A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray - Page 5

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

While I'm thinking about it, the thing that really bothers me about the Blu-ray release of "Patton" is that at the beginning of the film I can now see in 1080p HD that actor moving and breathing while supposedly portraying a dead American soldier with those scorpions crawling on his back and neck.





Crawdaddy

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Must be, everytime I see both scenes, it bugs the crap out of me.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

After seeing Patton's shinny, waxy face, during the opening scene, on my Sony XBR 34" CRT, I decided to read about the Dimension 150 process, which Patton was filmed. This process was derived from Todd-AO and used a new 150 degree angle lens for ultra wide sharp images. I believe the movie screen is curved more like a Cinerama presentation. Anyway, I never saw this when it came out, so I can't compare it to the 65mm print. Did anyone see this when it came out in 1970?? Where was its premiere??? How was it presented? I did see most of the FOX Todd-AO Roadshows of the 60's at the Madison Theater in Detroit, so I'll be able to compare them, when the Blu Ray is released.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

There are oodles of posts in other forums about noise reduction, grain remove, digital airbrushing, scrubbing, etc. and how it is going to be the new "Black bars" issue. Joe Six Pack wants waxy clean images that look like The Incredibles so the studio will give them that by way of scrubbing grain and everything else out of the image.

The biggest example of this is PAN'S PABYRINTH. The U.S. release has had heavy noise reduction/grain removal applied and so everything looks clean to a fault. Faces are like wax dolls. Meanwhile the three European releases had little to no noise reduction and look much much sharper and detailed as a result. There are screen captures online that will blow your mind.

Numerous studio releases here are being scrubbed of detail. GOLDEN COMPASS, TWISTER, FCE/OFF, RESIDENT EVIL 3, SCARY MOVE 3 (or 4, not sure) all have annoyingly minor to horrifically heavy DVNR applied.

This will not stop. It will just get worse.

The ONLY way to stop this is to get the assistance of MAJOR filmmakers to protest what the studios are doing. That means guys like George Lucas, Steven Speilberg, Peter Jackson, Martin Scorsese.

Fact is, most directors approve the TRANSFER for their films, but have no input at all in the actual encoding of the DVD's and BD's. They are unaware of what is happening.

Those of you taking issue with what Robert Harris is saying really astonish me. You cannot find someone more in the know than Mr. Harris. I trust what he says.

I also trust my own eyes and since HD has been made available on the two optical formats I have noticed numerous releases that look smeared and devoid of detail on my rather large 73" RP. Our Mitsubishi set (which has 9 inch guns) is ISF calibrated and tweaked every six months. On a screen this large signs of noise reduction are clear as day.

I'm ranting and need to stop because I am getting angry. Best I stop talking.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

D 150 was only used on 2 movies. Patton in particular I don't believe used the special D150 lens that provide a wide panoramic view on more than a few shots in the movie.

For lots of in depth info on D150, check out the American Widescreen Museum

Widescreen Museum - The Todd-AO / 70mm Wing - page 13 - Dimension 150

To quote the Museum:


Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

You can see differences since the MTF of BD as a digital format is pretty flat upto 1080p while the films' is not. The 65mm will look different from the other 2 which will look close to each other.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I would agree with RAH. 20 to 25% seems about right.

I saw Patton in NYC on a 70mm print and I can assure you that there was film grain present, although at a very subtle level. The transfer of "The Sand Pebbles" does, in fact, do a far far better job of recreating the film experience than the transfer of "Patton".

Very disappointing..... and a real shame..... And a real waste of a 70mm source element.

Vern

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

D-150 was more popular in the U.S where the U.A.circuit supported the process than in the rest of the world.They put it in their new theatres and in some of their old such as their flagship, the Rivoli in N.Y.
Rank was supposed to handle the process elsewhere but in fact brought out their version called Vistarama which was quite succesful. It was promoted more as a theatre system that could adapt to all formats. D150 sued Rank but lost and that was the end of them.
The U.K managed two D150 theatres,the main at the wonderful Odeon Marble Arch in London but never managed to show either of the two films made in the process.Patton in London opened at the main Cinerama theatre, the Casino where it managed a run of about 5 months.The Brits didn't like seeing their hero, Monty made to look like an idiot. Cinerama would not allow the use of their projection lenses so others were used(Vistarama?) which resulted in the top corners being masked off as the image did not fill the screen. Apart from that, Patton looked wonderful.I saw it there twice and ,of course, now wish it had been more.!

