A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray - Page 2

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

I finally got to viewing this on Saturday and while I thought it was decent the stuff about it being a classic is IMO mind boggling. Well, I should clarify what I mean by that...

It seems that so many movie buffs talk about the classics and imply that movie made 35+ years ago are far superior to what is out today. This would be fine if it is true but it isn't. If Bonnie and Clyde was made today it would get TRASHED by pretty much every critic for fairly poor acting, a weak script, etc. but somehow it is magically called a classic because it was made in 67. Those issues are somehow overlooked.

I am getting pretty tired of how movies made back in "that time" get a free pass for what I can only guess is simple nostalgia. I understand a movie like this or other movies in that generation may have opened the door to different things in cinema but it doesn't mean that acting and script writing should be overlooked. Either those acting and writing today are far superior to people of that generation or again, movies from back then are simply held to a different standard because they are well, old and somehow the human mentality is to act like everything in the past is a classic and stuff today is junk- you see it in pretty much every industry and IMO it really annoys me.

Now make no mistake, I am not saying this movie is garbage but based on the writing and acting, it is a slightly above average movie at best and isn't a classic because to me, a classic is a movie that is great on every level not simply because it may have done something that up to that time hadn't been done which I guess Bonnie & Clyde did with on screen violence.

I saw that the woman who played Blanche won the Oscar for supporting actress and I am shaking my head as to why. If someone today did the exact same type of "acting" (screaming hysterically and smiling out of the blue when mad/upset doesn't qualify as good acting to me) they'd get a razzie award.

It may come of as me being biased against movies made back in the day but that simply isn't true. North By Northwest is one of my favourite movies of all time, Rear Window, most other Hitchcock, Citizen Kane, The Professionals are all movies I really enjoy and could watch many times over...I am a fan of great "classics" but I find that there are as many mediocre movies made then that are tagged as being "fine American cinema" while movies that are made today which are clearly superior in every way are considered to be trash or average. It really is annoying. Now I am not trying to compare technical differences but things like writing and acting- things to me that should not have really changed over time. Again, a movie like North By Northwest had great writing and acting so it isn't like back in that generation people simply didn't have the ability to do these things.

The amusing thing to me is that in 40-60 years people who criticize recent cinema as being inferior to the 60s/70s will look back and call these films classics.

As for the quality of the Bonnie & Clyde blu-ray, I found it to be fantastic. Again, I thought the movie was decent but hardly worth the hype it gets because of average acting and writing.

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

That would be Estelle Parsons, former head of the Actors Studio and still one of America's leading actresses at the age of 80. (She's currently playing one of the toughest leading roles on Broadway.)

I'd give her the Oscar today. I also think the film holds up, although I agree with you that it would be heavily criticized if it were released today. It was heavily criticized back then; I remember it well. As a matter of both narrative and presentation, it never was and never will be a conventional film. I think that's precisely why it holds up so well. It's not quite like anything that's come before or since.

This opposition between old and new that you're positing is a complete phony. There are always questions of individual taste -- yours obviously doesn't warm to Bonnie and Clyde -- but no one with any sense automatically rejects current cinema and embraces that from some prior period. If you can find someone who actually does so, I'd like to meet him or her.

You're a relatively new member; so you'll have to take my word when I say that I'm a huge fan of contemporary cinema. Actually, you don't have to; you can just check my posts in the Movies area. Or even my occasional disc reviews (of which there's a pair on the next page and another one on the way). And yet I also think B&C is a great film, long after its explicit violence was exceeded (by Peckinpah and just about everyone else). Fit that in your paradigm.

M.

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

&
When does trash not equal "garbage"? ;-)
Believe me, if "RW" was released today it would get "trashed" as boring and/or pretentious (must likily both & the set design and non-main actors would be ripped to shreads as well!).
Let's not get carried away! Time will not be kind too "Baby Mama", "27 Dresses", "Made of Honor", & all.
That's going too help more people appreciate this film in the future.

