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A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

post #1 of 24
Thread Starter 
As I'm attempting to catch up with Blu releases going back to December and January, and concurrently work through the new candidates for discussion, I found myself unable to do justice to the latest group of Fox Blu-Rays which are inclusive of DTS HD Master audio. Lossless audio played back on a quality system is a bit of technical caviar that, based upon the disc in question, can enhance the viewing experience measurably. Those who can consider acquiring it should seriously consider its addition to the viewing environment.

The rude awakening arrived this morning as I attempted to survey the audio on Master and Commander as well as Butch Cassidy...

Several hours later, after confirming stock, I made a pilgrimage to Value Electronics in Scarsdale, NY, and with the aid of the ever helpful Robert Zohn, left his store with a new Denon 3800.

I went the Denon route with some trepidation, as reports of problems abound, especially over at AVS, a solid website with knowledgeable members. There have been two firmware upgrades in just the past couple of weeks, the upshot of which is that the hardware must be returned to Denon for upgrade.

Typical of Value, rather than turn a problematic piece of equipment over to a customer, they returned their entire stock to Denon for upgrade, and only offer properly updated hardware.

I made off with their last piece.

Setup was uneventful, and although I'm forced to run lossless audio via analogue -- the hardware ended up working flawlessly, with both amazing image as well as audio, as pumped through a Lexicon MC-12 and into B & W speakers for 7.1 audio.

My test disc, after running a couple of sequences from known entities, was Fox's new BD of Master and Commander, which had amazing image as well as huge, pin-pointed audio in theatrical.

The disc does not disappoint, as the initial sea battle came through crisp, clean, clear and like its theatrical counterpart, pin-pointed for spacial accuracy. You could literally hear a cannonball makes its way across the room.

Based upon the series of books by Patrick O'Brian, director Peter Weir's extremely cinematic retelling on film, is brilliant filmmaking that serves as the basis of a beautiful Blu-Ray disc from Fox Home Video.

My only caveat is that many of the extras originally on the two-disc special edition in standard def have not been ported over to the BD. As one of the major selling points for BD over HD was the amount of real estate available for content, I'm at a loss to understand why the material was pulled.

One would think that at this juncture, ie. the studio attempting to bring a new base of viewers into Blu, that they would hopefully not be playing the old "double or triple-dip" routine, with a special edition hitting the store in October or next March. I believe that would thoroughly antagonize the customer base. I sincerely hope that it isn't the case.

With tremendous audio intact, and a beautiful new BD image, Master and Commander receives a Highly Recommended.

RAH

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #2 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

In an attempt to not concentrate on nothing but the negative, I'll just say here that I strongly share your feelings about the missing extras. Now I still cannot replace my DVD and remove it from my (too fastly filling) cabinets but have to add the BD to the shrinking unused space.

Because one thing is true: I already ordered this Blu-ray version long ago, and left it standing with Amazon. And I will be happy to receive this beautiful version soon. So will my wife, who's an addict to the novels (she starts reading all of them in proper order once every year again ).

Thanks, Robert! For the review as well as expressing the feelings of us early adopters!


Cees
post #3 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

I haven't preorder this because of its high price, but will buy it first chance it goes on sale.
post #4 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
With tremendous audio intact, and a beautiful new BD image, Master and Commander receives a Highly Recommended.

Allow me to begin my post by setting the tone in which my reply should be read--it is one of honest respect for your knowledge, Mr. Harris, and your efforts on behalf of film lovers; you're a tremendous resource, both here and to the home video and film restoration communities at large, so my pushback is offered with that appreciation at the forefront. I am compelled to register this question because it is a lamentable practice I see often at review sites such as this one and DVDTalk; now that you've done it, I can't stay silent. Why did you spend a (laudable) paragraph chastising Fox for inexplicably dropping the copious entertaining and informative extras from the SD release of MASTER AND COMMANDER, then give the Blu-ray a "Highly Recommended"? As a consumer whose purchase needs do not end at great audio and video, I feel that this practice undermines the initial complaint and really sends the message to the studio that, in the end, dropping bonus features is "no biggie". Mr. Harris, you are far too influential to send such a message, intended or otherwise, to the studios; at minimum, might I suggest closing reviews for titles of this nature with something along the lines of "For consumers focused solely on video and audio presentation, this title comes HIGHLY RECOMMENDED, but for completists who value bonus features as much as the presentation of the film proper, this title cannot be recommended."? And, again, thanks for all you do--as what feels like the only male on the planet who doesn't like THE GODFATHER series, you're even getting me excited about those!
post #5 of 24
Thread Starter 

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

Travis,

While your comments are quite correct, I must point out that my comments, which generally center upon the quality of the feature presentation, are what I use to form an overall rating.

To me, everything else, from commentaries, to featurettes and documentaries, gag reels and Easter eggs, are merely the icing on the disc. Ancillary comments, regarding extras will certainly be duly noted. I believe the studio home video folks are intelligent people, who don't need to be hit over the head. They know how to read the public.

Also, as different teams are responsible for different areas of a release, I have no desire to damage quality work done by the technical staff by lumping missing extras in the overall rating. The only fair means of accomplishing this would be to go the route of reviewers, both on HTF and elsewhere, who properly differentiate between image, audio and extras.

