Great article on all the post format war doomsaying... - Page 3

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

On the same projector, no one has any trouble telling the difference between SD and HD cable. I suspect a good 1080p projector would make the difference somewhat more noticeable, but when we think of how many people have HDTVs and are content to watch SD cable on it, I think the issue about the masses not caring as much as enthusiasts about better PQ is a big one. When I ask my non-enthusiast (almost all of my) friends why they like DVD more than VHS--the first response is always about convenience (no rewind, skipping chapters, takes up less space on my shelf, won't wear out or break, looks better--in just about that order). When anyone asks me, I always say better PQ and SQ--that's well ahead of convenience for me. But I'm not a typical consumer (nor is anyone who hangs around here, I suspect).

As for future purchases, I will privilege the HDM version where available, but I will still buy SD titles for use in the classroom (I teach history and my research area is cinematic history). With HD DVD combos, it was easier on the wallet (though more in theory, as there weren't that many combo titles suitable for my purposes before the format went belly up). Now, some of those SD titles I will NOT buy in HDM, simply because, outside of the classroom, I'm unlikely to sit down and just watch them for fun. So even knowing full well the advantages of owning the HDM version, there are constraints (some economic, some practical) on ALWAYS buying an HDM version.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Sale prices have risen since the holidays. MSRP has stayed identical.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Michael,
What you said is very true. This is an HT enthuasiast site and I'm surprised by some of the comments expressed here in regard to HDM versus upconverted SD DVD.

When I was doing my "A" versus "B" test of Casablanca with the HD DVD and SD DVD, I teared up when it became apparent to me of the differences between the presentations.





Crawdaddy

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Naturally, not every film title will expose the same level of increased clarity with 1080p versus 480p source material.

However...

To your point about your 720p display:

my projetor at home is also 720p. And I notice a reasonable improvement with HD material, but it's not always overwhelming. I can state absolutely that a native 1080p device that is able to reveal full 1920 x 1080p pixel integrity makes a BIG difference in allowing the real improvement of 1080p software to come through.

Many times DVDs and BDs that I've watched on my own projetor and thought "not that much difference" (Room With A View) show a very different result when I do the same comparison on my friend's 1080p projector... there the BD always looks much better. Keep in mind that the DVD also looks better on his projector than on my projector... so SD material looks great in 1080p (better than it does in 720p). It's just that real 1080p looks better still, and you need that full resolution to get the full impact.

With direct-view flat panel 1080p displays becoming more popular and cheaper by the day, the ability for the average consumer to see a dramatic improvement with real HD software gets better with each 1080p HDTV sale.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Sounds familiar. Agreed Michael.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

That's an entirely reasonable approach, and I never meant to suggest you aren't an enthusiast.

Note, however, that you've revised your initial statement. Now you're saying that you'll buy "those that I love on HDM". The initial statement from which I quoted was (emphasis added):

My point was simply that just because a film lacks obvious effects doesn't mean it won't show substantial benefit from HDM resolution. Any film that ones loves should be worth it.

My own approach is to keep a list of the ones I want and wait for a sale (like the Deep Discount sale) or for price drops. I've had some good luck lately with Universal catalogue titles simply because of the HD DVD clearouts.

I initially thought Midnight Run wouldn't benefit much from HDM, because it's primarily a character piece. I was so wrong, because I forgot that it's also a cross-country chase film, done almost entirely on location. De Niro and Grodin are hilarious, but they're even funnier when you can see just how stuck in the middle of nowhere they really are.

M.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

To me that falls at the opposite extreme, and it's equally problematic. If I don't see an HDM version on the horizon, and it's a film I really want, I'll happily buy the SD version and do whatever I can to make it look its best. I thoroughly enjoyed re-watching La Vie En Rose that way (although, now that Marion Cotillard has won the Oscar, maybe Warner/Picturehouse will put it on Blu-ray; hope springs eternal). I've bought a lot of recent arthouse fare like Angel-A and Paris, Je T'Aime, and cult classics like Peter's Friends, because even if that stuff some day makes it to HDM, it'll probably be years.

I'm a movie enthusiast, not a format enthusiast. If I love the film and it's only available on VHS, then that's how I'll watch it. Mercifully, that hasn't been true for a long time.

M.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

There you go..... I just bought three film noirs released by Fox on SD DVD because I don't know if these films will ever make it to HDM, but they're here today on SD DVD which is the best video format they're currently available on.





