"Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29 - Page 12

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Fair enough. What should we do? Don´t you think, that the points have been made in this thread (to both ways)? To me, the "message" is quite clear..

"Dark City" is one Blu-ray-title of over 600. It´s time to let it go.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Perhaps, you should let it go too. If you don't like what some other member is posting then ignore it and move on. That process works well for me quite often.





Crawdaddy

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Ah, yes. Well, of course.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Exactly. This part of the HTF mission statement...


"We the members of the forum are interested in the film product to be recorded and reproduced as closely as possible to the way the original creator(s) of that particular film intended. We respect the integrity of all artists involved in creating the original film as well as those who helped bringing the product to a form suited to be used in a home theater environment.

The main goals of the discussions on the Home Theater Forum are to learn and to share: to learn more about the cinematographic art-form and the best techniques to present the films, and to share our knowledge with anyone who sincerely wants to benefit from the knowledge of his or her fellow members.

Discussions on this forum are polite, cordial and respectful. We do not hesitate to express our opinion on matters involved, knowing other members may or may not share those opinions. We will always respect opinions of other members, even if we do not share a particular opinion ourselves. We will not verbally attack other members in a personal way, but instead try to contribute to the common knowledge about, and understanding of all applicable topics discussed.

Currently we acknowledge the Digital Video Disc (DVD), and its high-definition successor(s), as the main, most advanced and most important medium for films to be (re-)presented in our homes. We certainly will not exclude other suitable media from our discussions, however. We strive for the highest achievable quality (video and sound) to be recorded on DVD, to be sold and/or rented in a form free for consumers to use in their homes. We want to advance films to be represented as complete as possible and with their full image, as intended by the original creators, intact. We want the best soundstage obtainable in a homely environment..."

What happened here? Nowadays very often if you express anything at all about a disc or a transfer in a negative way or point out areas where there could've been improvement you get sarcastic one liners, dismissive comments.
5 years ago people were complaining about DNR and EE and it seems like nothing's changed. What's the point of even having this forum if it's just going to be a BD disc cheerleading section?

It will really be a shame if every thread just turns into a big ad for each release and any negative criticism squashed. "Oh well, it's better than the DVD..." is not what BD and it's marketing promised.

The only reason I posted right away is because Jim had basically said that I was commenting on the disc without having seen it. He was right, so I watched it. Then I posted my observations. I'm not saying the disc is horrible or that it should be recalled. ("Gangs of New York", THAT should be recalled!) I'm just saying that it's disappointing in that it's a great film and it's too bad there are ANY issues.
I do recommend the disc for anyone who likes the film.


off soapbox

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Damn RIGHT!

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Let me make a couple of comments regarding your post. First off, I think part of the problem here is that some members have a low tolerance for contrary points of view and to be honest, the perceived constant spread of negativity that is being spread by some regarding the doom and gloom of HDM. Please, make note of the word "perceived". IMO, they have a right to challenge such comments within the framework of our posting guidelines. However, too many times, some of us get caught up in attacking the poster instead of their particular views you disagree with. Furthermore, being sarcastic and basically being a "smart ass" are not elements that are conducive to facilitating healthy and respectful debate. We basically make our disagreements more personal than they need to be. Some might try to label that as being passionate, but can't you be passionate and still respectful towards others that you don't agree with. It's alright to disagree, but that doesn't mean we have to be rude and hostile to those that don't share our points of view.

Right now, it appears we are having difficulties in balancing out the issues that are affecting this hobby in a negative way. There are too many comments that are dismissive of the severity of certain issues and in another regard, there are far too many comments that approach hyperbole regarding those issues. Such a balancing act will always be present due to a number of reasons regarding the personal differences that are present within us as HT enthusiasts. However, recognizing such differences should allow us to have spirited discussions about EE, excessive DNR and lossless audio without us ever losing our sense of respect towards others that are either more sensitive or tolerant of such issues. Our goal should be is to work together to improve our hobby without appearing like we're a bunch of combatants that are more interested in spreading our point of view like it's the only one that matters in our discussions. We all have equal value in expressing our opinions.

In closing, I find your last sentence in your post in direct conflict to what we need to do as a HT community and though, I understand your frustration, I think there is a better way to express such frustration.







Crawdaddy

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Agreed.
And on a lighter note, the film is excellent with the DC adding a few nice touches and the FX tweaks in the big end showdown done tastefully and seamlessly.
The scene where Rufus breaks through the glass separating him and Connely to grab her and kiss her as the music swells is a WONDERFUL romantic moment!

