A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray - Page 11

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Which puzzles me even moreso because why those two titles, yet "The Sand Pebbles" looks so great with its detail and fine film grain intact?






Crawdaddy

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Might have been different units with in Fox, or The Sand Pebbles might have been farmed out to an outside company.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Or different people within the same company. During our past HTF Meets in LA, we've been to different companies working on various masters for studios so I know the process, but I hope the studios and the different houses they hired to work on their film elements have standardized their procedures in dealing with HD material.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Let's not forget Fox' previous history in these matters:

The 70mm SE DVD version of Oklahoma! with no detail, The Todd-AO shorts on this same release, also with no detail, the SE DVD version of "The Sound Of Music with significant EE, poor detail, and color fringes, the Star Wars EP 1 DVD with the built in EE force fields. An absolute and stony silence from Fox on these problem titles.

On the other side of the coin, the almost Hidef DVD of "Moulin Rouge" is an absolutely amazing looking DVD, even on a very large screen.

Vern

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

A few weeks ago there was a thread about Mr. Bernstein who worked on The Sand Pebbles. Obviously he didn't do Patton as he was adamant about wanting to preserve grain to conserve the look of the film, he added that Fox was also concerned about that:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...ound-info.html

It seems that whoever did TLD and Patton didn't get the memo

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Great read. I was drawn to this passage:
Maybe Patton and The Longest Day went to China instead?

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Or one might argue that they went to Madame Tussauds to get that waxy look that we all crave

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I have some rather encouraging news to report.

Last evening we had the opportunity to speak with a major
industry publication regarding the "grain" problem. At least
one magazine is now going forward with doing a story on this
issue. Personally, I think this story is going to be a huge help
in making certain that the industry is aware of this problem.

Stay tuned!

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

This is great news and can only help our cause.
In the past there was more than one magazine that frequently would discuss issues relating to film and I am very hopeful that one of them will now run this story.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

LOL! I almost peed myself.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Brilliant and it indeed raises an interesting point - why stop at altering the look of a movie ? Why not recut it and add some CGI and explosions on top - the majority will love it...

That's why it is important to have this general idea and direction in mind with regard to movies on Blu-Ray: The movie has already been made, let's try to make it look and sound as it did when it was first released in high quality movie theaters, within the limits of the medium of course.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I'm not know if this has any relevance to this debate,but I did notice that right at the end of the Blu-Ray of 'Patton' ,there is a slide/caption for 'Panasonic Blu-Ray authoring which is based in Hollywood. Panasonic have a deal/relationship to transfer and master and author some of Fox Home video Blu-Ray release's.

ABOUT PANASONIC HOLLYWOOD
"The Panasonic Hollywood Laboratory (PHL) is a video research lab located in Universal City, California.
As part of Panasonic’s Blu-ray standardization efforts, PHL has played an essential role in developing high-definition data compression technologies (required to fit feature length movies onto a Blu-ray disc) jointly with studio engineers while actively meeting the needs of filmmakers.
With the sensitivity of directors and colorists who produce images of the highest quality worldwide, PHL applies special care to each and every scene when utilizing Panasonic's cutting-edge compression technologies.
Hollywood professionals all share a strong concern about their movies in the marketplace, a concern that stems from the creative efforts that they pour into the movies during production. In short, they want to be sure that people at home are able to enjoy the same colors, expressivity, and emotional feelings that they would experience in a movie theater, without compromising their intellectual property".

The reason I mention this , is because the transfer of 'Sand Pebbles' which is widely acknowledged to be an accurate looking disc has been handled by 'Deluxe Digital'
ABOUT DELUXE DIGITAL STUDIOS
A division of Deluxe, Deluxe Digital Studios is the largest home entertainment authoring and related service company in the world. The company staffs over 600 full-time employees, over 2,000 contract language translators, and operates 6 worldwide locations: Burbank, Moosic (Pennsylvania), Montreal, London, Florence, and Bangalore. Services include bonus material development (including producer services, camera work, audio and commentary recording, green screen photography, editing and game creation), menu interface design and language localization, censorship editing and duplication, subtitling in over 50 languages, video compression, audio encoding, authoring, check disc creation, disc replication and testing services. Supported product lines include DVD, HD DVD, Blu-ray, PSP and various electronic delivery formats. Deluxe is a wholly owned subsidiary of MacAndrews & Forbes Holdings Inc

.It would be of interest to find out if 'The Longest Day' has the same Panasonic credit at the end.This could explain why there is a different feel and look to disc's from the same studio.Fox are the client in this situation.