Welcome too the forum.

EDitEDbyED:
Luv "RW"!!!

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

The late 1960s were a time of great change in the film industry. Method acting had come to film about 10 years before, and in the late 60s filmmakers were experimenting with all kinds of techniques behind the camera that almost seemed to be inspired by "the method".

Bonnie and Clyde is highly regarded, not only because it is a great film, which I believe it is, but also because Arthur Penn was really pushing the limits of what was considered acceptable in film making at the time. It truly was a ground breaking film.

Doug

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

Somebody needs to see some lousy and middlin' movies from the 60's before they tear down such an excellent film. Bad films get made every year. That goes for now or any other decade.

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

FWIW, I don't believe the responses really adequately address the core issue that Rob/Loregnum brought up. While B&C was no doubt a great film in its time, I think the question is still very valid whether it still holds up quite that well today. It *was* great, but is it *still* great today?

Considering the nature of the matter, perhaps, it'd be good to first consider what does "great" mean? Must a great film hold up equally well across all time for a wide audience (or maybe just a select group?)? OR can a film still be considered great if it gets more lukewarm reception at certain times as long as it does not quickly fade into oblivion?

FWIW, since the history of cinema is actually so very short compared to most other art forms/traditions, maybe a look at some other art forms/traditions might help answer that question. In the world of Western European classical music, it would seem great music need not necessarily be equally great across all times to all audiences, eg. Mozart seems to get varying reception from time to time (and certainly, I'm not a fan of much of his music though I do enjoy some of it) as does Bach among many others. And for the past couple decades, it would seem that entire tradition has been fading away to be replace by... Britney Spears & Co. , but should we now consider all that old stuff to be not great anymore just because the great majority population of today is no longer all that interested in it? But perhaps like B&C (and various other "great films"), the great music of centuries past are often/usually notable for breaking new ground that either immediately or eventually find a strong, admiring reception from a substantial portion of the potential audience, (perhaps most importantly) including those who would then draw from that "old stuff" to create the next "great works" and thus continuing a sort of organic progression into the future. Well, at least that seems to be a characteristic of music that is considered great and have stood the test the time -- and that would seem the case w/ a great many other fields and art forms/traditions also...

_Man_

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

BTW, I too just enjoy B&C, but do not exactly love it. But I can still see why it's considered a great film (and I can admire it for what it is, which is a bit different than "loving" it). I'm also sure there are plenty of films I love that others would not consider great or might even hate too.

_Man_

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

Rob/Loregnum brought up no such question. He says, about B&C, "based on the writing and acting, it is a slightly above average movie at best". This has nothing to do with a changing notion of quality but "simple nostalgia", because "things like writing and acting . . . should not have really changed over time".

Now, you may want to talk about changing notions of "greatness", or Mozart vs. Britney Spears, but that's your own hobbyhorse.

M.

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

I'm trying to figure out *why* and *how* he arrived at those comments and then address them. Afterall, he doesn't just come to his conclusions out of the blue in a vacuum. Certainly, I can see why he might think what he thinks and why it's related to (or even a product of sorts of) what I brought up explicitly. Otherwise, replies will just end up like putting a bandaid on a wound that could very well run much deeper than the surface (and either be caused by something far worse or is leading to that).

Personally, I find The Graduate to be a better case of "nostalgia" and such than B&C, but I'm sure plenty of folks won't agree w/ me on that either. And yes, I can understand why it's considered "great", but doesn't mean it quite "works" for me.

And yes, I suppose it's also quite possible that he's just a troll -- hope that was ok to say.

_Man_

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

Count me as being on the opposite side of the fence when it comes to Bonnie & Clyde vs. The Graduate. I am a lover of classic films and modern films, but I found The Graduate to be tremendously overrated. Well-crafted, but overrated.

