Great article on all the post format war doomsaying... - Page 7

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Yes, I agree. Both used "bought and paid for the win"-tactics for sure.

But we still have another popular issue from those glorious format war-days..


Not sure what this really means (BD wasn´t clearly "superior" format? Agreed. Both has advantages and disadvantages.), but at least we got the format that´s not limited to 30gb..

But here I go again, going circles! (must resist... must resist.... must resist... must resist... must.......)

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Well, you might have a point there, but does all that sound *that* rosy for you?

I mean does these hyper-sales and ultra-cheap player prices really matter that much in the end, if the "other format" fades away ultimately anyway? I mean we had 2 years of certain "cheaper prices" (lack of the better term). What does e.g. 4 years more of these "cheaper prices" matter, if the other format dies anyway? I don´t really get it. Sure, people got cheap HD DVD-players back then and enjoyed the HD-films. Fair enough. But that means very little now.. Don´t get me wrong, the players and software won´t go anywhere (I have HD DVD-player and 50 films) and you can enjoy these films for the years to come. But still it´s what it´s now: "Dead format" on paper.

There were a few fundamental "problems" (issues) from the start (and during it) of the "format war" for the certain group of people and one is above the others:

* Some thought that the industry could keep "two HD-formats" alive.

Other is:

* Some made their "format decision" from too early on. HD DVD was first in the markets, it had better releases (first 6 months-1 year, or so) and "final specs". I can´t blame them of course. But - after that "big decision" (=HD DVD is my choice!), things become too emotional and too personal for them.

Like I say, I can´t blame them for sticking with their choice (it´s in many ways quite natural), but I´m sure ALL of us should´ve at least consider the fact that "our format" could eventually "lose" this war. And - fade away.

So: I blame the format war. One format from the start, and all (most) of this talk would´ve gone away..

But, since the war is over, it´s time to look in the future (the future, Conan?)..

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

"What does e.g. 4 years more of these "cheaper prices" matter, if the other format dies anyway? I don´t really get it. Sure, people got cheap HD DVD-players back then and enjoyed the HD-films. Fair enough. But that means very little now.. Don´t get me wrong, the players and software won´t go anywhere (I have HD DVD-player and 50 films) and you can enjoy these films for the years to come. But still it´s what it´s now: "Dead format" on paper"

Jari, I would rather have a dead format that has released 4 years of supplementary content than one that has only released two years. Because just having one format all of a sudden creates a huge bottleneck in getting new material out from the 'old' studios as well as the ones that are now on board. I would think that all the people that have been singing the "content is king" chorus would understand the appeal of having the content out thereavailable to own in some form of hd...if not exactly ones preffered form. Its great that the only hd format left standing has 50 gbs to play with. Now rather than being able to enjoy some esoteric Universal catalog or the second season of star trek in hd this year, I can instead cue up the sd versions (if available) and wait perhaps years to be able to enjoy things that may have shown up in months. What good is 50 gb if a title isn't out yet and won't be for some time? And as far as doomsaying- isn't anyone else amazed how fast Tosh gave up the ghost? It almost seems they were relieved to have an excuse to exit. Amusing since software sales on the now clearly dead format are still hovering around the same % as when the war was hot and an uncertain outcome tenable. I thought the legions waiting for a resolution to finally jump in would have certainly skewed the ratio overwhelmingly to one side. Looks to me like that argument/talking point is proving to be without merit after all.
one format and people still aren't interested.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Give it time. Come next year at this time and we still haven't seen much development regarding mass market acceptance of HDM then we should be concern about its future.





Crawdaddy

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Let me re-post my earlier post:


Even if the $1 billion is a rumor or something, I believe you have your "reason" right there. They didn´t want to lose any more money (hence, fast exit).

I actually doubt that Toshiba made any real money with their players. Prices were just too low (their strategy simply failed for various reasons) and those "masses" decided to sit through the "war" (again for various reasons). "Only" around 1 million units were sold* worldwide... (edit: I mean e.g. PS3 is estimated to sell 5 million units this year in the US alone - source: Home Media Magazine - Bringing Digital Entertainment To You - Although the Blu-ray marketing is being critizised in the article)

(one more edit: I still don´t claim that you can fully compare Toshiba HD DVD to PS3...)