PHOTOGRAPHY OF PATTON
The field of view of the D-150 prime lens is amply demonstrated in a chapel scene where
Patton is seen in prayer just prior to the moment when he apologizes to his troops for the slapping
incident. This was done in the medieval chapel at La Granda castle. The ceiling is perhaps sixty-
five to seventy feet high and is covered with beautiful religious frescoes. The camera points
straight up, directly at the ceiling, and very slowly pans over the fresco. "I used the little AP-65
with the 18mm 150-degree lens for this shot," says Koenekamp. "This is the widest lens in the D-
150 family so there was a little distortion as we panned, but I think it worked out all right."
FILM RESTORATION INFO
There were simply no 70mm prints of “Patton” left anywhere in the world, which did not suffer from severe color dye fading or were not in the advance stages of deterioration. There was never any doubt that any restoration of the film would have to be conducted in its original large format.
The 65mm original camera negative was inspected and printed at Consolidated Film Industries (or CFI) in Hollywood, CA. Thankfully; the negative was in remarkably good shape. The other elements of the film, the English subtitle elements used to translate the German and the original soundtrack mix master, did not fare so well.
The original 35mm 6-track magnetic mix master was deteriorating badly. The audio engineers at Chace Productions in Burbank, CA meticulously transferred the deteriorating elements and made sure every nuance of the track was accurately captured. Some digital cleanup was required to erase the defects, which had been introduced by time and wear on the element, but the key effort was to preserve the track as is. No re-mixing or alteration of the track took place. Instead, every effort was made to capture the original achievement of the filmmakers Don J. Bassman and Douglas Williams who also won Academy Awards for Sound. This print contains a 70mm DTS track which not only replicates the original mix but the original speaker configuration which was in use at the time of “Patton”'s original release.
70mm.com

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

i noticed the panansonic too, i'll hae to grab the longest day from the BBV to check

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I forgot to answer this the other day, yes, "The Longest Day" was done by Panasonic just like "Patton", but unlike "The Sand Pebbles" which had Deluxe.





Crawdaddy

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

maybe panasonic is the problem.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

What about the other discs they released that week, Battle Of Britan & A Bridge Too Far, who did them? I got a copy of Battle Of Britan and it looked like they proably removed a bit of grain but didn't get too much detail. I've read several reviews of A Bridge Too Far that described is similarly.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Rachael,
I felt both discs had their fine film grain intact and both of them were done by Deluxe.





Crawdaddy

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Thanks for the info Crawdaddy. I'm pretty satisfied with Battle Of Britan. I stille thought that the amount of grain looked suspiciously low but the detail was quite good. I'd like to snag Sand Pebbles when I see it on sale.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

UPDATE

As I reported earlier, Fox sent me a copy of Patton to watch and evaluate.

This is a bad week for me to sit and watch a 170 minute film. I
am still finishing up coverage on EMA that is going live this afternoon.

However, I was curious. So, for the past 30 minutes I found myself
watching the first 15 minutes of Patton and then skipping
around to various scenes. I do plan on watching this movie in its
entirety within the next few weeks, but I did feel a commitment to
Fox to get them an answer about what I had seen.

I must admit up front that I have never seen any film from this
era look as perfect as Patton does. Watching the first scene
as Patton gives his speech in front of the American flag, followed
by a sequence in Morocco where Patton is receiving a decoration had
my mouth hanging wide open with amazement.

This was the most beautiful transfer I had ever laid my eyes upon.
It was completely, undeniably flawless in every respect.

....and that is where I realized the problem....

The film had an "oddity" about it. It didn't look normal. I mean,
I have seen many films from the early '70s. I know the horror stories
about the Eastman movie film stock used during this era, and perhaps
Patton doesn't apply in this case --- but I do know that all
these films should be showing a visible amount of grain.

As gorgeous as Patton looks -- and I go on record saying it
is brilliantly gorgeous -- it doesn't look at all natural.

To best describe what I am seeing is something that was shot
directly to digital. Someone described it to me as looking like a
video game. I have to agree with that assessment. The picture is
so smooth and void of any grain or background anomaly that it
takes on the look of CGI. It just looks totally unnatural for something
released during an era where you know there was film grain.

The problem is, the common viewer is going to look at Patton
and rave about how fucking good the picture looks. I mean, this
is a candy store quality transfer here. I am impressed at what this
film could look like if you remove any background distractions.

On the other hand, as someone who knows better, watching this
film was an "odd" experience knowing that what I was viewing was
not the way the film probably looked back in 1970. In fact, audiences
weren't "wowed" by this type of transfer until around the time Toy Story was
released as a direct digital to DVD transfer.

I'm not the most educated person in the world about what a film
like this should look like, but I can tell you that it certainly didn't
look like anything I would assume audiences experienced nearly 40 years ago.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Yes, a couple more turns on the DNR dial and General Patton can fit right into Linklater's Waking Life or A Scanner Darkly.

Or maybe sing back-up in A-ha's "Take On Me" video.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Gorgeous? Maybe gorgeous for an animated feature. The problem is that neither Patton nor The Longest Day are animated features. The BD releases just look like they are. Unfortunately, I fear that you may have unwittingly just validated the studio's practice of remaking a film image into a video game image.

Vern

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Sorry to go partially off-topic, but has anyone been able to skip past that stupid Francis Ford Copolla yak-yak-yak at the beginning of Patton? I want to go straight to the flag scene. Normally I can go into the "scenes menu" and pick scene one, but this doesn't work with the BRD version of Patton.

I'm using a BR v. 1.1 compatible Magnavox deck.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

it didnt play when i watched it.

as far as i could tell it's selected from the features menu.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Oh great. It plays automatically on my system.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Interesting. Panasonic seemed to be a commonality, but I was not ready to place the blame on them. Commonality or correlation is a long way from causality. So I guess that the cause of the problems is still a mystery. That is too bad.

And let me echo the above with my own wishes of a happy 4th to all.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Robert, doesn't the U.K. celebrate getting rid of us...? If they don't, they should! Have a happy holiday mi hombre!