Crawdaddy

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Well thought out and well written and I share most of your sentiments 100%. I agree that HDM will remain a niche format for many years to come or at least until and unless "downloads" via the internet and/or satellite delivery systems become the next format of choice. Myself, I think one of HDM's biggest obstacle to mass acceptance besides price, of course, is limited selection of titles. Does it really matter if Blu-ray hardware prices are discounted next X-mas if the consumer still has a pathetic selection of titles to choose from. Even if the studios release several hundred titles by years end that would amount to perhaps 600+ titles. At years end, when compared to SD DVD, SD DVD had over 4,000 titles and was adding titles at the rate of 200 per month!!! Goes to show you how "special" SD DVD is when you consider being able to pick and choose from 90,000 titles after only 11 years of existence. I saw a post where a Laserdisc fan mentioned 20,000 titles after 20 years. Not bad.....but really sad when compared to SD DVD.
You mentioned upconversion as a hinderance to HDM adoption and you are so correct. I think the upconversion capabilities of newer players is simply astounding. I have the HD-A2 and it has given new life to my SD DVD collection especially since those boys that do the encoding for new SD DVD discs are doing a marvelous job. I'll bet you if I pulled 10 people off the street and showed them a recent SD DVD title upconverted to 1080i on a 56" or less HDTV, they would think it was HiDef as the PQ is that good!!!
Of course, the absolute biggest competion to HDM is nothing more than OTA/DBS/Cable HD services that we all take for granted....so much so, that we can't even get a decent discussion going. When consumers buy that new HDTV naturally most will subscribe to some HD service and be quite content with that service.
So taking all the above into consideration....sure, HDM will remain a niche format. I'm looking fow'd to, "How the West Was Won." and I may even buy several other titles this year.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Exactly it! SD DVD has been good to all of us. OF my favorite films(there are alot) there is only one that hasn't yet made it to SD DVD. Its still an awesome format. If given a choice between BD, and SD, then yeah, go Blu-Ray, but SD DVD's are going to be around for along time, and I will continue to support it until the very end.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I own a Blu-ray player, yea, i know you guys know that. But just in case you dont know...i do.
That wont keep me from buying The Mist on DVD when it comes out, or that old schlock film The Car. I buy anime on occasion too. Appleseed came out this week for $24 on Blu. However, few titles are on Blu and the cost is $60-$80, for anime! In the old LD days i had to pick and choose the titles i wanted. I am doing that more and more. Every Blu-ray i own i bought from a sale. I am 10 months or so into the format, and i own 36 BD discs. To be honest, The Car wouldnt be worth $20 on Blu-ray (for me, and at this point its not even being offered), but i will snag it on DVD for under $15. Like you say, its about the movies. But its also about the value.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Oh boy, here he goes again. Downloads, satellite HD, and upconversion looks as good as Blu-ray.
Luigi, i dont agree with a damn thing you say. But your so damn polite when you say it. Kudos my friend!

See, and i think Blu-ray is better, but shock (!) i still buy DVDs, and a lot of them. I am into classic Doctor Who. That could never be HD, it was shot on video tape 20 to 45 years ago! It truly is, what it is. For me cost and the value vs. how much i like something comes into play as well. I may not buy that new Dirty Harry set, cause quite frankly...i dont give a care in the word for the toys. But until that time that it comes down so low in price, or gets a Blu-ray release minus the toys, i will be quite happy with the older release of the films. But i know for a fact the Blu-ray will look better than the older DVDs!

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I'd be more impressed if you were quoting unsolicited comments from people you didn't know at a Circuit City or Best Buy. Unless that sort of thing happens, the "upconverted DVD is good enough" idea will appeal to most people, no matter how enthusiastic you, your friends or anyone on here is.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Which holiday season was that? Was that St Patrick's Day, 4th of July? How quickly we forget that there were sweet deals and BOGO sales ALL last year and holidays had nothing to do with it. I have no doubt that we will see some very nice sales again next Christmas, but nothing like what we had as a direct result of competition. Last year there was a BOGO almost every other week.

And yes the MSRP hasn't changed, but that is irrelevant to me when the lowest price (not sale price) I can pay in the store or on line has gone up as much as $8 in the last 3 months.

Doug

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I'm with you here. I'm a film noir junkie and I'm still buying the Fox noirs and the Warner noir boxed sets. I think its unlikely that they will be on blu-ray anytime soon. Of course as soon as they are I'll be picking up those versions too.