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

Well, not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone in particular, but I have a general dislike of the form of mid to late 60s movies. I haven't an artsy bone in my body unfortunately, so it seems to me lots of the mid to late 60s films are purposely using "confusion" and "randomness" to substitute for art. OTOH, I have no way of being able to tell... B&C never bothered me, I find it one of the better films from that confusing (to me) period. BTW, I was a teenager then... Perhaps the movie "confusion" represented the times, something I can only slightly appreciate in retrospect.

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

"B&C" holds up better than a lot of other US "sixties" movies cause it is a period piece.
It's a '67 film about the depression (and "gangsters").
"The Graduate" is a '67 movie about '67 (and "plastics").

A little off topic, however I not only know "TAoRH" to be a great film of '38, butt timeless as well for its portrayal of Sherwood forest in the days of Nottingham castle. Whereas my fave flick of all time is filmed (in '32) and set in '33 and will always be & should always be a movie about that time. With only the gadgets from that time to travel, capture, & show Kong too the world.

"B&C" is what it is!

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

You could try asking.

M.

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

True that though I would've thought he'd elaborate further in response to others (and myself) w/out our asking, if he actually had more to say. OTOH, his answer may not necessarily tell us anymore than what he already wrote. Afterall, we're not just talking about the weather at that point (though complicated that too could be ), so a simple question like "is it gonna rain?" won't do. And if I were to ask someone who merely heard a weather forecast or felt a few rain drops "why and how it rains?", that doesn't mean he'd be able to answer it w/out some help.

Anyhoo, maybe Rob/Loregnum doesn't actually care and won't actually revisit this thread again for all we know, :p but OTOH, the relevant subject/discussion that came about is interesting enough anyhow.


Hmmm... I too started wondering about that when The Graduate came to mind. I agree that's a big factor that impacts how each one of us may perceive each classic film.

Surely, that's largely why I'm not that fond of Star Trek TOS and much prefer TNG (though I enjoy the better TOS films as well). TOS just feels way to outdated to work as sci-fi/fantasy for my sensibilities though the underlying themes, ideas, etc. are certainly no weaker than TNG.

RE: all the responses that reiterate that B&C is a lot better than its contemporaries, that's just it and doesn't really provide a good rebuttal to Rob/Loregnum's point. To put it another way, would you think BD is great if *all* it gives you is something merely better than DVD rather than actually living up to the promise. And what if/when the next big step forward comes out? Should BD still be considered great at that point, not just a historical footnote? No, I don't mean to equate home video formats to the art and craft of filmmaking, but it does raise/add to a valid point for discussing what makes a film "great" (and whether a film like B&C should be considered "great" or just mere "nostalgia"... and why)...

_Man_

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

^ I think you have to take the era the film was made into context when "rating" it. Definitely.

Especially the acting styles, which was originally brought up.

As far as the technical presentation, I think this goes without saying...

With a really good movie with good acting, IMO you don't even notice its age. Whereas with all sorts of effects (often substituting for substance) you can notice right away.

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

Let me take a stab at this....

I consider Bonnie & Clyde as one of the all-time greatest
classic films.

What made this film a classic was its impact on the era it was
released. I believe this film came out at the same time as
Peckinpah's The Wild Bunch, and both films served up a
new kind of violence and bloodshed that had never been seen before.

I saw Bonnie & Clyde in 1976 when I was 13 years old. The
film had such an impact on me that it has remained a favorite of
mine some 32 years later.

Those of us that look at these films as true classics probably
grew up during the time of their release or soon after. The
combination of the film's themes and the era it was released
have a long-standing impact on how we perceive its value in years
to come.

Maybe I am just talking out of my arse here, but as much as
some consider "Star Wars" to be a classic sci-fi film, I think it
will be judged much differently in a few more decades as times
change and film continues to branch into areas it never has before.

