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A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray - Page 10

post #271 of 495
6/19/08 at 2:55am

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Savant has made mistakes beforehand regarding PQ issues with the dvd presentations.
Crawdaddy

Exactly.

Lots of times I like what he has to say about the content of a movie or the extras provided as it is fun reading even if I do not agree. With regard to the PQ reviews I prefer not to read them as he is not very discriminating to put it nicely.
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post #272 of 495
6/19/08 at 5:24am

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrf2
DVD Talk Review: Patton (Blu-ray)

Another review praising the video transfer. He even says this:

"But I've seen Patton at least twenty times, and this Blu-ray is the closest I've gotten to that first 70mm experience.
Glenn's a good guy and has been in the biz a while. He may be entirely correct if he's only seen Patton on home video since his 70mm experience. I still maintain that as flawed as this release is, it's the best Patton has looked on home video and the only version I can stand to see on a 92 in screen.

But I understand and empathize with the other opinions voiced here.
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post #273 of 495
6/19/08 at 3:17pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Rats. My projector broke down last night so I couldn't see my BRD copy of Patton.

Right now I feel like going over and going all Patton on Optoma: twist them by the ***** and kick the living **** out of them.
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post #274 of 495
6/19/08 at 4:45pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

If you're quoting the movie, it would actually be:

"We're going to cut out their living guts and use them to grease the treads of our tanks."

Or:

"We're going to hang on to them by the nose, and we're going to kick them in the ass. We're going to kick the hell out of them all the time, and we're going to go through them like crap through a goose."

Sorry, I grew up on "Patton" since it was my dad's favorite movie (partially because my grandfather was in Patton's Third Army).
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post #275 of 495
6/19/08 at 5:11pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

He is quoting from Patton's unexpurgated speech. The movie version is quite a bit less "blue" than the actual speech.
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post #276 of 495
6/19/08 at 6:22pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Mike, please see the link in my post #267 above. In the film version, we were going to hold onto them by the nose: in the actual speech we were going to hold onto them by a more delicate part of the male anatomy - and twist them.

I'd always liked to have been a fly on the wall in the conference between the screenwriters and the censors for Patton. It's too bad George C. Scott didn't perform a "second take" with the real version of the speech. He must have known that someday the movie industry would permit it. It would have been a great "alternate version" for use with seamless branching.
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post #277 of 495
6/20/08 at 7:35pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

i havent seen the movie in years and had forgotten some of it, but holy crap a tank just ran over a guy 45 minutes into the film and barley missed rolling over his head.

anyway it is hard not to notice the look of the disc and be dissapointed.

everything just looks flat, no depth of field.
the roundness of objects such as heads and helmets just isnt there.
no dimensionality

just a shame.
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post #278 of 495
6/22/08 at 11:54am

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

What demographic are studios playing to, when they dumb-down catalogue titles? When the format is being promoted, they're going to use the most pristine, latest crowd pleasing titles, most probably from a digital source anyway.

The catalogue titles are never going to fly off the shelves. They are mostly bought by diehards like us, who've already bought them a couple of times. Pandering to the "lowest common denominator" is an absurd course of action. The ones who grouse about grain, are likely the same ones who groused about "those black bars". By definition, they're not enthusiasts. They lack a passionate interest in the issue, and therefore will grow accustomed, over time, to what is and isn't possible with older movies, even in hi-def.

On the other hand, studios should know that the likes of us, will never, ever let this dog lie quietly. And in this online world, we can raise one hell of a racket. Before long, it's simply "out there", that it's a bad release due to all the chatter; it becomes one of those "they say" issues, even among those who don't have a clue.

Add to the dynamic, that percentage of the general public who will instinctively know that "something" is off, even if they're not able to articulate the specifics. The general public are not all stupid. There are bound to be about as many of this type of viewer, as there are vocal grain-haters. You know...the kind who read-up, and might eventually join our ranks on this and other forums.

So, again: who the hell are they playing to? Do these egg-heads actually expect 'Patton' or most any other catalogue title to start flying off the shelf at the local Wal-Mart?

Seems to me, they're investing far more time, energy and MONEY in this absurd course of action, than would be required to help educate the general public as to what can be expected from older titles. Other members have suggested that inserts should be added. That would be a start in the right direction.

