"Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29 - Page 3

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Perhaps it's a bit premature to describe this transfer as a failed effort. Screen grabs are notoriously unreliable.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

I agree. Also, the size of the screen needs to be mentioned.

If this movie does have DNR or missing high frequency information, I hope the HTF will allow the posting of such information and not censor the posts.

Already on blu-ray.com's "insider" thread, Michel_Hafner's July 19, 2008 12:16:24 PM PDT post has been removed.

Would this kind of comment be removed here?

Paul

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Only if it was not backed up by reasoned discussion of the qualities that led the poster to his or her opinion. I.e., HTF doesn't tolerate bching or baiting, but it does allow discussion.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

These days it's better to wait for comments from people who have seen the transfer, are FULLY aware of the DNR/EE issue and what it looks like, AND have the large screen high end equipment to show such problems. I would say DVD Beaver doesn't meet the criteria.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Whatever makes you say that? The DVD Beaver review does not make any mention whatsoever about EE or excessive DNR or whether it was applied at all, to excess or not at all...

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

I saw his comment was removed too. This is getting disturbing.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

I'm saying that the DVD Beaver site doesn't show the same awareness of the issue that other people do.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

closest Beaver gets to mentioning anything was,...

"Viewers with higher-end systems may also note how limited the digital noise [is] in the Blu-ray. The old single-layered SD was fraught with these artifacts as there are so many dark, low lit, scenes in the film."

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

From AVS, for what it's worth. Mouseovers show direct comparisons between broadcast 1080i and the BD...

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

can you provide a direct link to that post.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Hiya Tony! Sure.

Blu-ray, HD-DVD & HD Broadcasts(H.264 & MPEG-2) Screenshots*BIG FILES* - Page 66 - AVS Forum

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

When I roll over those images, a better image appears, with more detail and texture. Is that what I am supposed to be seeing?

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Dunno, I just can't get all worked up over jpeg screengrabs, digital camera still shots of paused displays or the usual chorus of noise from a bunch of AVS screengrab worshipers who haven't even sampled the disc themselves. Sorry if this comes across as snarky but basing ones final judgment on a still-shot posted by someone else on an internet messageboard seems a bit idiotic to me.


BTW - I've seen nothing in those DVDBeaver shots that would prompt me to cancel my pre-order, do I need a 1080p computer monitor to see how horrible these still shots are or do I just need to visit an optometrist? Not that I put much trust in screengrabs in the first place.



As usual I'll reserve judgment until I've seen this on my own display.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

thanks buddy.



the thing i see in #4 is the lines of the tiles seem to disappear in few areas on the br version.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Yes it does. Why the rant again screen grabs? Sure, they don't tell the whole story, but your post comes across as saying they aren't a useful tool as a basis for comparison and discussion, ESPECIALLY the direct grabs (NOT "digital camera still shots of paused displays") posted by people such as Xylon. Such a contention by you simply isn't true. Posts by people who HAVE seen titles such as Patton, The Longest Day, etc. prove that a good screen grab IS an accurate reflection of what people see on their systems, whether you acknowledge it or not.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

The one thing i know, is the first release was great in 98. Now it looks like s**t on my 50" Tosh plasma, and my 52" Sony LCD . The Blu-ray has to be better than the 98 release. I am also not a fan of still pictures on my computer. Even though i can see whats going on in those pics, i will also have to see it on my TV.

Side note to Dave Mack...i hate to bring it up again, but i can see the writing better in the Dracula Blu-ray better now on my Sony LCD. Its not perfect, but its better than how it looks on my plasma.

And that brings me to how different each display can be. I have no doubt some of these movies really look good, or bad on a 105" display. But you get down to 50", and plasma vs. LCD (with moving pictures!) and its a different game. Of course i also agree Blu-ray should always look like film, on as many different screen sizes as technology will allow.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Which is it? An "accurate reflection" or "they don't tell the whole story"? I love it when people contradict themselves especially in the same paragraph.

and my "rant against screengrabs" stems from my frustration with the lemming mentality that prevails on a lot of messageboards. People jumping on the bandwagon and parroting other opinions who are unable or unwilling to form their own.