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Just popped in to clarify since I'm being quoted out of context again. I can't speak for, and was not speaking about the "Starship Troopers" disc. I was making the comment that audio being out of sync is far more noticeable to people then EE and other things, which the majority of consumers probably don't even think is a problem. Everyone with functioning eyes and ears can tell if the audio isn't matching. If those are the review numbers you quote are accurate on that release, then for me, the audio issue probably wouldn't of been a deal breaker for me, as it sounds like on ST it's hardly noticable. similar to how the reports of EE on Dark City wouldn't be the deal breaker either, since I genuinly want to see this cut of the movie, so this release well be "good enough".

And in respect to Crawford, I'll bow out again as I think I've made my opinion clear.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Funny, but that is the exact thought that came to mind several times as I watched this last night.
For the record, The DNR that has been used is probably just within my tolerance level. The EE was a greater distraction for me personally. That was the element that kept reminding me 'this is just nice looking video'.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Is there any way for us SD users to get a look at the content of the Blu-ray's "fact track"? I own both the original and new DVDs, and would like to know every little changed made to the DC. Thanks.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

I don't like out of sync audio but I can actually do something about it if I care enough (some video and audio processors have lip syn options). I can't remove the EE and DNR though if I don't like it. But I could add it, if I like it. So the solution is very simple. No EE and DNR on the source. People that want it can add it themselves during playback. Everybody is happy.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

I'll wait for the Holographic Video Disc.

But seriously, I do consider buying this on Blu-ray along with the DVD though. The DVD since it'll be an interim until I get a BD player and to build the library concerning the format. Doesn't matter if i'm still purchasing HDDVD since hey, alot of the titles are cheap and might as well go for it until I fully delve into Blu.
I figure I'll be able to find this for cheap on Amazon or DeepDiscount. Better start on the Blu titles anyway for my collection. Of course I'll work on the titles to "upgrade" obviously.
Damn I love this movie.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

whoops

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Xylon,

Welcome to HTF.

As not to use bandwidth, you might check with admins to see if you might link, but I would advise that examples be very telling, as a point under discussion here has been the relative value of frame grabs, which in many cases do not really tell a fully accurate story.

When they do...

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

I understand people who may be tired of seeing "negative" posts on the same issues (dnr, ee, etc) but at the same time I do not get why they get a bit pissy to those who bring these issues up and are upset. Like a previous poster said, at best bringing these issues up will get studios to provide a better product and at worst things won't change. Knowing that, why then is it so bad?

You know, back in the early days of DVD there were A LOT of posts complaining when a dvd was non-anamoprhic and there were posters who brushed that off as being "nit picky" and such. Look how that turned out for everyone. Why then can't people just see the same situation here? Seriously, it is the same issue to me and I can only guess people forgot about those early DVD days or simply were not around then.

As for the screengrab stuff...I understand people who say they shouldn't be taken as 100% proof of quality however EVERY single screengrab I have seen concerning dnr or EE has either been an exact indication of what i see on screen OR has looked better than the actual material in motion on my 106" screen. To me, screengrabs are worthwhile and 90% of the time they are posted by people who are big into video so one can usually put value in that. Basically, I have the ability to put 2 and 2 together and deduce that (say in this case) Dark City has dnr applied and EE which would most likely annoy me. I do not have to see it in motion to get this. I DO plan to rent it eventually or would pick it up for say 10-14 bucks (the price of the dir cut dvd is 12) but that is it.

I also think the "better than dvd" argument that many people (not just here but in general) have for blu-ray is somewhat silly. Of course it will be better than dvd but why should dvd be my standard? If they are catalog titles then chances are I already bought the dvd so why should I re-buy and pay an extra 50-100% for a disc simply because it may be better than dvd? Sorry but I want something as close as possible to the film presentation which means no detail killing dnr and EE.

I also find it odd that a reply is that people should just enjoy the content and not focus on issues. Well if I should not care about the quality then why even upgrade to the blu-ray in the first place? Again, on catalog titles that one already owns on dvd, why should one simply just be satisfied with the content and not put value in the presentation? Why pay more to re-buy the blu-ray?

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

I remember the numerous, heated arguments around anamorphic/nonanamorphic like they were yesterday. The same type of people coming in and bitching about all the "nitpickers".

"Hey, it looks better than the laserdisc! Quit complaining!!"

