Ford sounds like John Wayne. But it doesn't happen too often in the rest of the picture. Just odd few moments.

And I maintain the jungle chase is great fun (Mutt, monkeys, and all), and I foresee it holding up very strongly in the coming years.

It has that sustained velocity that is a Spielberg highlight. Geography and editing are superb. Everyone gets their moment (including the villain). And it's fun, fun, fun

Chuck, to me, although it resembles a the truck chase from Raiders, it plays more (emotionally-speaking) like "the mine cart chase" of the picture. Mine cart chase was just about getting away (the kids were already free). Jungle chase is about getting away from their captors. It signals the end of the middle-exposition stretch, and does it smashingly. At both of my viewings, the audience loved it.

I also had no problem with Indy sharing the spotlight. Indy is still the guy that jumpstarts the chaos. He is the influence even when he is not the specific highlight of a moment.

I also loved this on second viewing.....



"You don't know him....You don't know him....YOU DON'T KNOW HIM...BANG!
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post #73 of 434
5/26/08 at 1:43pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete-D
The lightsaber fight in TPM was cool, but not ultimately not enough to save that movie from sinking.

I'd rank Crystal Skull above TPM and AOTC (which I thought was even worse than TPM) just on the Jar-Jar (Ep.1) and romance (Ep.2) alone. Yes, it was *that* bad.


Nah, Episode I and II at least had some inventive stuff in them that we'd never seen before. There was nothing in Indy IV that was revolutionary or even semi cutting edge for that matter. The action set pieces were flat as a pancake and regardless of what you think about TPM and AOTC they did have their fair share of "WOW" moments. Overall I find those flicks light years ahead of Crystal Skull.
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post #74 of 434
5/26/08 at 1:58pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent M
Nah, Episode I and II at least had some inventive stuff in them that we'd never seen before. There was nothing in Indy IV that was revolutionary or even semi cutting edge for that matter. The action set pieces were flat as a pancake and regardless of what you think about TPM and AOTC they did have their fair share of "WOW" moments. Overall I find those flicks light years ahead of Crystal Skull.

Big thumbs up on that one.
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post #75 of 434
5/26/08 at 2:00pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeRS
"You don't know him....You don't know him....YOU DON'T KNOW HIM... BANG!

I just saw this yesterday, but I don't remember what this is about.
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post #76 of 434
5/26/08 at 2:12pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeRS
Nostalgia cuts both ways, Chuck. It can also make one harder on this film because like all sequels, it is the same but different. The fact that the different is mixed with the same is what creates violent (emotionally-speaking) reactions. So that's the darkside of nostalgia.


And while nostalgia allows folks to be more forgiving of the "unforgivable sins of "Doom" and "Crusade" in retrospect, this episode get's raked over coals in the here and now.


Cuts both ways.....
Sure...but I've already stated my distaste of nostalgia as a salve, and I've already pointed out that I feel LFL piles it on. So nostalgia is playing NO part in my complaints of KotCS None. I liked the film OK for what it was. I am flabbergasted it's getting 80% at RT, but that's not the first time reviewers have shocked me this month. Doom and Crusade were much tighter films with much stronger scripts than this one. You've admitted that as much yourself. You could nitpick all four films, but IV would take a lot longer to complete the list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeRS
And I maintain the jungle chase is great fun (Mutt, monkeys, and all), and I foresee it holding up very strongly in the coming years.

It has that sustained velocity that is a Spielberg highlight. Geography and editing are superb. Everyone gets their moment (including the villain). And it's fun, fun, fun
I am glad you like it, Mike. I don't. I think it's the weakest action sequence in any adventure Spielberg directed. There is no thematic push, absolutely no sense of danger to the leads, and I think the editing is pretty poor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeRS
Chuck, to me, although it resembles a the truck chase from Raiders, it plays more (emotionally-speaking) like "the mine cart chase" of the picture. Mine cart chase was just about getting away (the kids were already free). Jungle chase is about getting away from their captors. It signals the end of the middle-exposition stretch, and does it smashingly. At both of my viewings, the audience loved it.

I also had no problem with Indy sharing the spotlight. Indy is still the guy that jumpstarts the chaos. He is the influence even when he is not the specific highlight of a moment.
I'd argue the mine cart is the second weakest in the Indy films It's not that Indy shares the spotlight. As soon as he fires that RPG, he's never in the spotlight again. The narrative just rolls from that onward, and the main characters (all of them) are rather reactive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeRS
I also loved this on second viewing.....

"You don't know him....You don't know him....YOU DON'T KNOW HIM...BANG!
Greg, that is Mac talking about Indy, trying to warn the Russians how tenacious he is. I liked that as well. It felt Indy.

I thought KotCS did have a wow moment. The nuclear warhead going off, and subsequent chaos was pretty special. This film is almost worth it just for those 5 minutes.
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post #77 of 434
5/26/08 at 2:12pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

nm.
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post #78 of 434
5/26/08 at 2:15pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

The dialogue/acting and even the plot (a trade blockade ... yippie and a "mystery" plot that isn't even resolved properly) for Ep. 1 and 2 is so god awful though I'd say it evens the table considerably.