The review on HTF makes its point about missing extras loud and clear. They don't call HTF's Fox reviewer "Give 'em Hell Osadciw" for nothing!

Their voices will certainly be heard.

RAH
post #6 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

Fair enough; thank you for your consideration and I do fervently hope you're right...Fox is about on my last nerve. This constant vacillation between releasing discs with no or truncated extras and ones with full extras leads me to believe many of the former (like MASTER AND COMMANDER, BUTCH CASSIDY and PREDATOR) must have been pressed long ago and, for reasons unclear to me, are only now finding their way to the market...
post #7 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

I have no problems buying a movie only, or movie with scant extras, however I won't pay a premium price for them. If it were list priced at $19.95 I would have no problem, but Master and Commander is list priced at $39.98. I'll wait for a BOGO or maybe pick up a used copy of this one.

Doug
post #8 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

I appreciate the heads up. This is a high def disc I definitely want, and I'd prefer the extras. I'm still willing to purchase this "bare bones" version, but not a premium price. It's the same with several Fox titles (Man on Fire, Predator, Die Hard, plus a few others). They'd get my money, even with these, if their prices were reasonable.

I will probably get this film, as I love and admite it quite a bit. But not for MSRP. I'll wait a bit.
post #9 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

This is one of my favorite recent films and I would love to own it in HD, but it does bother me that they did not include the extras. Like Cees I will not be able to simply replace my collector's edition. I will pass on this for now, but if I am able to pick it up on the cheap is the coming months I may not be able to resist.
post #10 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I have no problems buying a movie only, or movie with scant extras, however I won't pay a premium price for them. If it were list priced at $19.95 I would have no problem, but Master and Commander is list priced at $39.98. I'll wait for a BOGO or maybe pick up a used copy of this one.

Couldn't say it more simply. But, then again, that's how I buy almost all my BDs.
post #11 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I have no problems buying a movie only, or movie with scant extras, however I won't pay a premium price for them. If it were list priced at $19.95 I would have no problem, but Master and Commander is list priced at $39.98. I'll wait for a BOGO or maybe pick up a used copy of this one.

Doug

You said it Doug. Great movie. I would love to own it, but not at that price, and for no extras. Yes, it is all about the movie. But, for my budget, Warner meets my needs on all fronts! Extras, and for under $20. I can buy 2 Warner discs damn near at the same price of 1 FOX.

But thank you for your thoughts Mr. Harris, always appreciated.
post #12 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

Well, it's no Master and Commander, but the the Mrs. Doubtfire Blu ports over all the stuff from the two-disc set. Hopefully this is a sign of things to come. M&C still beats Robocop's trailer only edition (though not by much, that 70 minute docu on M&C is superb to my memory).

Sadly, Butch and Sundance is also missing some content.
post #13 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

It's gratifying to learn that someone with Mr. Harris' reputation has similar grievances regarding the appalling lack of extras on BDs nowadays. Even trailers are missing quite often and yet the price stays up there. I haven't seen as much sympathy as I would like in the community on this subject.

I was royally pissed to learn the excellent 4-disc edition of Kingdom of Heaven on SD had NONE of the extras ported over to the BD version, not even a blasted trailer.

This is really disgraceful. I was a laserdisc fan who made the switch to DVD in early 1999 and it seemed that much of the supplements I got used to on laser made the grade to DVD, not so with Blu Ray it appears.

I can only hope that as more of the public jumps on board that the studios might start paying attention. It's sad how they treat us early adopters.
post #14 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

I broke down and ordered a copy from Amazon. I wasn't getting any other discs this week and I've wanted to compare this disc to the D-Theater tape since the first time it was announced. I concur with the poster that suspects that these discs might have been pressed last year....??? That wouldn't sue-prize me tat'all.
post #15 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rachael B
I concur with the poster that suspects that these discs might have been pressed last year....??? That wouldn't sue-prize me tat'all.

Not conclusive proof, but I did notice that the (UK) Blu-ray M&C sleeve does have a 2007 copyright date.
post #16 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

I'm disappointed in this BD because it caused a big digital pop at 17:25 . I was bitsreaming Master to my Onkyo 805. I think I'm just about over DTS when the other sound formats work without hitches.
post #17 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

Rachel,

That's a problem with some receivers and DTS-MA. It's even got a cute name (the "bitstream bomb"). A firmware update will solve that problem.

Check this thread over avsforum:

**WARNING** DTS Masters bitstreamed to Yamaha, Onkyo or Integra can damage speakers!! - AVS Forum

-Reagan
post #18 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

Thank you Regan! It's bad enough having had to upgrade my players over and over and now the head unit too..... next my speaker cables are gonna need a firmware upgrade.
post #19 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I have no problems buying a movie only, or movie with scant extras, however I won't pay a premium price for them. If it were list priced at $19.95 I would have no problem, but Master and Commander is list priced at $39.98. I'll wait for a BOGO or maybe pick up a used copy of this one.