Now for anyone looking for some meaningful feedback on PQ, there's so much noise from people basing their opinions on screengrabs, who haven't even sampled the disc that it's going to be almost impossible to glean any first hand intelligent info from threads like these. Such is the internet I guess.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

By no means am I an expert but when I saw screengrabs of Gangs Of New York (for example), I could easily see the problem. With Dark City, I'm not seeing a problem.

EDIT: I agree with Jim K. It seems like there are people who are now looking for the DNR boogeyman to appear on every release. It seems like every review thread now has the paniced "Is there DNR?!!!!!!!!!!!" post.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

I too see an improvement from the 1080i to BD examples from DVD Beaver. I have nothing against screengrabs and I like DVD Beaver's site.

That said, people judging on their computers from the grabs need to be aware that your viewing device may also be affecting how you see the grab. As mine certainly is (Macbook Pro 2.33). I agree with Travis who said it was quite obvious on GoNY what the problem was. And while no doubt there may be issues on Dark City, it's certainly not near GoNY territory.

I'm a huge Dark City fan so I'll be picking this up regardless. Been waiting way too long not to. But I can also call out sub-par transfers (Robocop, Stargate, and the original Fifth Element BDs are what come to mind) even if I love the film, so if I get the disc and see that the worries here are warranted, I'll certainly post again with my impressions.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Where do you get the idea that the two statements are contradictory? Screen grabs, for example, show a waxy, DNR'd look for Patton. That is EXACTLY what people saw when they watched the disc, especially on large screens. The screen grabs did NOT show something different. The "whole story" qualifier has to do with the fact that you can't see motion in the screen grabs.

"Parroting" isn't the point. Either the transfer is lacking detail that could and should be there or it isn't. Your opinion doesn't make the detail magically reappear, no matter how much you rant against those who point out it's missing.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Agreed.

There are some of us who do care, do have the setup, and do have the knowledge and eye to see the difference between a good and a manipulated transfer. No doubt there's some bandwagon-jumping going on, but frankly I don't see how it's a bad thing, the more exposure this gets the better.

Yes, it might be annoying to those who don't care about DNR or old, poor-quality transfers, or having the best and most faithful image possible. But you know what else is annoying? People who say there's nothing wrong with it, it looks great, or that it's at least better than the DVD. HD and Blu-ray came along and promised perfection, and after waiting all this time and spending all this money I'm not going to sit here and settle for a product that might have been top quality a decade ago.

Also, proper framegrabs are generally a perfectly fine way to point out faults like this. They're only deemed worthless by the people who don't know what they're looking at and don't know how to analyze them, and seem to more often than not be the same ones who never see any problems when other people do.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Well, um.... simply put - If something doesn't "tell the whole story" how the Hell can it be an "accurate Reflection" ? A flawed reflection yes, accurate, no.


Is Patton going to be the poster child for arguing the legitamacy of screengrabs? and we're on the subject of Dark City, not Patton.


I have no "opinion" on the detail of Dark City. How could I? I don't have the disc in hand and haven't played it on my display so me having an "opinion" on the detail of DC would be idiotic.

I assume you've sampled the disc yourself right?

BTW - I've yet to see any "missing detail" from any BD screengrabs I've seen. What exactly is missing when you're watching this on your display? and where is an alternate (non-BD) screengrab that shows this "missing detail" which is so obvious to you?

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

The words "accurate" and "complete" mean different things. If I accurately say a car gets X number of horsepower, that doesn't say what color it is. There is NO contradiction there. As I said, you can't see motion in a screen grab. However, that does NOT mean the screen grab can't show the effects of DNR.

I can see why you hate having Patton used as an example, since the screen grabs of it DO match the experience of watching it with respect to how much it was DNR'd. It destroys your "you can't tell anything from screen grabs!" claim, as would a followup claim along the lines of "well yeah, Patton screen grabs were a good guide to how it looks, but that has nothing to do with Dark City screen grabs". It does indeed have a lot do to with Dark City.