Doug

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

So to remedy the lack of titles issue what do you suggest the studios do, flood the market with hundreds of titles, too many to chose from, and just create more confusion? That arguement does not make sense to me. I do not expect anyone to believe that Bluray after two years should have as many titles as DVD after eleven years. That would defy logic. Titles come with time, just like the adoption to HDM.

Everyone experience introducing newbies to HDM on disc is quite different. I had a open house in my bay area apartment to my neighbors giving them a demo of a SD DVD upconvert to 1080p, and a native 1080p bluray version of that movie. Twenty people showed up over a period of four hours. There was not a single person thought that upcoverted DVD was comparable to the bluray version. Not one. What blew them away more than anything was the combination of native 1080p, and the lossless audio. Not only could they see the difference, they could hear it as well. Within weeks, I got notes that five of my fellow dwellers who went out and purchased a flat panel, and either a PS3, or a standalone; and where asking me if I could assist them in setting everything up and calibrating it. I did not have to actively point anything out to anyone. On a properly calibrated display, the results often speak for themselves.

Eventually I believe bluray will become mainstream. Time does not stand still. Will bluray be as big as DVD? Maybe not. But I do not think the bar needs to be that high for bluray to be successful in the market.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I hate to say this John, but you´ve really fallen for this recent "upconversion" hype.. I´m sure you understand, that you just can´t (read=It´s impossible) add more "fabricated resolution" to something that has (roughly) barely half of the resolution compared to "full" 1080p. This is not rocket science. There´s no such a thing as "super upconversion". It´s something that the nerds from the marketing department made up. It´s their new "THX Certified", "Superbit" etc. It´s just the new term that they made up.

But hey, who did say that the marketing won´t fool people? Seems to be doing a good job. Upconversion/upscaling/etc is only a "threat to Blu-ray", IF people believe these clowns from the marketing department. Real threat it´s not (Yoda-style).

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

The last VHS tape I bought was just 4-5 years ago, off Ebay no less. It was "The Double Life of Veronique", which did not have a DVD release at that time, but I wanted to see it again, and that was that. About 2 years later, a region 2 (PAL, no less) DVD version finally showed up, and I bought that version as well because I just like the film and it was finally on DVD. Then the region 1 version finally become a reality via the Criterion Collection, and I also bought that one, why? Just because I could, finally. Plus, it made me less reliant on my region-free playback solution in case it went tango-uniform.

Some films, you take what you can get at the time you want it. I did that with Blade Runner, too, except I have no idea where my VHS copy of it went, but I know where my Criterion LD (CAV), DVD, and BD versions of it are. Hell, I may even pick up a HD DVD version of BR if I can get a good deal on it, just because.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I agree with you wholeheartedly, Paul, and posted a similar POV on another thread here at HTF about HDM being a niche product. I won't repeat that post here, but suffice to say that we are of like mind on this subject. I share the same doubts about this improvement to an existing format ever being embraced as a genuinely new format would be.

I work as a film historian, writer and teacher and my specialty is films of the 1920's-early 1930's, most of which will never even make it to SD DVD, let alone Blu-Ray. The best I can hope for is if TCM goes HD someday. Even the films from the late 30's to the mid-70's that I am most interested in will probably not emerge on any hard disc format the same way that some of my favorite LPs vanished from any potential CD release.

I realize that I am in the minority on these boards with regards to having little interest in many of the films from the past 20 years, all those which would, at least in theory, maximize the home theater experience in picture and sound, but I also think it gives me a unique vantage point. I feel that I am a film purist in every sense of the word and have been professionally interested and invested in film for over thirty years. So while I want to support the best approximation of a theater experience at home, I can't help but think that an extension of an already existing format, which ultimately Blu-Ray is, will prove to be a tough sell at our current pace of technology.

There were many, many doom and gloom predictions over the idea of downloading music and particularly vocal were the audio "purists" who complained about the inherent lack of quality in the presentation. Yet for all of that, nothing could stem the tide for everyone wanting iPODS, a trend that increases in popularity all the time. So I don't believe the idea of one day being able to download films by the same means as we can music is all that far fetched. True, it may be awhile before it can be done properly, but don't think that quality alone will ever decide the success or failure of any technology. It is easy to stop seeing the forest for the trees, especially in enthusiast forums like HTF.

