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PC systems more popular now?

post #1 of 16
5/14/08 at 12:48pm
Thread Starter 
OK, so I bought a media PC recently on the basis that it should provide more flexibility and features than buying separate components like an external BD player, external DVD recorder, etc. for my HT system.

Are PC-based systems growing in popularity?

I thought I read enough before the PC purchase but I now learn that HD programs "broadcast" from a cable box, for example, cannot be copied in HD format to a PC. Wow, that was news to me.

How about BD disks played on an internal disk drive from the PC; can these be copied to the PC hard drive or is that restricted too?

I'm not here to violate copyright laws but I thought it would be OK to rent a BD movie, for example, and copy it for replay later so long as you did not intend to sell it to others.

If this is not the case, there is little need for a BD burner, I suppose.
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post #2 of 16
5/17/08 at 9:03am

Re: PC systems more popular now?

Quote:
How about BD disks played on an internal disk drive from the PC; can these be copied to the PC hard drive or is that restricted too?

Not without 3rd party software which strips away the copy protection from the disc. Talk of such here is strictly forbidden.

From the HTF rules:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/rules.php

5. Respect for copyrights. Home Theater Forum has a strict policy of respecting the rights of copyright holders. We do not allow discussion of bootleg material or where or how to obtain it, and we immediately delete all links to sites that deal in bootleg material. If you have any doubt whether a source is legitimate, please check with a moderator before posting any links. We also do not allow discussion of (a) how to make unauthorized copies of video or audio materials, (b) how to defeat any form of copy protection (including, for example, how to make “personal” copies of commercially produced DVDs), and/or (c) how to obtain equipment that can only be used for such purposes.
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post #3 of 16
5/18/08 at 2:11pm
Thread Starter 

Re: PC systems more popular now?

VCRs that record have been aroud for about 30 years. When they first came out the Supreme court ruled that it was not a violation of copyright laws if you made a copy of a rented movie or broadcast program and did not re-sell it to others.

The concept today is similar with DVRs that record programing from cable boxes.

How is copying a program on your DVR hard drive any differnt from copying the same program on your PC's hard drive?

I'm not attempting to break any copywright laws.
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post #4 of 16
5/18/08 at 4:46pm

Re: PC systems more popular now?

The Supreme Court ruling only explicitly legalized time-shifting of broadcast programs. Duplicating rented movies breaks copyright laws, haven't you seen the FBI warning plastered at the beginning of every VHS & DVD for the last several decades? It doesn't matter that you don't sell to others (that just makes it unlikely for you to get caught), the principle is you are circumventing the copyright holder's right to make money by selling you a legal copy or renting it again to you in some manner.
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post #5 of 16
5/19/08 at 5:38am
Thread Starter 

Re: PC systems more popular now?

...but in the case of the DVR, I've already paid the artists via my cable bill, dido for each rented movie...

So people who have made VCR copies of movies they rented for the last 30 years are violating copyright laws? Then why haven't the artists prevented electronics manufactorers from selling dulicating equipment?

I thought the artists tried this in the 1970-80's and the Supreme court ruled aginst them.

The more recent issue with people file sharing music was clearly a diffeent situation since the artists were not being paid by those who downloaded the music; right?
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post #6 of 16
5/19/08 at 8:11am

Re: PC systems more popular now?

Quote:
We also do not allow discussion of... (b) how to defeat any form of copy protection (including, for example, how to make “personal” copies of commercially produced DVDs), and/or (c) how to obtain equipment that can only be used for such purposes.

Legal arguments are not the issue. You agreed to abide by the HTF guidelines when you joined and there they are. There is no way to do what you ask without defeating copy protection.
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post #7 of 16
5/19/08 at 10:42am

Re: PC systems more popular now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert bartsch
...but in the case of the DVR, I've already paid the artists via my cable bill, dido for each rented movie...

You paid for the right to view an authorized copy & return it, not for the right to make an unauthorized copy to keep forever. Just because you paid the artist *something* doesn't give you the right to circumvent the price they are asking for a purchase vs. a rental. E.g. they want $20 for the legal, authorized DVD/BD for you to own, not just some fraction of the $4 rental fee. As a consumer, if you feel the price is too high for that, then your legal, proper response is to simply not buy it, not rent it & make a copy. If the market agrees with you, that the price is too high for purchase, then the disc won't sell & the price will come down, perhaps to a more palatable level for you. If not, well, just live without the disc, or simply rent it again if you wish another viewing.

Quote:
So people who have made VCR copies of movies they rented for the last 30 years are violating copyright laws?
Yes.

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Then why haven't the artists prevented electronics manufactorers from selling dulicating equipment?
The core of the court ruling was that if equipment had substantial non-copyright-infringing uses, you can't bar their sale just because some people use them to infringe.