Well I can tell you that nonanamorphic dvd transfers that looked ok on my 32 inch tube television look very not ok on my 50 inch widescreen HDTV, and I am thankful for all the hyperbolistic bitching that made anamorphic standard for widecreen transfers.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

This is my first post so I sure hope I get all these things right as I want to respond to multiple issues.
You bring up several interesting points and just maybe I can bring some responses more in line with a "new" Blu-ray owner's perspective. Anyway, I think it's "bad" when posters that see dnr, ee, etc negatively attack people that don't see these issues or simply don't care about them. Myself, I don't see them. In fact it's kind of ironic that one of the titles getting the most heat, PATTON, is the reason I decided to buy my brother's Samsung 1400. To me the picture looked astounding on his big screen projector. If you hate dnr,ee, etc your beef is with the studios, not posters like me.
Really, I wasn't posting back than. I was following this via THE DIGITAL BITS which did some great work in that area. I would have thought that posters back than would have been solidly behind adoption of anamorphic DVDs over non-anamorphic titles as the benefits were so obvious.
I like screen grabs too, but for a different reason. I think they're great tools for displaying just how superior a specific BD title is over the standard DVD version. This, for me, is why I paruse those type of posts to help me decide if it's worth it to upgrade on titles that only have partial interest for me. I could never use screen shots seriously for any other reason.
Speaking for myself I will be buying certain BR titles that are "special" to me. Don't we all have certain titles that just, well - make us 'feel good.' Of course, these are the titles that we've upgrading over the years - VHS to Laserdisc to DVD and now to Blu-ray. The "standard" I use is the last format version of the title I bought. I must say that every Blu-ray title I've seen so far has simply overwhelmed me with the picture and sound qualities over the standard DVD title.
Here, I think, is the crux of this issue. What's more important - content or presentation??? I say, why can't we have them both. But, deep down I guess I'm more of a "content" kind of guy. When I watch a movie that's immersive I don't see things that other people see like "forcefields" and/or "halos" and, of course, I don't go looking for them either. Perhaps this explains why reviewers on internet sites rarely agree with each other even on titles like PATTON. Anyway, I'm very optimistic because if I liked PATTON, I may never be disappointed.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

I can understand that you tought Patton looked fantastic. It's very pretty. The problem is, it isn't authentic. It's historical revisionism and it upsets purists like myself. Patton the Bluray looks nothing like Patton the film, and I would think that is directly opposite of what the Home Theater Forum should be championing.

I certainly do not believe in belittleing others that like these sort of revisionist transfers but I also do not believe that it is a matter of opinion whether the studios should be altering pictures in this way or not. It's historical revisionism and it's wrong.

I understand that film is an organic medium and Patton can very well look different from cinema to cinema depending on the generation of the print and quality of the labwork. But I am certain it should not look like "Patton: Presented by Pixar". I think, when doing transfers for older films, aiming for something as close to the first generation IP or answer print is quite ok. And if there is no remaining IP or anwer print then of course there will be some guesswork involved.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

You may have thought that, but it is a fact that some people back then WERE saying that those pushing for anamorphic were being too picky. Some of them were the very same people who are now saying that some are too picky over the DNR/EE issue.

That's where many of us are saying you and others are making your mistake. The whole point of Blu Ray is that it brings us much closer to the look of FILM. THAT is the standard we should judge it against, not older formats. And no, such a standard is not "unreasonable" or a too-picky demand for "perfection", because some transfers DO have that look. It's NOT that difficult at all. In fact, it's actually EASIER, because it requires LESS processing.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Hi Frank, welcome to the forum.

Everyone has their own litmus test for what they find acceptable or not. For me, it boils down to a simple qestion- "when I project the image on my wall, does it look like film or does it look more like good video blown up large?"
What I've found is, HD resolution in and of itself is NOT the big determiner in this. I've seen many sd DVDs in the last year that have a more analog, film-like look. At the same time I'm seeing more and more Bds that, while having more 'oomph' from color space and res boosts, curiously look like digital video.
Just because that digital 'oomph' may be a look liked by many people, doesn't make it the ideal to strive for because it's not an objective ideal.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

So now you´re kinda hinting, that people who in this thread have said comments like *Dark City has some issues, but it´s still far from being truly "bad"* (--which would be what I´m personally saying *at this point* - this is based on the comments on this thread and yes, those screencaps, I haven´t seen the film yet myself--) are the ones that "accept" issues like non-anamorphic transfer, pan&scan, etc? I hope not, since obviously you´re wrong (like I said, IF you implied that..)

The problem now is, that you´re using this "if you´re not with us - you´re against us" approach, like saying that these "nitpickers" (word used in this thread, not necessarily my choice) are on the holy mission against the big studios and their use of DNR/EE , and everyone should boycott this release or something. Like "you can´t enjoy this film" now when it has some EE or something like that. At all. I´m exaggerating a bit of course, but just to make my point..