In any event, the studios should know from past experience that WE will not shut-up. The general public got more or less used to black bars. The general public will get more or less over their allergic reaction to grain.
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post #279 of 495
6/22/08 at 1:56pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Wilkins
What demographic are studios playing to, when they dumb-down catalogue titles? When the format is being promoted, they're going to use the most pristine, latest crowd pleasing titles, most probably from a digital source anyway.

The catalogue titles are never going to fly off the shelves. They are mostly bought by diehards like us, who've already bought them a couple of times. Pandering to the "lowest common denominator" is an absurd course of action. The ones who grouse about grain, are likely the same ones who groused about "those black bars". By definition, they're not enthusiasts. They lack a passionate interest in the issue, and therefore will grow accustomed, over time, to what is and isn't possible with older movies, even in hi-def.

On the other hand, studios should know that the likes of us, will never, ever let this dog lie quietly. And in this online world, we can raise one hell of a racket. Before long, it's simply "out there", that it's a bad release due to all the chatter; it becomes one of those "they say" issues, even among those who don't have a clue.

Add to the dynamic, that percentage of the general public who will instinctively know that "something" is off, even if they're not able to articulate the specifics. The general public are not all stupid. There are bound to be about as many of this type of viewer, as there are vocal grain-haters. You know...the kind who read-up, and might eventually join our ranks on this and other forums.

So, again: who the hell are they playing to? Do these egg-heads actually expect 'Patton' or most any other catalogue title to start flying off the shelf at the local Wal-Mart?

Seems to me, they're investing far more time, energy and MONEY in this absurd course of action, than would be required to help educate the general public as to what can be expected from older titles. Other members have suggested that inserts should be added. That would be a start in the right direction.

In any event, the studios should know from past experience that WE will not shut-up. The general public got more or less used to black bars. The general public will get more or less over their allergic reaction to grain.


I hate to say it but the demographic they are playing to is an install base for whom 90% are game system owners. I think that speaks for its self.

Doug
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post #280 of 495
6/22/08 at 2:04pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I hate to say it but the demographic they are playing to is an install base for whom 90% are game system owners. I think that speaks for its self.

Doug
I don't think that's the case now. They can't expand their market penetration to mass market just playing to that demographic. More profitability will be achieve by increased sales across multiple demographics and frankly, the studios need this influx of cash.
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post #281 of 495
6/22/08 at 2:28pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
I don't think that's the case now. They can't expand their market penetration to mass market just playing to that demographic. More profitability will be achieve by increased sales across multiple demographics and frankly, the studios need this influx of cash.

Well I agree with you there, but the fact of the matter is that 90% of the install base at this moment is a game system. That IS the demographic at the moment. I didn't say that this strategy was smart, just that it seems to be the market they are playing too.

Now to be fair I see some more classics coming from Warner who knows how to present classics and for that I'm very excited.

Doug
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post #282 of 495
6/22/08 at 2:45pm
Thread Starter 

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Catalog titles, when important, and handled with care, are fully capable of "flying off the shelves."

In regard to Warner, with Mr. Feltenstein in place, we're in for an exciting ride with Blu.
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post #283 of 495
6/22/08 at 3:31pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Well I agree with you there, but the fact of the matter is that 90% of the install base at this moment is a game system. That IS the demographic at the moment. I didn't say that this strategy was smart, just that it seems to be the market they are playing too.

Now to be fair I see some more classics coming from Warner who knows how to present classics and for that I'm very excited.

Doug
Again, I disagree, I don't think the studios are playing to that demographic alone.
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post #284 of 495
6/22/08 at 3:33pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
Catalog titles, when important, and handled with care, are fully capable of "flying off the shelves."

In regard to Warner, with Mr. Feltenstein is in place, we're in for an exciting ride with Blu.

You are correct. Some of my remarks tend to be a bit splashy and absolutist.

Still, the populist hi-def mentality, if such a thing exists, seems to lean heavily toward newer, noisier, contemporary action films...even computer driven animation, than back toward catalogue titles.

I imagine that BD equivalents of many of the splendid special editions on SD, will do very well. I'm salivating over the prospect of 'Amadeus', as are many other people, no doubt. That enthusiasm can be multiplied by many, many titles.

Casting aside for the moment, the perennial 'Star Wars' and 'Indiana Jones' crowd, it would seem that the catalogue title appreciators tend to be a more thoughtful, film loving crowd, less prone to spewing about grain.

