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Originally Posted by drobbins
Weren't movies made in the 60s, 70s , & 80s, filmed on tape and not digitally?
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Originally Posted by Walter Kittel
In terms of support for older films (particularly when one eliminates Warner titles for the purpose of looking at the releases from other studios) I am underwhelmed.
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Originally Posted by Jari K
Are you joking? (or even trolling..) |
Rather harsh accusation. Chill out 
I am just ignorant. 
There has been so much hype, personal "facts" on both formats, I haven't read any more than a few threads on HDM & I am definitely not an expert on film making.
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Originally Posted by drobbins
Rather harsh accusation. Chill out
I am just ignorant. |
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Originally Posted by drobbins
I know digital recording is a recent event for home use, but I don't know when the studios started using it.
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Originally Posted by drobbins
Trolling!
Rather harsh accusation. Chill out I am just ignorant. |
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Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
I always thought that HDM would be the more expensive brother to SD DVD with a market penetration greater than LD, but well short of SD DVD or VHS. Also, that BR and SD DVD will co-exist for a long time.
Crawdaddy |
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Originally Posted by Paul_Scott
I used to think the same- that dvd would see a natural attrition to an HD format going forward in an HD display centric landscape. I now realize several things.
1) many (most?) 'HD' display owners own them for form (space, profile- size,style, etc) rather than function (higher res, higher quality picture). 2) you have to go back and view LD in the context of it's heyday. It was a very robust niche, and actually not priced at the substantial premium people think today. $24.99-$39.99 was not a huge premium over $19.99-$29.99 VHS pre-records. Even moreso since there was a huge form differentiation between the two. VHS was king and primarily a rental medium because the tech was foremost purchased for something else- timeshifting. It was convienent to then subsist on a diet of tapes for all your TV entertainment needs. It is not a coincidence that recordability was there for a part of DVDs asscention. Just as its not a coincidence that DVRs have more interest and enthusiasm amongst the general consumer than HD optical disc players do. 3) DVD is a more than sufficent an 'HT' delivery medium for the overwhelming majority of Joe-Six HTs. Simple as that. The studios want some kind of premium priced media to SUPPLEMENT Dvd revenue. There is no point in trying to replace it if margins ultimately are only interchanged. I honestly think we are looking at a better than DVHS/Worse than LD sales generator here. Bd is the fix for a problem only a few people, like us here, have. The only way to fix that is to purposefully degrade the eqiuvilent sd release in the future. Problem with doing that is they may convince people to abandon optical discs altogether...if they feel they are being extorted. In that case the alternative-a DVR+ sat sub would easily suffice. |
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Originally Posted by Paul_Scott
Man-Fai, I've already said that I eagerly buy what appeals to me, and ignore the vast majority that don't ( trying not to encourage bad title releasing habits). Further more, I've defended far more releases from the irrational ire of the cheerleaders and tier-istas than I have disparaged. Great suffering chowder Man, what more am I supposed to do?
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Still, I do think you're contributing to that trend nonetheless as you still continue to slant this whole thing in that direction.| On the optimism of economies of scale coming to 'rise all ships with the tide'- there are just a couple problems with that. 1) Sony (and the other Bd CEMs) want to keep prices higher for a while. They've been entirely candid in this respect at least. By most accounts Warner got a sweetheart deal which means it probably cost Sony and the BDA dearly...but that was far more palatable than continuing to bleed in hardware subsidies (exacerbated by being forced to compete with Toshiba and it's high value, low cost players) AND huge software subsidies (just who WAS paying for the twice monthly BOGOs all last year?) 2) I think its a cozy dream to expect prices to recede simply because this is 'computer/tech' related. Fuel(for transporting materials and stock) and petroleum (for plastics) are costs that are going to be going up more than they ever come down. Inflation will remain steady and robust, the 'cheap' chinese mfgrs are being frozen out, the dollar and it's import purchasing power is in serious decline, and just about everyone else here realizes there is little interest, no desire, (and as I've seen personally- some outright hostility) towards an 'elite' form of dvd sold at any kind of premium at this point . Where and when on earth do you see these economies of scale naturally occuring? |
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Originally Posted by Professor Echo
I think it is somewhat disingenuous to think that BD hardware or software will substantially decrease in price at any time. One of the motivating factors behind the creation of HD hard disc formats was not just some altruistic attempt to produce better quality, but to make DVD profitable once again.