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

I agree w/ that to a good extent. However, I also think something truly great (at least in art and craft) should be able to transcend the original context to be able to speak to and substantively move viewers/listeners who are not part of the original context. Certainly, that seems to be how most other art forms and crafts are judged where greatness is concerned.

Also, I agree w/ previously made points that part of the greatness of a particular piece of great art and/or craft is whether it breaks new ground and substantially influences and shapes the future of the medium.

And yes, I'd agree that B&C certainly seems to meet all these criteria as near as I can tell so far.

RE: Ron's mention of Star Wars, perhaps, it will become the Star Trek TOS of tomorrow for all we know -- in fact, it probably is well on its way right now. Certainly, I can see that nostalgia plays a very significant role in how many of us still love those films, particularly the OT (whereas many of us, myself included, certainly don't seem to afford the same kind of warm-and-fuzzy reception to the Prequels)...

_Man_

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

Well, now we are putting our own personal stage of growth into the film rating context. That would certainly influence our opinion, especially if we were quite young (to teenager) and very impressionable. (When I first saw SW it was at a drive-in and the film was just released. I was an "adult", so they say, so I don't rate it nearly so high as those who grew up with it.) I still get plenty impressed with new films I see now, but in a different way. I do believe some of them will be viewed as classics some day, especially those with lots of acting and much less effects flash.

As far as the artistic merit of any film, I have no means to address that, I have to believe what you tell me... Some films are just so good though that even I can get it.

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

IOW, you just want to talk. If only you would just do so, instead of trying to make it sound like you're answering a question that, in fact, was never actually asked. (And spare me the nonsense about trying to understand Loregnum's thought process. If that's what you were doing, you did a lousy job, since you arrived at a result that was contradicted by his own words.)

BTW, your initial claim that no one had addressed whether B&C "still holds up quite that well today" was also inaccurate. I did, in my first post in this thread. And that discussion is now ongoing.

M.

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

Since the art/craft is created by opinionated humans for opinionated humans, all of whom are going through a growing process (in one way or another) at all times, I'd hazard a not so humble opinion that it's impossible for us to do that any other way. To believe we can be truly objective about film rating/critiquing would be pure denial (both of the process itself as well as our own humanity). And even if it were possible to be truly objective (as a computer or a robot or some such), I'd think the results (and the cause) would be pretty irrelevant to us in practice anyhow.

BTW, in case it was unclear, I don't mean that a great work of art/craft must "speak to and substantively move" different audiences all the same way or to quite the same degree -- and I alluded to that in my original example about music from the Western European classical tradition.

_Man_

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

I was "trying", but I never said my first post on the subject was some definitive, final word on the matter -- it was meant to move the discussion along instead of just repeating the same old thing. That first post was more about fleshing out some of what needs to be considered in order to figure out how he (and we) come to conclusions about whether B&C is a great film or just "nostalgia" or the like.

Yes, I guess I could certainly be more clear on that.


Perhaps I am just walking an all too fine line about this, but I went back to reread your original response to him, and I still do not see where you adequately addressed that issue for him. It basically read to me like you "said so" and not too much more (beyond the remark about it *not* being "conventional" w/out clarifying what you meant and whether that is enough to justify the "great" label).

Anyway, I'm not really arguing that B&C is less than great (in its own right) anyhow though it probably plays better to you than to me.

_Man_

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

That depends on who's judging the adequacy. IMO, it was a sufficient response for someone who, to borrow your phrase, might be a troll and who has yet to signal any interest in an ongoing dialogue.

Some people just seem to enjoy splitting hairs.

M.

Re: A few words about...™ Bonnie and Clyde -- in Blu-Ray

True that. And so far, it's certainly playing out that way.

I would also add that I probably should've just dispensed w/ the lead-in remark (about other's responses) as that could easily get me into trouble, stepping on toes, even though that was not really my intention. Probably should've just said something like "here's a somewhat different take on the matter" or some such instead.


Not sure if I "enjoy" it per se, but I guess I do resemble that in practice.

_Man_