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Any HDMI receivers w/ phantom center, etc?

post #1 of 9
3/18/08 at 10:22pm
Thread Starter 
Hi.

I'm looking into getting an HDMI receiver later this year. The Onkyo 805 seems like a good fit for me although I'm not too thrilled that it'll run all analog audio through its ADA circuitry (and still not do any bass management, etc), instead of keeping the signal completely analog.

One concern I have though is whether this receiver (or some other option) has a phantom center mode (and also redirection of LFE for a sub-less setup) for a 4.0 surround setup for the various lossless surround formats. Currently, I'm just running a 4.0 setup in my small HT and would prefer to keep it that way for the forseeable future. I really can't benefit much w/ a subwoofer since I can't let it rip in my living situation. And I'd rather not have to get a center speaker that matches well w/ my mains along w/ the proper setup needed for any real benefits w/ that.

So does anyone know if the Onkyo 805 or some other comparable HDMI receiver offers good downmixing from the various lossless surround formats to 4.0? And of course, downmixing and good bass management, etc. for 5.1 analog input would be great too as I do listen to the occasional SACD (and currently can't really make use of surround music tracks on SACD).

Thanks.

_Man_
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post #2 of 9
3/19/08 at 5:49am

Re: Any HDMI receivers w/ phantom center, etc?

Every A/V receiver should handle both those options. With the Onkyo, you just run Audessey and it will setup the phantom and no sub mode automatically.
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post #3 of 9
3/19/08 at 10:32am
Thread Starter 

Re: Any HDMI receivers w/ phantom center, etc?

That works even for DTS's various formats? I was under the impression that DTS didn't allow that in the past, but that may only have been back during the earlier days of DVD.

Thanks.

_Man_
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post #4 of 9
3/19/08 at 3:22pm

Re: Any HDMI receivers w/ phantom center, etc?

^ Don't know exactly when DTS changed their standards, but my Technics SA-DA8 receiver, a 2001 model, is set up for 4.1 mode and with DTS tracks, the center *is* downmixed to the front mains.

Concerning sacd multichannel playback: the surround soundfield is generated using just the front mains and the rear surrounds. The center is mostly just used to add some stability to the front soundstage & obviously a sub aids bass reproduction. Actually, use of the center is still a controversial issue among surround music mixing professionals - for example, Elliot Scheiner one of the most respected surround pros almost never uses it.
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post #5 of 9
3/19/08 at 7:00pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Any HDMI receivers w/ phantom center, etc?

Thanks, Lance.

The ancient Technics DD/DTS decoder (that dates back to circa 1999?) I use doesn't allow downmixing of DTS.

I was also under the impression that the Onkyo 805 doesn't do bass management (and distance/level adjustments) via its 5.1 analog input though (per the Secrets' review). It's kinda odd -- but maybe they wanted to leave those features for their higher end models -- since the 5.1 input apparently goes through the ADA circuitry anyway regardless of settings.

Anyone know if there are some other comparably good receiver in similar price range that offer those features?

I could also go for an a/v preamp instead, if one fits the bill, since I do already have a good 5-channel power amp, but I don't think I can up the ante for the much raved Intregra 9.8 though.

_Man_
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post #6 of 9
3/20/08 at 5:29pm

Re: Any HDMI receivers w/ phantom center, etc?

The only receivers/preamps I've seen apply full BM/Delay processing to the multichannel inputs are the units based on the Sherwood-Newcastle P-965 and the Outlaw 970/1070. I would guess the high end units like Lexicon or Anthem probably do as well, but that gear's above my pay grade.

What makes you think the 805 does ADC on the multichannel inputs? Page 29 of the 805's manual shows analog in passing straight through to analog out. There's even a subwoofer attenuation function intended only for the 7.1 inputs. The listening mode chart also indicates that no extra processing can be applied to the multichannel analog input, unlike the 2 channel analog inputs. The 805 and 875 share the same owner's manual, but I doubt the 905 behaves any differently.

What SACD player are you using? If it has an HDMI output, there's no reason to use the multichannel analogs. The current generation Onkyos and Yamaha will even accept DSD directly over HDMI instead of needing the player to convert DSD to PCM first.

All receivers I've ever looked at can be configured with no center channel, regardless of codec. Speaker setup is a global parameter and has to be codec agnostic. Of course, this won't work on the multichannel analog inputs of most (all?) receivers since they simply pass the signals directly to the preamp section...the downmix would need to happen at the source.

You might want to reconsider a real center channel for another reason. There's a thread at AVS where some folks dug into the DD spec and found that Dolby requires the decoder to automatically apply DRC (Night mode) in the absence of a center channel.

-Brent
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post #7 of 9
3/21/08 at 8:56am
Thread Starter 

Re: Any HDMI receivers w/ phantom center, etc?

Thanks for all that info, Brent.

The ADA conversion issue was brought up by the Secrets' review I read, but the reviewer didn't really go into much details -- he did physically open up the 805 to look around. You can find that part of the review at this link:

Product Review

RE: my SACD player, I have a Denon 2910 uni-player. I was under the impression it didn't pass DSD over its HDMI for SACD playback, but maybe I need to doublecheck that. Would be great if it does pass DSD over HDMI. But I suppose if it passed PCM (converted from DSD) over HDMI, that's probably fine enough (for surround recordings) anyway. Of course, if the receiver *will* run all analog inputs through ADA conversion anyway, then PCM over HDMI would probably be better than that.

_Man_
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post #8 of 9
3/21/08 at 9:08am

Re: Any HDMI receivers w/ phantom center, etc?

I've read that review before, but even rereading the page you linked, I don't see anything that suggests an ADC-DAC step happening on the 7.1 inputs. He even explicitly said the 805 has no provisions for digitizing the 5.1 analog inputs. To be picky, it's probably just an editing oversight, but the 805 has a 7.1 multichannel input, not 5.1.

-Brent
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post #9 of 9
3/21/08 at 12:54pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Any HDMI receivers w/ phantom center, etc?

That's odd. I coulda sworn that he did not explicitly say it offers "no option to digitize the 5.1 analog input" in that particular line when I originally read the article a few weeks ago. Did it get updated since then?

Oh well, then at least that clears that up. Thanks.

_Man_
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