Prices have gotten so low on SD DVD players and discs that the market has bottomed out. Both manufacturers and retailers are gambling on HD technology to pump more profits back into a dying industry. Their goal is to re-educate the masses that better quality comes at a higher price, not lower prices to SD levels and get themselves into the same economic mess they are in right now. They realized with SD that volume is not going to satiate their bottom line so the upfront cost must be higher. This will prove to be the biggest hurdle they have to overcome. Prices are only going to go so low on BD and people will have to buy into the idea that they are getting more for their money than SD. I think it's too little too late to try and re-train buying habits that have become so ingrained. And how to thwart the apathy many feel over what they see as just outright extortion to once more trade up to a technology that may be surpassed in another month. As I've posted in this forum before: Follow the money. If prices don't come down to the levels of SD then I believe the format is doomed. Yet right now I just don't see any manufacturer or retailer willing to substantially lower prices and run the risk of heading down that SD path again. Therein lies what's known as a Mexican standoff. So what's the answer? |
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Originally Posted by Aragorn the Elfstone
(I mean, for god's sake, there's alot of people who watch SD channels stretched horizontally and they actually think they're watching Hi-Def).
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Originally Posted by Walter Kittel
Strictly in terms of genres and film types I believe that Bd does a good job of representing a wide variety of films. In terms of support for older films (particularly when one eliminates Warner titles for the purpose of looking at the releases from other studios) I am underwhelmed. I realize that it takes years for older films to come out but I think Bd's track record to date is poor in this area.
Blu-ray breakout by decade / era 1957 - 1969 - 10 / 465 - 2.15% - 8 WB, 1 CTS, 1 MGM 1970 - 1979 - 15 / 465 - 3.22% - 9 WB, 2 Anchor Bay/Starz, 2 MGM, 2 CTS 1980 - 1989 - 28 / 465 - 6.02% 1990 - 1999 - 55 / 465 - 11.83% 2000 - 2008 - 316 / 465 - 67.96% Unknown - Musical / Special Interest mostly - 41 / 465 - 8.82 % This is based on title information from Download the most complete DVD list on the Web - Walter. |
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Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
I don't understand your choice of words such as "disingenuous"? Prices for BD will come down for hardware and software, but to expect them to be at the levels of SD DVD in the near future is not realistic and is unfair to this new video format.Crawdaddy
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Originally Posted by Jari K
Okay, sorry about that.
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Thanks for the insight. I think that there a lot of educating to be done before HDM is running correctly in the majority of households.|
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
I don't understand your choice of words such as "disingenuous"? Prices for BD will come down for hardware and software, but to expect them to be at the levels of SD DVD in the near future is not realistic and is unfair to this new video format.
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Originally Posted by Professor Echo
By disingenuous I meant giving a false impression of the current state of accepting or rejecting BD as a viable replacement/alternative to SD, the ostensible topic of this thread. Perhaps NAIVE would have been a better term as I didn't mean to imply that anyone was being intentionally misleading, just perhaps not always seeing the forest for the trees.