We can only hope that some of these current misguided choices are being driven by marketing department considerations that are out of step with the bigger picture, and that sooner rather than later, better judgement will prevail. Of course, they'll need our polite but firm influence.
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post #285 of 495
6/22/08 at 7:32pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
I hate to say it but the demographic they are playing to is an install base for whom 90% are game system owners. I think that speaks for its self.



This ardent cinephile who loves classics and natural film grain happens to be part of that 90%.

These red-herring "game system" consumer stereotypes were laid to rest during the format war. The continue to rest. The fact that the PS3 has been the best selling BD player for movie playback in the last six months has more to say about its low cost, ability to decode DTS-HD MA to PCM, and profile 2.0 with full support for BD Live than it does about a game-playing cohort.
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post #286 of 495
6/23/08 at 1:41am

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Well, I suppose that while we're conducting a confessional, I'll fess up, and admit to being the owner of an Xbox 360. But...I never owned the HD add-on player, honest!

I'm a good little cinefile. You can ask my mother.
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post #287 of 495
6/23/08 at 1:42am

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet


This ardent cinephile who loves classics and natural film grain happens to be part of that 90%.

These red-herring "game system" consumer stereotypes were laid to rest during the format war. The continue to rest. The fact that the PS3 has been the best selling BD player for movie playback in the last six months has more to say about its low cost, ability to decode DTS-HD MA to PCM, and profile 2.0 with full support for BD Live than it does about a game-playing cohort.

I happen to be also David. I'm shooting everything in high def now and its the only system at the moment on which I can play high def windows media files. This allows me to check color corrections and other things on a large full 1080p monitor. The fact that I can throw them on to a USB flash drive and play them is an added bonus. This makes doing tests a breeze and frankly other than a minor hand shake issue with my monitor, I love the PS3 as a blu-ray player.

None of that changes the fact that the vast majority of the people who bought PS3s did so to play games first and play blu-rays second, if at all. At this point blu-ray disc sales are no where near where they should be if all 6 or 7 million PS3 owners were using them to watch blu-rays.

This is the demographic that reads the ridiculous tier system threads to find out what eye candy they should buy to show off their systems. Its funny if you look at those tier systems almost all of them have the majority the top 10 films as computer generated animated films. These people have no idea what a movie on film is supposed to look like.

Doug
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post #288 of 495
6/23/08 at 4:04am

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Doug,

while I agree that your arguments are reasonable we should rejoice in the fact that the very company who brought us the PS3 also brings us the best Blu-Ray transfers that are very film-like. So if Sony can do it every other studio can do it, too.

Let's not stop to fight the good fight, so far we have gotten a lot of very good and not so many bad transfers which is encouraging.

Oliver
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post #289 of 495
6/23/08 at 12:38pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by OliverK
Doug,

while I agree that your arguments are reasonable we should rejoice in the fact that the very company who brought us the PS3 also brings us the best Blu-Ray transfers that are very film-like. So if Sony can do it every other studio can do it, too.

Let's not stop to fight the good fight, so far we have gotten a lot of very good and not so many bad transfers which is encouraging.

Oliver

I have no argument with Sony. They have been doing a very nice job with their blu-ray releases. A Passage to India is a wonderful looking disc. I do wish they were a little more aggressive with releasing classics, but they are clearly ahead of some other studios.

Doug
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post #290 of 495
6/23/08 at 2:53pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Here is the Mike Clark's article from USA Today. I usually agree with Clark about film opinion, but in this case, I must disagree with him on more than a few issues.

Blu-ray watch

June's Blu-ray lineup already includes four goldies with Oscar nominations for cinematography, and naming them in order of preference as movies, my list would go: The Sand Pebbles (1966, Fox, unrated, $40); Patton (1970, Fox, PG, $40); The Longest Day (1962, Fox, unrated, $40); and The Professionals (1966, Sony, unrated, $29). Speaking objectively, of course, Patton is best of the four because Pebbles' narrative about unwanted American gunboats patrolling 1926 China can be heavy-handed. So the trade-off is Steve McQueen's greatest performance and a movie politically ahead of its time in Sand Pebbles for the chilly craftsmanship of Patton director Franklin J. Schaffner (which didn't result in many good films).