Speaking as something of an insider/outsider, for me the idea of being able to download virtually any existing film from the history of commercial filmmaking, something that may indeed become possible at some point, excites me more than all the "greatest hits" of films on SD DVD or Blu. The trouble with all hard media is that we will always be at the mercy of a corporate bottom line. I would love to see a much wider spectrum of film history be reflected in DVD releases. I admit that I have been pleasantly surprised by the variety that has come out in SD DVD over the past 11 years, but to expect that same diversity in Blu-Ray seems rather foolish at the moment. Downloading, in theory anyway, will level the playing field a little more as the studios will only have to release the film once and from then on individual technology takes over. The sad part will be compromising quality, but who's to say that will even be an issue a few years from now with the incredible rate that technology keeps surpassing itself?

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I'm not sure about the full list, but some sort of list was posted in one of the bargain threads, and the sale apparently includes 3:10 to Yuma, so that's nice (and a relatively recent release that hadn't experienced any particularly good discounts yet). I'll probably see about getting that and something else though not sure yet. If you haven't already stocked up from previous sales, then there are probably a few others of interest like Ratatouille, Casino Royale, etc.

_Man_

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I tried to say this in my last post, but I still think the "incremental improvement" is exactly why HDM will succeed, not fail. The fact is, unlike LaserDisc, which required a completely different mindset, a blu-ray player is just another DVD player. The only barrier to adoption is price. OK, right now the price difference is big, but I'd be willing to bet that 2 years from now you'll only pay a modest premium for an HD player, and 5 years from now there won't be any noticeable price difference at all. If you look at the economics of manufacturing, once they've absorbed the costs of R&D and setting up the manufacturing lines (which is what is driving the high prices now), there's no real reason why the players should be any more expensive.

I think internet downloads face a much much greater challenge to adoption, because it requires people to rethink how they acquire their movies (not that it won't eventually happen, but I think it will take longer).

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Interesting perspective.

When prices fall to commodity levels (a couple of years is my guess) BD players could be the defacto "DVD player" for sale... since it would play whatever 5" disc you had on your shelf (other than HD DVDs). Nothing scary and nothing radical to have to accept for the consumer... just enjoy how much better their 1080p plasma looks with the BD movies.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Personally, I also don't see why Blu-ray needs to be as mainstream as some think. I agree w/ Crawdaddy that 40-50% penetration should be realistically achievable, if the industry doesn't screw it up. And that kind of penetration might well net them 80-90% of the revenues (and much better profit margins) that the current DVD market brings them anyway -- of course, I'm just doing a rough/ballpark guesstimate there, but the law of diminishing returns (and market/system efficiencies) do apply here as in most everything else.

_Man_

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Yes, a Blu-Ray player is just another DVD player... unfortunately a Blu-Ray disc is not just another DVD. A Blu-Ray movie can only be played in Blu-Ray players - it won't play in the DVD player in the bedroom, kids room, mini-van, computers, etc (and on all those devices owned by friends and family).

People will gain an incremental improvement in picture quality (as long as they have an HDTV), but they'll lose out bigtime on the convenience factor of DVD.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I don't think any entertainment media would suffer from too many titles. Even SD DVD with 90,000 titles still has not released some of my favorites and yes...titles do come with time, unfortunately. What intrigues me with the promise of download technolgy for movies would be if such a service simultaniously released...say 1,000 titles with lots of titles added each month. Now that would grab my interest.
Boy...am I glad I don't live in the apt next to you.
Personally, I'm not a HDM cheerleader (big surprise) and I've already told you why....lack of titles that interest me. I only have 5 Blu-ray titles. Now my SD DVD collection numbers 500+ and, consequently, I spend a lot more time watching SD DVD titles. I've owned HDTVs since 2001 and, quite frankly, now take HD PQ for granted. And why not...for the price I paid for my display equipment I expect and demand a quality HD picture. So it was a very pleasant surprise to me when I began watching my SD DVD collection on my new HD-A2 player and the PQ was 'HD' like to me. Now I'm not saying that if I did an A:B test that both pictures would be identical. But what I am saying is that for me, the PQ is thoroughly satisfying. I do know a good picture when I see one.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I think this is probably the long term goal. Eventually there will be no DVD only players, there will be media players that will play DVDs, blu-ray, WMV and MOV files from a USB flash drive or memory card, photo CDs, MP3 and so on. Maybe even HD DVDs.

Doug