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

At the risk of being run off this site, I don't cry over spilled film grain. Grain reduction doesn't bother me in the least, although the removal of other information does.

I don't look at a movie and say, "Oh, but the film grain that used to be there was soooo beautiful. I sure do miss the grain." Mr. Harris has pointed out many times that his criticism isn't about the lack of grain, but the removal of high frequency information that was removed as a result of improperly removing the grain. He has also pointed out that it is possible to remove the grain, hair, dirt, etc., without touching the high frequency information. That apparently wasn't done with this release.

I watched the first 20 minutes today at lunch, almost in fear of what I was going to find. I do not have the trained eye of Mr. Harris, and therefore, to me, what I saw was a wonder to behold. I don't know what I'm not seeing, but I do know what I am seeing, and what I can see is beautiful and far better than any previous incarnation of my 2nd favorite film of all time than I have ever seen before.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Your taste (and mine ) is beside the point. A transfer should strive to look like, you know, what the movie actually looked like.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

And it does, Alex. Or perhaps you can tell me what OTHER movie the BD of "Patton" looks like. It looks better than you've ever seen it before, unless you've seen a brand new struck 70mm print somewhere.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

If it's missing the fine grain along with the high frequency detail, it doesn't look as close to the true look of the film as it should (or COULD, given what the format can do).

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

And we're talking fine grain with 65mm and a great potential for exceptional detail.

Paul

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I watched this last night, and it is certainly impressive HD and best I've ever seen the film look (I wasn't a big fan of the picture quality on the 2006 CE, terribly soft), but it disappoints me that I know it could've been more. However, until it's improved, I'm more than happy to have this in my collection.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Without a doubt, I think we can agree for the most part that those people without the knowledge about the missing detail and film grain that watches this Blu-ray release would be very happy with the video presentation of it. The old adage about "ignorance is bliss" applies here.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Certainly, and trying to ignore what I've learned here, I was certainly impressed with what I saw - a remarkably dynamic, clean images, though a few times I thought Patton's face was waxy. My favorite film to BD transfers to date are 2001, The Searchers (ignoring the color issues), Blade Runner, No Country For Old Men, and Cast Away. If I hadn't read Robert's comments, this would probably rank as a 2nd tier title for me. Once again as home theater enthusiasts, our job is to try and educate, but compared to the whole OAR/widescreen debate, which was easier for the common Joe to see, advocating grain preservation and the reduction of DNR practices is more of an uphill battle.


Robert (Harris), it seems like BD is two steps forward and one-step back.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I think you're being extreme, but I expect that from somebody in your position. Despite the flaws with some of the Blu-ray presentations, I cannot agree with your sentiment.






Crawdaddy

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

If we're to discard BD as a failure, at least wait and do it after we've gotten a proper BD transfer of Vertigo with grain and high frequency detail intact. Then, I can die a happy man.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I'm absolutely appalled at DNR being used on any BD, but it still sounds as if this BD version of Patton is a huge upgrade over the DVD, no? If not, I will cancel my order.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Mr. Harris is exhibiting his flair for the dramatic, and perhaps overly dramatic, but I assume he is exaggerating to make a point.

In the opening speech, they cut to a close up of Patton clutching his glove and riding glove. You can see the woven fabric of his trousers that I'm quite sure you couldn't see in SD, and certainly not as clearly as you can here. Where is the smearing?

When someone is able to post something that shows us all what Patton is SUPPOSED to look like, then call me. Until then I am going to enjoy this latest incarnation of "Patton" while many others moan and groan and boycott and curse the picture they're watching.

Mr. Harris, you are an insider. You not only know people, but you know the right people. Rather than simply toss out Blu-ray as a format because they failed "Patton" (something you weren't as quick to do with the utter mess that was the first release of "Full Metal Jacket" which you highly praised), couldn't you simply inform the "right" people and let them know where they're missing it?

Dave H, it is a HUGE upgrade over every incarnation that has come before it on home video.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Link


Link


Link




Link





Paul

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Wow, I am away a few days and on coming back Fox degrained and DNR'd away all the fine detail of their BR war movie releases ? I really had high hopes for Patton and The Longest Day, now I will only get The Sand Pebbles from MGM.

Thanks to RAH for the review and giving this issue the attention it deserves, I will sit this one out and wait for a 70mm screening of Patton or a new BR release. I would have been proud to own a BR version that makes an effort to recreate the theatrical experience but not this. I have seen enough movies that were shot and projected in 70mm to have a frame of reference as to how Patton should and could look on BR, in fact I think that 70mm is such a grand expereince that even one movie might be enough for most of us to realize what we are missing.