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| My point is that BD price levels will never substantially decrease as one of the primary reasons for developing and marketing the product is to offset losses from SD. To think that BD will ever come down in price to the points we've seen with SD is being very unrealistic in my estimation. |
| What incentive do these companies have for repeating the same mistakes they made with SD? I think it's possible that HD/BD has been a last ditch effort to revive profits in a software industry that is slowly fading out the same way that CDs have. |
| I'm not saying that you don't get your money's worth with BD, but trying to convince the general public who never visits sites such as HTF is a tough sell. |
| I will be glad to be proven wrong and invest in higher quality merchandise, but right now there is not enough support on any end of the spectrum to justify the added expense. |
| BD reminds me of a lot like CRITERION. You pay more money for what is generally regarded as a superior product, but it's still a boutique item and a niche market. |
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Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Has anyone else noticed that the price of new SD DVDs has been creeping up? At Walmart a new release SD DVD used to be $19.95 or less even for a 2 disc special edition. Now they are regularly $22 or $23.
Doug |
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Originally Posted by Walter Kittel
Blu-ray breakout by decade / era
1957 - 1969 - 10 / 465 - 2.15% - 8 WB, 1 CTS, 1 MGM 1970 - 1979 - 15 / 465 - 3.22% - 9 WB, 2 Anchor Bay/Starz, 2 MGM, 2 CTS 1980 - 1989 - 28 / 465 - 6.02% 1990 - 1999 - 55 / 465 - 11.83% 2000 - 2008 - 316 / 465 - 67.96% Unknown - Musical / Special Interest mostly - 41 / 465 - 8.82 % |
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Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
Personally, I think you make no sense at all. You sound like you're speaking out of both sides of your mouth in an attempt to prophecy the doom of BD. But that's just my opinion of course. Maybe if we get a better sense of what your real agenda is, I'll change my mind on that._Man_
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Originally Posted by Paul_Scott
Robert why would they EVER come down to sd levels? Where would sd go? Even lower? I don't see the point or the enthusiams from the studios in making the mass market price for new releases sub $10(retail w/ a $15 msrp). That's about as low as I can see sd (new releases and re-mastered CEs) going while still leaving room for a lower priced Bd ( figure $20-$30 msrps- catalog/new releases). On second thought...ok. I guess I could see that happening eventually. The only problem is that the presence of a direct comparison will always make the higher priced alternative seem 'unfair, too harsh, not worth it,' etc
Also I don't really see the point for any studio (besides Sony) to bother going to the trouble of creating and enforcing two media stratas. Couldn't they simply draw a line in the sand at any point and declare this is the lowest we want to encourage new/catalog to be sold at? I don't see the excitement from a studio perspective in trading a mass market medium that costs(hypothetically) $1.25 to make and retails for$15 in 2007 with one that costs $1.50 to make and retails for $20 in 2011. Because by that time the $1.25 model would likely be down another $.25 and the rise in margin in the case of the $1.50 model would likely be offset by fewer people buying because of the (relatively) higher price and changing purchasing/social/tech trends. |
| FWIW I don't think Bd is the last shot we have at a packaged HD media. The last shot at an optical DISC based media probably...but its a long time until dowloads will be ubiquitous. And don't forget, Sonys looking forward to that day just as much as the other studios. |
I think 5" optical discs make a happy median in terms of form factor. And honestly, I personally don't see how the studios can sell *me* (and most other enthusiasts) on something "better" than BD for the forseeable future. We'd need to start getting into virtual reality and such before I feel it worthwhile to upgrade from BD to the next big thing. 
As it is, it sounds like BD might even have enough technological headroom to handle good 3D presentation (at 1080p) w/ the 2 video decoders -- and that's something they haven't even mentioned using yet.
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Originally Posted by Professor Echo
As for "my real agenda", guess what? I don't have one other than to not play Pollyanna on this thread in order to please you or anyone else who has a less than objective opinion on the reality of the situation. My posts speak for themselves so we can agree to disagree and move on.
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Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
The MSRP has not change, just the discounting at the store level. The day of loss leaders is long gone.
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Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
You still thinking flash media? Personally, the more I think about that one, the more I think I won't want it. At first thought, it sounds cool to go small, but personally, I don't want it so small that they get easily lost around the house, etc. _Man_ |