What's missing is detail that was in the film source, detail that people KNOW to be there from watching the film (including myself), and that Blu Ray is KNOWN to be capable of showing. Not only is it capable of showing it, PROPER transfers DO show it. No matter how much you try to say "I can't tell anything from screen grabs", examples have been shown where the difference is quite noticeable to many people (if not to you). The goal, which is easily reachable and HAS been reached, is for the transfer to look like FILM.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

I agree. That´s why I rather wait comments from the people like Robert A. Harris..

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

From your words to God's ears!

Professionals like Robert Harris and Editors like Bill Hunt are put in a position that make them responsible for reporting the degree of quality produced from a blu-ray disc and in this day & age, especially what is lacking in high frequency information detail when compared to "FILM" sources.

Let us hope that the pressures of the studios don't begin to hinder the truth and that we still hear about real tests on 100" and above screens.

Paul

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

The shots that I linked to were NOT Dvd Beaver's They are NOT jpegs. They are PNG files.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lossless

"Some image file formats, like PNG or GIF, use only lossless compression..."

A few mouseovers (the repositioned BD shots might look darker than they should in IE):
2 - 1080i vs BD repositioned
4 - 1080i vs BD repositioned
5 - 1080i vs BD repositioned




And a direct screengrab can certainly show EE. Check around Riff Raff, errr... Richard O'brien's hat for instance. Or the side of Bill Hurt's face. Also there is little to no grain visible whatsoever. Or the cop, cropped here by Art.





Unless the cop has some special forcefield, I don't know, maybe to some that looks like a natural film image... Not to me. But some people can't even see EE in the first place.




And Rick, I hear ya about the LCD, I do have a DLP PJ myself.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

It seems to me that we are in an unfortunate situation where even many of the comparatively few transfers that the studios thought were acceptable for Blu-ray Disc aren't because someone (either the studio or the mastering house) has 'baked' DVNR and EE into the masters themselves. This most certainly won't be the last time we have this discussion, and I fear A Nightmare on Elm Street will be the same way.

That said, a lot of these movies aren't going to be able to justify the expense of a new master given BD's small marketshare. So you either take a BD that's not perfect, but clearly better than the SD DVD counterpart, or you wait, probably a long while, before you see the title 'done right'. At least Dark City doesn't appear quite as egregious as 'Patton' and 'The Longest Day' from the screenshots I've seen thus far.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

I wasn't referring to your links but DVDBeavers which I didn't see any problems with. I avoided your links because I figured they'd just be more shots of Coppola's Dracula. Go figure.


Jesus Harry Christ O'Mighty! I can't argue anymore with someone who doesn't understand the meaning of the word "accurate". Now you want to muddy the waters with "complete", where the fuck did that come from? BTW - Do you know the meaning of "inane"?

If not..............

in·ane 27CDB6E-AE6D-11cf-96B8-444553540000 minmax_bound="true" http: fpdownload.macromedia.com pub shockwave cabs flash swflash.cab#version='6,0,0,0"'>
























Audio Help/ɪˈneɪn/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[i-neyn]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation–adjective

1.	lacking sense, significance, or ideas; silly: inane questions.

2.	empty; void.

–noun

3.	something that is empty or void, esp. the void of infinite space.

---

[Origin: 1655–65; < L inānis]

—Related forms in·ane·ly, adverb

—Synonyms 1. pointless. See foolish.



anyway..........I had to drop the arguement earlier to go see the Dark Knight. Great flick BTW! Sold out show and got stuck in the second row, and because of sitting so close to the screen it amazed me how soft and lacking detail this film looked. Can't wait for the BD to come out so some screengrabber on AVS can post some pics and proclaim to their followers that there's "missing detail"! anyway it's been a long day so..........G'night folks!

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Nice...

Thanks for the wisecrack.
You seem very mature.



Nice language too....

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Screenshots maybe not perfect, but so far many of them have correctly identified the more notorius DNR releases.

If it walks like a duck...talks like a duck...