A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray - Page 8

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

These two caps of the 2001 and 2006 SD releases illustrate the problem somewhat:

Karl Malden as human:


Karl Malden as wax figure:


Caps courtesy of DVDBeaver. More caps here: Patton George C. Scott Karl Malden

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I think you're confusing what the people in the video department are doing with the filmmaker. Are the people in the Fox or Disney or Paramount video departments the Filmmakers? Sorry, but I do NOT equate some know-nothing video tech mastering Patton with Franklin J. Schaffner. Also, grain reduction on a DVD may have more to do with the compression limitations of that medium than anything else. Blu-ray can handle grain without problems.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Robert Rodriguez and George Lucas are filmmakers.

Danny_N, that second picture of Karl Malden is also blurred beyond anything representing the actual BD release.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

And you haven't shown that they prefer digital because they hate grain or shown that grain reduction in DVDs isn't due to technical limitations.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

RobertR, I don't have to. Grain doesn't have to be reduced due to technical limitations. There are numerous DVDs that have been released with grain intact and their results are quite beautiful.

I'm not saying that no grain is THE reason Lucas and Rodriguez prefer to work in digital. The fact is, they prefer the digital medium because it gives them more options when working with CGI. But you can look to the fact that all of Lucas' films aside from American Graffiti have had their grain removed, and it wasn't by accident.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Yes, I'm well aware that video techs (who are not filmmakers) don't remove grain by accident. Grain reduction makes the compressionist's job easier, even if it's not absolutely necessary, and I can easily see it being done for that reason, not because anyone who made the film thought grain was "evil".

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

RobertR, Lucas had the grain removed, not some tech. "Some techs" don't hire Lowry to remove grain. The people paying the bills do. You're now only being argumentative for the sake of arguing. My conversation with you is now over.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

"The people paying the bills" aren't necessarily the filmmakers.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Lucas's films have NOT had the grain removed. Lowry removed dirt and dust, and corrected a fading image, I've read nothing that said they did grain removal.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I shoot digitally because of cost and immediacy. That and the fact that I don't have to deal with a lab. I generally add grain to my digital footage. I would really tick me off if someone just decided it shouldn't be there and removed it when I went to all the trouble of adding it.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

RobertR, thank you for proving my point about being argumentative for no other reason than the sake of arguing. LUCAS pays the bills. LUCAS is the filmmaker.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Doug, there are numerous threads of both praise and complaints about the lack of grain in the Indy films and Star Wars trilogy.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Lucas is the exception. How many other filmmakers who "pay the bills" can you name?

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Threads on a message board are not evidence of grain removal. And SD resolution isn't really high enough to be able to tell accurately if the grain of a modern anamorphic full frame 35mm film has been removed or not.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Doug, if grain isn't there, it isn't there. Grain is very visible on a SD DVD, and when it is no longer visible, it's because it is no longer there.

As for whether threads on a message board are evidence of grain removal, that would actually depend on WHO is contributing to the message boards.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Wow, based on those two screenshots above even the SD DVDs show a big difference in terms of detail.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

DaveH, are you implying that the BD doesn't show as much detail as the SD DVDs above? Or are you simply saying that the two DVDs show a big difference between each other. It should be noted that while the 2006 CE with the blurred face of Karl Malden was way too soft, the above photo from the original DVD release used Edge Enhancement to simulate more detail and sharpness that wasn't really there.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

It has been stated over and over again, in more threads than can be counted, that screen shots are inconclusive and prove nothing; there are too many variables and limitations, yet people insist on using them over and over again to establish their argument.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

When the screenshots are made under the same conditions except for the exchange of one dvd for another they can show some differences between for example two NTSC DVDs of Patton.

But this is not really that important as now we have the ability to get captures directly from the discs that are much more telling.
While not a substitute for watching moving images captures are pretty good to show how a title performs with regard to edge enhancement, high frequency information and other parameters, although I find it lacking with regard to showing the full extant to which for example noise reduction changes moving pictures.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

No.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Thanks Michel. That's what I was looking for.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

It looks like DNR/grain removal is going to be the big battle for Blu-ray much like OAR was for DVD. After viewing Twister on BD this weekend, I'm ready to fight for the cause. I can't stand the DNR look.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Again it depends on the source material. Yes Aliens with its cropped 1.85:1 aspect ratio and using a very new high speed film stock looks VERY grainy on SD video. Star Wars however using a moderately slow speed stock, and utilizing the entire academy aperture frame and very solid exposure levels, is really not going to be visible at the resolution of SD video. The only time that grain might be visable under those conditions would be if the lab did a bad job of processing the film, or they were asked to push the exposure 1 or 2 stops. Not the case with the Star Wars films or Raiders of the Lost Ark.

There are several occasions in Temple of Doom, particularly in the darker scenes where grain is visible. I suspect they were using a higher speed film stock for these sequences.

As to Last Crusade, I saw it in a theater where just 3 days before had been showing Lawrence of Arabia in 70mm. I was astonished at how favorably the 35mm anamorphic photography looked in comparison to the 65mm. It didn't have quite the level of detail, but it was clear evidence of how far the filmstocks had come. The grain was VERY fine.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Mike, I'm saying that just based on those DVD screenshots (which I know can be meaningless), the 2001 version look looks better without the DNR. It appears to have more detail, but I didn't look close enough to see if it was just EE giving the appearance.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

With this in mind, I was wondering if the HTF had any objection to the creation of a stickied 'buyer beware' thread here that could serve to educate both on the DNR issue and those titles affected by it? Thoughts?

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

DaveH, there is a long thread somewhere in this and other forums regarding the differences between the 2001 DVD and the 2006 CE. The 2006 is way too soft and yet the colors are far more vibrant. I had thought the BD was going to be the final response, taking care of both the colors AND the sharpness. But now we have the DNR problem. I wish the studios would just do the films correctly and let the public come on up.

I have friends who swear they cannot see the difference between HD and DVD images. Do you know what else they do not see and thus, are not bothered by? Film grain.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Whatever reasonable efforts HTF can undertake to raise awareness of this issue with both buyers and the studios is welcome as far as I'm concerned.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I just got this adress off a thread about Longest Day over at AVS.

Steve Feldstein
20th Century Fox Entertainment
2121 Avenue Of The Stars, 10th Floor
Los angeles, CA 90067

Be sure to use plenty of profaintity and threats, NOT! Also, anthrax and letter bombs are not allowed. Myself, I'll also be voicing my displeasure with DTS Master audio that's riddled with problems even with my so-called compatiable equipment.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Rachael, you're having problems with DTS Master audio with your "Patton" title or something else? What problems are you having exactly, because I have watched the movie twice already since getting it Friday night in the mail, and have had only one problem that I have noticed. When Patton is giving his speech to the British ladies and infamously declares that it is the destiny of the Americans and British to rule the world (leaving out their Russian allies), there is one place at the beginning of his speech where the audio drops out completely and you don't even hear ambient noise. No dialogue is affected, but it's noticeable just the same.

What problems have you been having?