The only action scene in Ep. 1 or 2 that really blew me away was the Darth Maul fight.

Ep. 2 with all the Jedi running around was kind of lame, like a bunch of action figures come to life rather than an involving, epic battle, it was a bit too CGI-toony.

I think KotCS is kind of the inverse of ToD. Both have serious flaws from the screenplay, but ToD gets a lot of the little details right and makes sure Indy is front and center, while KotCS gets more of the broader details right but fails in getting the smaller details down.

If you've written an Indiana Jones movie that loses track of both Indiana Jones and the main female lead -- you've really done something wrong. As silly and even stupid as Temple of Doom got, it never made that mistake.
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post #79 of 434
5/26/08 at 2:21pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Don't get me started on AOTC. KotCS is Last of the Mohicans compared to that
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post #80 of 434
5/26/08 at 2:31pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Mayer
Don't get me started on AOTC. KotCS is Last of the Mohicans compared to that


Absolutely wrong, but we've had this debate before so there's no point in beating that dead horse.
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post #81 of 434
5/26/08 at 2:56pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeM
Doug, I think you've stared into the skull for too long.

I kid, I kid.


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post #82 of 434
5/26/08 at 3:00pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveF
I've seen no conversation on making sense of the Aliens and the movie's end. Should I give up on this, or is there a logic to it? Though I denjoyed the movie, the ending leaves me wholly perplexed: I can't fathom its internal coherency as I do with Raiders and Crusade.

What I've got is that 5000 years ago there were benevolent, archeologist Aliens that came to South America, taught the the natives how to farm, build crazy-big temples and ground carvings, and -- in their spare time -- collect artifacts from around the world. Which they kept in their South American summer home.

The 13 alien associate professors all died sitting in the control seats of the saucer / temple / boobytrap. There they remain for thousands of years.

Conquistador dude steals one of their skulls -- made of crystal, interestingly enough, with weird latent psychic and magnetic-like powers. The dude dies someplace else and is buried with the skull.

1957, Indiana Jones adventure ensues.

Crystal Skull is returned to its place on its owner's vertebrae, where it now powers up the whole saucer, reincarnates one alien from the skeletons of the 13, opens a wormhole, launches the saucer, kills any remaining inhabitants in the area, and flies home with their treasure trove.

So:

Why did the 13 skeletons transform into a new alien this time, when before they hadn't?

What was the wormhole for? They traveled by saucer, not Stargate.

Why did the benevolent aliens create a launch system guaranteed to kill all the locals?

Why was the alien so pissed off at Irina?

Wouldn't the alien be happy at finally being restored, so it can travel home, yet it seemed terribly annoyed at being woken from its crystalline nap. Just grumpy after an overlong snooze?

I simply can't get my head around this ending. Any help?

I'm not sure if the crystal scull, and the bodies, were the actual aliens or if they were some kind of machines or robots. The alien body on the table in the camp surely didn't have a crystal body.

Doug
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post #83 of 434
5/26/08 at 3:03pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Mayer
Honestly? I think it'd be at 40% at RT, and we'd be on page 3 of this discussion, not page 76. I won't say nostalgia is clouding any minds, but it certainly is smoothing some normally unforgiveable cinematic sins out.

I disagree with MikeRS (though I've only seen it once, and won't see it again on the big screen). The setpiece in the jungle is missing one huge element that each of the biggies in previous films had...something Spielberg is notoriously good for usually. A thematic point.

Raiders: Get the Ark from the Nazis.
Temple: Save the children and get out.
Crusade: Save his father.
Skull: Get away.

As per usual, the first three were proactive. This one was reactive, and I barely remember anything Indy does except for fighting the Russian. I do remember what Mutt does.

I did enjoy the college town chase. Thought it was better than the boat chase from Crusade.

And I loved doomtown. Spielberg was his usual brilliant self there. Though that had little point as well (narratively), it was important to tone, and it had a lot of energy.

Were I to rank these:
Raiders
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
-
Temple
Crusade
-
-
-
Skull

I disagree again. The point of the jungle chase was to get the skull and keep it out of the hands of the commies.

Doug
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post #84 of 434
5/26/08 at 3:04pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent M
You didn't notice how Shia's legs extended like Plastic Man when he was straddling the two Jeeps during the swordfight?

No I really didn't notice that now after having seen it 3 times.

Doug
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post #85 of 434
5/26/08 at 3:06pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Hawley
Not to get into a prequel debate, but I don't feel that's a valid criticism since it could be applied to just about any movie.

Could you say the Death Star battle is a bore just because we all knew Luke would destroy it in the end?

Or what about any action set piece in any Indiana Jones movie. Like we didn't know Indy would survive.

Die Hard movies, boring because we all knew John McClane's gonna save the day and so on.

Frankly my least favorite Star Wars film is Return of the Jedi. I find it almost completely unwatchable.