Quote:
I thought the artists tried this in the 1970-80's and the Supreme court ruled aginst them.
If you read the ruling (google for "Betamax decision"), you'll see that they only legalized time-shifting, certainly not duplication of rentals.

Quote:
The more recent issue with people file sharing music was clearly a different situation since the artists were not being paid by those who downloaded the music; right?

No. Both giving the studio $0 (illegal download) instead of $1 (legal download) and giving the studio part of $4 (rental) instead of $20(purchase) are harming the owner of the copyright. It's akin to going into a store and altering a price tag, just because you give them *some* money doesn't mean you aren't stealing from them.

If you can't afford to buy movies, just rent! A netflix sub at $17/month is like owning nearly every major (non-porn, domestic) DVD ever made, just the retrieval system is more inefficient than having the disc at home . But it's a ton cheaper than legally buying thousands of titles ...
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post #8 of 16
5/19/08 at 8:15pm

Re: PC systems more popular now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert bartsch
Then why haven't the artists prevented electronics manufactorers from selling dulicating equipment?

They have, that's why you can't copy Hi-DEF to any device this days.(At least in the US, Hi-DEF recorders are sold in Japan, but I have no idea what they can record over there)

I believe I read somewhere that early Hi-def tuner cards (forced off the market and not on sale for a while now) allowed you to record Hi-DEF – over the air -- broadcasts to a HDD because the copy guard protection software (and finalized new rules ) were not ready/implemented at the time.

This subject of copy-rights and what's fair or not for consumers to record etc etc, was a really hot controversial topic in this forums a few years back when HDCP, DVI and HDMI connectors were first introduced.

The new technology in place right now is so powerful that consumers can be prevented from even time-shifting –as the Supreme Court decided-- if the copyrights holders demand it.

You can be prevented from recording any show if they wish, or if recording is allowed, they can control how many times you can record it and in what resolution, (possibly we’ll have to pay a premium for better rez) and then tell you how many times you are allowed to watch such show in your living room within a ‘window’ of time. (Even if you paid for it)

This issue is very complicated, and maybe you should do a search of the archives here and other forums to catch up, very interesting and controversial subject, involving many sides and players.

The consensus was that most likely the Supreme Court will have to re-visit this issue sometime in the future, but this may take decades if ever, and from what I’ve been able to gather from reading this forums and assorted Publications, no one in the general public cares any longer…..
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post #9 of 16
5/21/08 at 12:16pm
Thread Starter 

Re: PC systems more popular now?

OK - so this has been helpfull.

I think before my Media PC purchase a few weeks ago I read two dozen magazine articles, all of which were written to encourage folks to move forward with intergrating (purchasing) a high-end PC into their HT.

None of these articles mentioned copywrite laws or more accurately
policy conventions (e.g., equipment designed to prevent copying or storage) but they did encourage folks to buy machines with fast chips and huge HDs. Since I have had a DVR with a small HD for months now, I naturally assumed the magazine article advice on HD storage was made so you could record HD programming from cable boxes, rented DVDs, and other sources on your PC for future play-back in your home (not for resale to others).

My cable company (Cablevision) allows DVR recordings to be stored (copied) indefinately. If the Supreme court decision only permits time shifting, this Cablevision feature seems to go further.

To be truthful, I never read the FBI warning. I can put a sign on my front lawn that says you enter my property at your own risk, but that would not prevent a mailman from succesfully suing me if he slips and falls on my driveway. In other words, you can place a warning that is illegal to copy material but that does not make it law; right?

Anyway, I have no intention of violating copyright laws.

Knowing what I do now, I can't think of a good reason why someone should run out and buy an expensive PC to integrate into their HT. Yet, PC magazines are continuing to tout these as a necessary component in HT.

Why is that; are they slaves to the advertisers who butter their bread?
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post #10 of 16
5/21/08 at 1:02pm

Re: PC systems more popular now?

Most magazines are. That's where their money comes from, advertising.

Also, look who that magazine is catering to, computer enthusiests, not home theater enthusiasts.
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post #11 of 16
5/21/08 at 2:41pm
Thread Starter 

Re: PC systems more popular now?

One other thing.. I recently subscribed to NetFlix - even though I am not a big fan of movies.

Anyway, if you buy a $99 box from them you can direct movies to your home with a PC. In effect, you can view the same movie 100 times with no additional cost other than the monthly fee paid for the Netflix subscription and your Internet connection fee. In reality, this is no differnt from owning the movie on DVD, for example. Unfortunately, the rez is low - 420 so I think I will pass unitl it gets higher.

So with the Netflix live movie service and the indefinate DVR storage capability from cable broadcasters, individuals are able to use copyrighted material as if it were owned by them.