*600,000 players in the US and 300,000 Xbox 360 HD DVD drives. 100,000 units were sold in Europe. And about 10,000 players and 20,000 recorders in Japan. So about 1,030,000 units worldwide.
(source: Live from Toshiba's HD DVD press conference in Tokyo - Engadget )

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

The BDA is well aware of the replication issues are are working O.T. to get new assembly lines up and running to take care of demand (they were already working on it before Universal and Paramount came over... they're ahead of the game on this one). A short-term delay in titles will be a long-term gain for the HT community as a whole... just a little patience...

dave

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

only if this presumed mass market acceptance occurs, David. And believe me fellas, I haven't ever seen the kind of antagonism and outright hostility that I've seen amongst friends and co workers towards a 'higher end' i.e. hd optical disc format. It's viewed as a 'racket' to these people- a way to extort more money when they are perfectly fine with dvd for their (uncritical) viewing purposes. My one friend who has been enjoying my former brand new Sony rp which I sold to him less than six months after I bought it when I ran across a killer fp deal, says he wants to upgrade to a flat screen this year but will be satisfied to save money and go with a 720p since he has "no interest whatsoever in blu-ray". And this is a guy who still buys dvds frequently. To me the writing is on the wall- this is going to remain the obsession of a small % band of enthusiasts...who will then nitpick releases, continually finding cause to warn their brothers away from purchasing certain discs, avoid the release of classics en masse, amd bitch about the retail price levels of an under 5% niche interest product. I have every certaintity this is going to be a long slow slog from here on out getting decent titles released. with the end of the war there is even less incentive. Anyone want to bet we'll be seeing LESS unique Warner catalog titles this year on one format, than we did last year when they had to serve two?

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

No one is expecting mass acceptance to occur in 2008. However, as I said, the BDA is currently actively working on addressing replication issues so that the path for BD production is clear to all studios wishing to release product.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I'm sad to say I've seen far more of this than I expected (and I expected a fair bit of it). One thing I DON'T do with my "non-enthusiast" friends is steer them to such discussions. I understand that people want an excellent product, but the minutiae that gets hammered at sometimes borders on the absurd. Thankfully, people like RAH, who are certainly qualified to "nitpick" with a certain amount of expertise and experience, are able to keep things in perspective. Every one of his recommended titles (about a dozen now) on HD DVD I've seen has looked great to me and I think I'll stick with his recommendations. Would that more people could manage their expectations (and my comment is meant to address the various fora in general--the nitpicking is milder here than in many other places).

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

The sad truth probably is, that due the rapid end of the war, we´ll see less releases this year. I mean it takes some time for Universal and Paramount to re-adjust their goals/plans etc. So IMO, it´s not really fair to compare 2007 to 2008. But I guess we can compare e.g. (Xmas) holiday season of 07 to 08 eventually..

Is "CEDIA EXPO 2008" (September 3-7, 2008) the next big event, BTW? That *should be* the highly important event for Blu-ray. I mean seriously, if by that time we don´t see several big announcement from ALL the big companies and parties, I´m getting a bit worried myself.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I thought that he has been "recommended" transfers/releases, regardless of the format?

Generally we should be able to make our *own* decisions at the end of the day, by reading reviews, forums, opinions, etc and finally: By seeing the film yourself. Nitpicking is fine, if it´s based on some kind of facts and people have some proof, or evidence, to back them up. But that "nitpick" doesn´t mean that you can´t enjoy the film/transfer. These issues are rarely black-and-white.

During the format war-talk (some of that is still going on), certain people liked to praise certain releases, mainly since they were released in "their format". If you go to the certain "HD DVD import"-forums even today, every release there is suddenly "great" and interesting, just because it´s released on "HD DVD" (probably same thing with "Blu-ray import"-forums - no doubt!).

I remember how certain people "nitpicked" how HD DVD was using 1.5 Mbps-audio on some releases (when Blu-ray had "only" 640 Kbps), but then these same people didn´t suddenly "need" lossless audio on "Transformers". It was (almost) purely "format related"-talk and stuff like that happened all the time. I don´t say that "we don´t need 1.5 Mbps/lossless" - since I´m a audio fan, just making one point here..