This obviously is not very "black and white" issue and at least to me life is too short. There´s always going to be more mediocre releases (whether it´s the source, DVD/BD production or some other issue - there are also plenty of pure "opinions"), and yes, I still buy some of those (since the alternatives are even more mediocre - simple as that), since I want to see the film in Blu-ray. With some titles, I just wait for the sales. I won´t buy e.g. "Patton" until it´s "on sale" and probably it´s going to be the same thing with "Dark City". If buying these films makes me a "lesser person" among the fellow movie and A/V buffs, so be it. At the end of the day I probably won´t even care.. I know where I stand (I love films and respect A/V values) and it´s good enough for me.

We all here are probably "against" digital manipulations and issues in that nature, but this is not about "taking sides". Every new release (DVD, Blu-ray) is a "new case". It usually takes more than 1-2 screencaps. You read the reviews, forum info, learn about the history behind the film (also techinical issues) and eventually you just might actually see the film yourself. Whatever the case is, you make your own judgments based on the info at hand. At the end of the day, "RobertR" can´t say what "Jari K" should or shouldn´t watch. And vice versa.

So: "Dark City" has some issues, mainly some EE and perhaps some minor DNR. Are we against these type of issues (digital manipulations, etc) by the studios? Yes. All of us? Probably. Should we boycott this release? No. Why not? Everyone will make their own decisions eventually and the message has been already sent with e.g. this thread. Huge debate - and that message will be buried. Is the film "unwatchable"? No.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

You read a hell of a lot into my comments, none of which is supported by anything I said. How does "some people" become "everyone in this thread", and "don't think DNR/EE is very bothersome" become "not bothered by P&S, etc"?? Please don't erect strawmen, it does nothing to further the discussion.

Some of us choose to think in terms of excellence rather than levels of mediocrity.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

(emphasis is my doing)
As a purist you definitely have a heavy cross to bare and I don't envy you.
As a non-purist, I just watch films for pleasure so it doesn't concern me if PATTON is or isn't "authentic" and may or may not suffer from "historical revisionism" or, even, if PATTON the BD looks like PATTON the movie since these esoteric concepts are foreign to me.
Of this I am certain, however, and that is the BD title blows away my old standard DVD version by a huge margin which is my main concern. I'm quite happy with the upgrade.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Not all my comments were obviously directed to you, it was also general babbling about these issues. As long as you got the point.


"Some of us"? Not that "mediocre"-camp, where I´m at the moment? Seriously speaking, now you´re probably "reading" a bit too much into my comments. I´m sure you got the point, though. You want the best presentation of "Dark City" on home video, you get the BD. If you don´t want BD (some EE, etc), then you stick with the DVD (well, I guess the SD DVD has also EE, etc, since it´s from the same source). Simple as that. My point was, that buying that BD doesn´t mean that you suddenly "ignore" EE/DNR, etc. You just live with those issues this time, since you want to see the film. For "some of us", this is just one film and after that we move on. On to the next debate. I´m sure it won´t that far away..

But now, say "goodnight to the bad guy". I´m going to sleep..

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Yes you do. But you also let people know that this isn't the best possible presentation on home video (and EASILY possible at that).

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Sorry, but my "standard" has always been to weigh the over all expense of buying into a new format against any perceived improvement in picture/audio quality over the old format. To be honest, I had no intention of buying into Blu-ray before the holiday season (just too expensive). But, my brother gave me a deal on his old player that I couldn't refuse. I think the "point" of Blu-ray (beyond the obvious business aspects) is, or should be, to provide significant improvement in PQ/AQ over standard DVD - which it does quite well in my opinion. "Perfection" is a word I would not use in connection with any entertainment media format.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

When the original film-like look is not only promoted as achievable, but IS achievable and HAS been achieved, we shouldn't settle for improvement over an older video format, but instead hold people to the bar we KNOW they can reach. If you went into a car dealership that advertised and promoted its cars as getting 45 miles to the gallon, and you knew that other owners of the car WERE getting 45, would you be happy with getting 30 just because it was "better than your old car"? I think not.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

So how is the director's cut of the movie? If the original was, say, an 8 out of 10. What would you guys give the new cut?

~T

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

I'd like to see if I could spot what the fuss is about but I can't rent it. My local BlockBuster saw fit to bring in 4 copies of what looks to be some straight to video crapfest called "Never Back Down" and zero copies of this movie. Their competitor couldn't be bothered to bring any Blu copies, but they did get the SD DVD version. After the Space Chimps retired they must have been hired by the procurement department of BB and Rogers Video.

Re: "Dark City: Director's Cut" coming to Blu-ray on July 29

Havent watched it yet, too busy reading this thread.