So why are meida content providers making a big the fuss about managed digital media rights on equipment; the cat is out-of-the-bag, so to speak; right?
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post #12 of 16
5/21/08 at 5:06pm

Re: PC systems more popular now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert bartsch
None of these articles mentioned copywrite laws or more accurately
policy conventions (e.g., equipment designed to prevent copying or storage) but they did encourage folks to buy machines with fast chips and huge HDs. Since I have had a DVR with a small HD for months now, I naturally assumed the magazine article advice on HD storage was made so you could record HD programming from cable boxes, rented DVDs, and other sources on your PC for future play-back in your home (not for resale to others).

It's "copyright" (the "right" to make copies), not "copywrite". Large hard drives are still useful for storing programming that is legal to be copied/downloaded to the PC. PC tuner cards still tune local broadcast stations fine (via OTA or unencrypted QAM), and are allowed to record to disk. You can make transfers from HD Tivos, and from Firewire active cable boxes, if the channel doesn't have certain copy protection bits set. There are sources for legal downloads like iTunes, Amazon.

Copying *purchased* DVDs (rather than rented) to disk for personal usage on a media server to me is a morally gray area, not as clear cut copyright violation, could be argued as fair use but is now afoul of the DMCA. I personally feel that ought to be allowed, but breaking the encryption is illegal as of now.

Quote:
My cable company (Cablevision) allows DVR recordings to be stored (copied) indefinately. If the Supreme court decision only permits time shifting, this Cablevision feature seems to go further.

The drives are small enough on these DVRs that the copyright holders haven't made a big stink about this, people can't make a huge library without running out of space. However as drives get bigger they may start implementing restrictions on how long programming may be kept.

Quote:
In other words, you can place a warning that is illegal to copy material but that does not make it law; right?
No, of course the laws had to be passed by the government at some point, you can't just pretend there are bogus laws, put up warnings, and expect them to hold up in court. But the warning is referencing actual real laws; you think they just made it up? If the laws weren't real then you wouldn't ever read about various pirates being busted & lawsuits holding up.

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Knowing what I do now, I can't think of a good reason why someone should run out and buy an expensive PC to integrate into their HT.
Doesn't have to be *that* expensive. They can be used as MP3 servers, photo servers, legal recordings + downloads, gaming machines, plus some like to web surf on their big HDTVs. They aren't absolutely necessary but some like these features.
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post #13 of 16
5/21/08 at 5:09pm

Re: PC systems more popular now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by robert bartsch
So with the Netflix live movie service and the indefinate DVR storage capability from cable broadcasters, individuals are able to use copyrighted material as if it were owned by them.

So why are meida content providers making a big the fuss about managed digital media rights on equipment; the cat is out-of-the-bag, so to speak; right?

Netflix -- to use their instant streaming service you have to continue to pay that monthly fee, and presumably the studios have negotiated with Netflix to get their perceived fair share of that fee based on what content you download. This is quite different from owning the DVD; if you own the DVD you don't have to pay anyone anything ever to watch it again. Here if you stop paying Netflix (and through them the studios), you don't get to watch anymore.

Indefinite storage on PVRs - as I said, as larger disks start being used, they may start enforcing retainment limits they have already had the DVR manufacturers implement.
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post #14 of 16
5/21/08 at 8:21pm

Re: PC systems more popular now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Tu
Large hard drives are still useful for storing programming that is legal to be copied/downloaded to the PC. PC tuner cards still tune local broadcast stations fine (via OTA or unencrypted QAM), and are allowed to record to disk. You can make transfers from HD Tivos, and from Firewire active cable boxes, if the channel doesn't have certain copy protection bits set. There are sources for legal downloads like iTunes, Amazon.

So PC cards can tune in and record HI_DEF OTA programming still?

And if so, can one copy/transfer this to a Blu-ray disc then?

Are this transfers from a HD-TIVO/DVRs Hi_DEF?

I was under the impression that all this boxes could only output to S-video for recording purposes since I don't know of any HDMI/DVI or component Hi-def recorders.
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post #15 of 16
5/21/08 at 9:53pm

Re: PC systems more popular now?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alfonso_M
So PC cards can tune in and record HI_DEF OTA programming still?
Yes.

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And if so, can one copy/transfer this to a Blu-ray disc then?
Probably, with the right software.

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Are this transfers from a HD-TIVO/DVRs Hi_DEF?
Yes, when allowed.

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I was under the impression that all this boxes could only output to S-video for recording purposes since I don't know of any HDMI/DVI or component Hi-def recorders.
These transfers to PC are not re-recordings. They are basically network transfers of the MPEG transport stream. Via ethernet/wifi in the Tivo case, by Firewire in the cable box case (AFAIK can only record live stream this way, can't transfer previous recordings from the non-Tivo cable DVRs).
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post #16 of 16
5/23/08 at 8:37pm

Re: PC systems more popular now?

On a side note, you may look into whether your cable provider supports CableCARD. There is a large amount of HTPCs now that have CableCard slots with allow for the operation of the digital streams without going through a cable box first. Not sure if this solves your problem, but is slightly convenient on the number of devices front.
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