Doug
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post #86 of 434
5/26/08 at 3:08pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

I think this will be my final say in regards to the Indiana Jones films:

Raiders is perfection. From the screenplay structure, to the dialog; the acting and characterizations are meticulous, and the action sequences are second-to-none. To top it off, the action beats are perfectly spaced apart, with enough "down time" - and meaningful inbetween scenes at that - to give you the sense of anticipation. I love this film.

Temple of Doom's weakness is also its strength - in trying to be different enough from Raiders it feels too off the beaten path. Willie is a great example of this; she's a great idea in that she's the total opposite personality of Marion, but it's so far in that direction that she grates on you. I respect the film more than I enjoy it, per se, because it's so easy to see Spielberg's energy as a director, even when the material is sub par. The last 45 minutes are sensational. The humor is too corny as compared to Raiders, and the improbability of survival factor goes up a notch too far with the plane escape.

Last Crusade is a mixed bag that ends up somehow working in the end despite it. You have a great rapport between Ford and Connery; some of the best humor of the series, even if it is a bit self-referential; and I simply love the set of challenges at the end. Where it comes off as problematic is in the often uninspired direction, less interesting villains (Donovan is dull), and choppy action sequences (plane battle). Despite this, it has enough spirit in the performances and charm to be a success.

Crystal Skull is just "blah". I've stated my reasons with more detail previously, but suffice it to say that I really feel it has the flaws of Temple of Doom and Last Crusade combined - it's too different in tone yet it has familiar surface-level trappings without the depth of the previous films, it has uninspired direction, the humor is too corny, the villains are dull, and the action scenes are choppy at best.

One of my favorite moments in Raiders is right after Indy and Marion have successfully destroyed the plane the Nazis had planned to fly the Ark out on. There's a scene establishing that our heroes are okay, if extremely tired, and they meet up again with Sallah. At this point Sallah mentions that the Ark is now being loaded on to a truck instead, to which Indy gives a look of exhausted determination and blithely responds, "Truck? What truck?" It's the perfect tease. Just as we feel our hero has done everything we'll need to ask of him and can rest, not only does he need to get right back to action, but he doesn't even question it. He just knows that despite his fatigue he needs to get to action, right now. It's also a perfect beat for an action screenplay: give the audience a false sense of an extended breather, and then go on to completely top the great action scene we've just witnessed with another one.

By comparison, KotCS doesn't let you be deceived into a rest. The action just goes on and on and on, and blends into each other. And when it does actually slow down, you get a joke about falling over three waterfalls instead of an actual character building, driving action bit of dialog.

Anyway, I've talked about these films way too much the last few days. What I really need to do is watch Raiders of the Lost Ark again and leave KotCS in the rearviewmirror.
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post #87 of 434
5/26/08 at 3:09pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brent M
We're not discussing Temple of Doom, though. At least I'm not. The fact remains that ILM has done the most seamless CGI work in the history of Hollywood, but parts of the desert chase sequence looked like they were done by a film student on 10 year old equipment. I can't figure out how Lucas and Spielberg could think it looked acceptable.

I had no problem whatever with the CG elements of the chase scene. BTW why do you keep referring to it as a "desert" chase, shouldn't that be "jungle" chase?

Doug
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post #88 of 434
5/26/08 at 3:10pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Jedi's still more than watchable for me.

If the Ewoks were Wookies instead, but behaved exactly the same way otherwise I don't think as many people would have issues with it. It's not like the Ewoks were even that bad ... they're very clearly a nomadic, warrior race that know when to shut up and kick ass (teddy bears don't try and roast you for dinner either). The Jabba scenes do get a little "Muppet-ey" sure, but then you got the whole metal bikini thing going on to balance that out, lol.

Otherwise it's a fairly solid picture, Ian McDiarmid actually manages to outshine the iconic Darth Vader (no small feat), and the action set pieces are probably the best of any Lucasfilm picture (yes Indy films and prequels included). The space battle and forest bike chase are spectacular. The Luke-Emperor-Vader scenes are very dramatic and some of the best in the OT for drama.
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post #89 of 434
5/26/08 at 3:12pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by TravisR
I'll be the first to admit that there's CG shots that look like CG in this movie (such as Mutt's legs in the jeep chase, the monkeys and the alien) but there are also hundrerds of other CG shots that are phenomenal. When CG works, most people have no clue that they're even seeing a shot that is CG or augmented with CG. I've never seen a movie with hundreds of CG shots where I think every shot looks real and this movie has as good of a success rate with CG as any other.

Also frequently when people think they are seeing CG, they are actually looking at a miniature. There are LOTS of miniatures in this film.

Doug
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post #90 of 434
5/26/08 at 3:13pm

Re: Interesting new Indiana Jones 4 news

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikel_Cooperman
The Monkey vines scenes had to be the most inane scene ever to grace a Motion Picture screen. Was this George's Idea?

Why would you assume that? Has Spielberg never put anything silly into a film?

Doug
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