And to those who always repeat that the BR is better than the DVD and the best available version: This is a very low standard by which to judge a BR release, especially of a 70mm movie, we should strive for BR to be the best it can be not just "better than DVD".

As I gather from the posts by RAH all is not lost as only the Blu-Ray mastering of Patton was done wrong, so I hope Fox will be doing a re-release one day.

And finally I'd like to remember those interested in large format movies on BR that Fox still has a vast catalogue that it can release from and where they can get things right, namely:

65/70mm productions:

Cleopatra
The Agony and the Ecstasy
Dr. Dolittle
Hello Dolly
The Sound of Music
South Pacific
Star!
Can Can
The Bible

and shot in Cinemascope 55:

The King and I
Carousel

To my knowledge 4k masters exist for most of these movies, one exception might be The Bible.

So Fox still can get a very large number of large format titles right and if they do I will buy every single one of them, even though I do not usually like musicals that much

According to Penton Man the people at Fox already are aware of the problem and I am hopeful that they will do better next time around - I have many very nice BR discs and DVDs from Fox that are among the best in their respective formats and I expect nothing less from their BR releases of large format films.

Oliver

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

And while they are getting around to fixing up the mistakes made with this release, maybe they could finally give A BRIDGE TOO FAR the treatment it deserves. By treatment, I mean a release with some actual extras and the best possible picture and sound. I cannot believe that ABTF just cannot seem to catch some love. All of the releases that film have been less than optimal.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

What's wrong with A Bridge too Far video presentation? By the way, MGM still does the preparation work on their releases, Fox is only the distributor of their product.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Reviewer at High-Def digest stated that there was some posterization and noise due to an MPEG-2 encode. He also stated that the DTS HD MA track suffered from volume balance issues. Too low during quiet sections, requiring him to turn up the volume and then having to quickly turn it down when action sequences kicked in. Also he felt that the music was too forward in the mix, resulting in trouble hearing dialogue.

My main problem, is that the film always seems to be released with out any extras. I would like to see some historical perspectives on the campaign as extras. It would also be interesting to hear and see about some of the logistical problems that they faced when shooting the film. After all, IIRC, at the time, the parachute jump in the film was the biggest mass jump since the end of the war.

I found it hard to believe that the reviewer gave the film only 2 stars. After reading his review, I got the feeling that he just didn't get what type of film it was meant to be.

I didn't realize that MGM did the prep work on the film. That's my bad. Sorry.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I don't see where he was being extreme at all. Dumb it down enough (via subverting/suppressing the higher freq info) and you really aren't that far off from fitting within the capabilities of standard def. I don't see this as being extreme because standard def right now is capable of producing some spectacular looking reproductions of film based material when done conscientiously and without a lot of artificial sweeteners. It doesn't seem like many Bd enthusiasts want to hear or admit that, but its the truth. Start with a high quality source, lay off the EE, and apply the same amount of DNR as found on Patton and you have a killer sd DVD. Well upconverted, I do think it would make most people question the need for all that extra space and the practical advantages of such higher bit rates. Screw the numbers, the proofs in the pudding.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

I think it's extreme because you're throwing out the baby with the bath water. If you want to drive improvements when it comes to how these transfers are done in this HD format, you just don't throw up your hands in disgust and say we should just go back to upconverting SD DVD. If we didn't give up on original aspect ratios for SD DVD then we shouldn't give up on excessive DNR for Blu-ray. Furthermore, have you watched this Blu-ray disc? If not then perhaps you should because it's much better than any upconverted SD DVD I ever watched on my Oppo or XA-2 despite the missing film grain and some detail. This format is still in it's infancy and with about 50% of the public still in the dark about it, we still have an opportunity to drive positive changes in it before it becomes mass market.

Re: A few words about...™ Patton -- in Blu-Ray

Very true, filtering out fine structures without sharp edges gives most shots a look that has more resemblance to a DVD with edge enhancement but without the halos than that of a true HD presentation. From the 720p captures posted elsewhere I would be rather surprised if there is any detail in the affected parts of the picture that exceeds DVD resolution. The Super Technirama 70 war movie Zulu was presented in a similar manner on SkyHD in the UK some time ago - a very weird look and not filmlike at all, more like a DVD on steroids.