But 70mm Patton was still superbly served by Schaffner and looks the best of this bunch: It was shot in Dimension 150 (advanced for the day, the process was basically Todd A-O with bells and whistles), and the colors are crisp. The other movies look impressive for their age. Pebbles gave underrated cinematographer Joe MacDonald, a film noir specialist, a chance to snake around awesomely inside its boat's belly, while The Longest Day, an Oscar winner for cinematography, affirms that a black-and-white movie can pass the stringent Blu-ray test.

The Professionals' palette is more limited by its preponderance of brownish clay/dirt backgrounds but still qualifies as a landmark in the career of cinematographer Conrad L Hall (later of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid). Richard Brooks' Oscar nominations for this rugged Western's script and direction remains a stretch, but there's still a quality "guy" cast: Burt Lancaster, Lee Marvin, Robert Ryan, Jack Palance, Woody Strode and Claudia Cardinale. She's no guy, but no guy has ever minded.



New on DVD: 'Be Kind' to this week's releases | thenewsstar.com | The News Star
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post #291 of 495
6/25/08 at 12:34pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Is Fox in denial or does the left hand just not know what the right hand is doing?

DVDFILE.com

Quote:
DNR

More important for me at the Fox demo was the opportunity to discuss the Internet buzz concerning the allegations that Fox applied excessive digital noise reduction (DNR) when it prepared Patton for release on Blu-ray Disc. I asked Senior Vice President of Corporate & Marketing Communications Steve Feldstein about this controversy that’s making the rounds of the forums. He immediately text-messaged the people responsible for the transfer and within minutes he was called. I’m told that the transfer was derived from highly revealing, low grain 70 mm source elements and that no grain removal was applied.


Doug
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post #292 of 495
6/25/08 at 12:39pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

That's the bo-bo I wrote a letter to. He should be getting it about now.....not the point, apparently, but the letter.
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post #293 of 495
6/25/08 at 12:48pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Is Fox in denial or does the left hand just not know what the right hand is doing?

DVDFILE.com




Doug
It's entirely possible that higher ups weren't aware of this issue. However, they have been informed now of it.





Crawdaddy
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post #294 of 495
6/25/08 at 1:03pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
It's entirely possible that higher ups weren't aware of this issue. However, they have been informed now of it.





Crawdaddy

Yes but the people in the trenches are telling the higher ups that no grain removal was applied to Patton. At least according to the story in the link.

Doug
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post #295 of 495
6/25/08 at 1:09pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Yes but the people in the trenches are telling the higher ups that no grain removal was applied to Patton. At least according to the story in the link.

Doug
Do you really think that response is going to be the end of it? I don't despite their denial because something was used and this issue won't go away unless they stop doing whatever they're doing to certain masters.
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post #296 of 495
6/25/08 at 1:12pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Is Fox in denial or does the left hand just not know what the right hand is doing?

Probably both. Fox has never owned up to quite a few DVD issues... the infamous Moulin-Rogue DTS lip-sync error being one example.

However, regardless of what their public statment ends up being, rest assured that with voices like HTF, Bill at the bits, RAH, and even Dan Ramer making their voices heard, the "higher ups" will indeed get the message.
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post #297 of 495
6/25/08 at 1:15pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I was standing next to Dan Ramer during his discussion with Steve.

As I discussed in another thread, the response was of surprise
and denial. Steve was text messaging his people, and it appeared
that he had no idea this was done to one of his titles.

I informed Steve that the discussion on our forum concerning
Patton was running rampant and that the issue should be addressed.
He is sending Dan and I copies of the film to check out for ourselves.
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post #298 of 495
6/25/08 at 1:42pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Do you really think that response is going to be the end of it? I don't despite their denial because something was used and this issue won't go away unless they stop doing whatever they're doing to certain masters.

I sure HOPE it isn't the end of it.
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post #299 of 495
6/25/08 at 1:44pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Epstein
I was standing next to Dan Ramer during his discussion with Steve.

As I discussed in another thread, the response was of surprise
and denial. Steve was text messaging his people, and it appeared
that he had no idea this was done to one of his titles.

I informed Steve that the discussion on our forum concerning
Patton was running rampant and that the issue should be addressed.
He is sending Dan and I copies of the film to check out for ourselves.

Well its good to hear. If that is the case it sounds like this whole thing might have been a mistake. That would be reassuring.

Doug
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post #300 of 495
6/25/08 at 1:51pm

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

They deny all day. The truth is here in front of our eyes and none other than Robert Harris is leading the charge. Will FOX call him a liar?
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