I have already posted this in all the usual places (Bargains & Deals/Borders Coupon thread & HD Sale Consolidated Thread)...but since we had the discussion here I thought I'd do it one more time.

Borders has a 40% off coupon (DVDs & Blu-ray) that is good today & tomorrow only (5-19 & 5-20-08). That knocks M&C from $40 down to $24.
post #20 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon
Borders has a 40% off coupon (DVDs & Blu-ray) that is good today & tomorrow only (5-19 & 5-20-08). That knocks M&C from $40 down to $24.

I believe I bought it at Amazon for $23.95. If you add another BR, shipping is free.
post #21 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
As I'm attempting to catch up with Blu releases going back to December and January, and concurrently work through the new candidates for discussion, I found myself unable to do justice to the latest group of Fox Blu-Rays which are inclusive of DTS HD Master audio. Lossless audio played back on a quality system is a bit of technical caviar that, based upon the disc in question, can enhance the viewing experience measurably. Those who can consider acquiring it should seriously consider its addition to the viewing environment.

The rude awakening arrived this morning as I attempted to survey the audio on Master and Commander as well as Butch Cassidy...

Several hours later, after confirming stock, I made a pilgrimage to Value Electronics in Scarsdale, NY, and with the aid of the ever helpful Robert Zohn, left his store with a new Denon 3800.

I went the Denon route with some trepidation, as reports of problems abound, especially over at AVS, a solid website with knowledgeable members. There have been two firmware upgrades in just the past couple of weeks, the upshot of which is that the hardware must be returned to Denon for upgrade.

Typical of Value, rather than turn a problematic piece of equipment over to a customer, they returned their entire stock to Denon for upgrade, and only offer properly updated hardware.

I made off with their last piece.

Setup was uneventful, and although I'm forced to run lossless audio via analogue -- the hardware ended up working flawlessly, with both amazing image as well as audio, as pumped through a Lexicon MC-12 and into B & W speakers for 7.1 audio.

My test disc, after running a couple of sequences from known entities, was Fox's new BD of Master and Commander, which had amazing image as well as huge, pin-pointed audio in theatrical.

The disc does not disappoint, as the initial sea battle came through crisp, clean, clear and like its theatrical counterpart, pin-pointed for spacial accuracy. You could literally hear a cannonball makes its way across the room.

Based upon the series of books by Patrick O'Brian, director Peter Weir's extremely cinematic retelling on film, is brilliant filmmaking that serves as the basis of a beautiful Blu-Ray disc from Fox Home Video.

My only caveat is that many of the extras originally on the two-disc special edition in standard def have not been ported over to the BD. As one of the major selling points for BD over HD was the amount of real estate available for content, I'm at a loss to understand why the material was pulled.

One would think that at this juncture, ie. the studio attempting to bring a new base of viewers into Blu, that they would hopefully not be playing the old "double or triple-dip" routine, with a special edition hitting the store in October or next March. I believe that would thoroughly antagonize the customer base. I sincerely hope that it isn't the case.

With tremendous audio intact, and a beautiful new BD image, Master and Commander receives a Highly Recommended.

RAH

Mr. Harris,

I respect your opinion tremendously and value what you bring to the forum. However, I don't agree with your assessment of the video image. You opinion of the audio is spot-on...this is one of the finest tracks I've heard yet on BR, improving upon an already stellar DTS track from the DVD. For me though, the video image was not that much better than an upconverted DVD (viewing on a 56" DLP with a PS3 as a source). Here is what I expressed in the M & C review thread:

After skipping around this disc tonight (I caved and bought it today), I agree wholeheartedley with your assessment of the video. I kept waiting for a scene in the daylight (vs. the night or the fog) where I could see some extra detail in faces and uniforms. Unfortunately, it couldn't quite keep up with the video on some of the better looking releases out there when those scenes arose. Much like you, I also felt it was a tad grainy, perhaps bordering on noisy? I'm not an expert on video noise so I'll default to some other experts on this forum, but I did feel it was a bit much. For me, the video gets 4/5 stars and it's a 4 by a small margin.

That being said, after viewing this disc a few more times this weekend, I would drop that video score to (at best) a 3.5 if not a tad lower.
post #22 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

I'm going to be getting my copy of the D-Theater tape out for a compare. Going by memory, the tape looked better.....but not tonight as I have a copy of Before The Devil Knows You're Dead but soon.
post #23 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

I couldn't tell any appreciable difference between the PQ of the D-tape and BD. That foggy, first half-hour is damn hard stuff to reproduce on home video. All in all, I quess they did fairly well with it.
post #24 of 24

Re: A few words about...™ Master and Commander -- in Blu-Ray

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
I haven't preorder this because of its high price, but will buy it first chance it goes on sale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
I have no problems buying a movie only, or movie with scant extras, however I won't pay a premium price for them. If it were list priced at $19.95 I would have no problem, but Master and Commander is list priced at $39.98. I'll wait for a BOGO or maybe pick up a used copy of this one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon
Couldn't say it more simply. But, then again, that's how I buy almost all my BDs.

And my wait is finally over. I found a used BD copy of M&C tonight at my local FYE for $21! Lossless audio, here I come!
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