My point? People always "nitpick" or "praise". Some of this talk is valid and important. Some of it just PR-talk or even flaming. We just have to see what´s what.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I don't have a "blu" player yet, that's the only reason I specified a format. I've only ever seen any of his hi-def recommendations on HD DVD. I'll be going "blu" later this year (I've been promised a player at Christmas--and I get to pick it).
Agree with all of the above. It's just that I've seen some seriously obsessed posters (scattered across the fora) who, after someone like RAH (or another reviewer/commentator of note) calls it a high quality (or even better) transfer, immediately jump in with "but for .6 seconds 1 hour and 43 minutes in, there was a hint of EE--so no way would I recommend this dreck" (I'm obviously exaggerating the detail, but not the tone). It is that impulse to "watch the format/gear" rather than watching the movie that, while often useful and informative, can become tiresome when taken to extremes.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Also agreed.

However, one man's "extreme" is another man's visual distraction.

Even with DVD we had the same debates. Those who called DVDs "drek" back in 2000 for not using anamorphic were called technophile extremists and elitist-snobs. Same sort of "you're watching the technology more than the films" arguments were thrown around. Then a few years later many of the folks who "loved movies and not technology" suddenly felt the same way about the lack of 16x9 as the "anamorphiatics" from before, but suddenly now it was "ok" for everyone to dislike 4x3 lbx since more and more folks were realizing what improvements you got with a 16x9 TV. We had the same pattern with OAR, DNR, and EE on DVD... some folks really sensitive, others less so, and a sort of "I love movies more than you" attitude from both sides.

What would be really nice is if people could just chill and let folks say their peace about their opinion without everyone else having to take it personally or translate the comments to mean that their own enjoyment is being labeled not-legitimate. If someone is bothered by EE on an HD title (even one that RAH says is great... remember, RAH also praised the Fugitive transfer which has some problems), just let them share their opinion. You don't have to feel the same, and it doesn't have to take away from anyone's pleasure with a title if someone else sees a problem. Of course, the folks who see a problem should extend the same courtesy towards respecting the rights of others to enjoy titles that they find have bothersome artifacts.

It's through dialogue between both sides that we all learn more about video *and* get better and better transfers from the studios.

If "extremist" videophiles handn't really made a stink over EE and the lack of 16x9 anamorphic despite the back-lash from other HTF members, we'd still have THX-certified DVDs released today on par with Titanic (non-anamorphic) and Phantom Menace (some of the worst EE out there) as the rule rather than the exceptoin. Because some folks got vocal, the rest of the HT community got better transfers from the studios.

It can be a win-win for everyone, and HD releases certainly aren't guaranteed to be perfect just because they're delivered in 1080p! Just like many of us were happy with DVD in 1997 and didn't even realize many of the problems that we understand well today, HD media will take us through the same cycle (though hopefully much more quickly... it's already been improving fast).

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Tone matters a lot, however, in terms of how much attention and support one might get. Explaining how improvements can be made by pointing out a shortcoming and showing how it could be made better is a far cry from "the film is ruined because the colour of the sky doesn't look like what I remember back in 1956 (leaving aside the absurdity of ANYONE having perfect recall of something they saw half a century ago)". I have no problems with the former--I find the latter tiresome.

As for RAH, what I like about his comments is the understanding that even 1080p HDM is NOT film and that our expectations should be managed. He won't always be right (no one is) nor will I always agree with his comments (a dozen is not a sufficient sample size for me to do anything but point out, that, so far, I've generally agreed with his views). We shouldn't be willing to settle for crap, but we should offer our criticisms constructively (which happens more here than many other places--my overall point covers more than HTF). It just seems that whenever I visit the various fora and someone with some credentials reviews a release and gives it a favourable review, I can almost anticipate the few, but persistent, posters who invariably have something negative to say. My respect of the various fora's rules of decorum have, more than once, held me back from saying "Hey, is there ANY transfer out there that meets your approval? Any at all?" to anyone in particular (I don't want it to be seen as hostile). But when I see some names, I think about it. (You're not one of them, by the way, just so we're clear.)

In any event, I don't want to dwell on this forever (else I will be doing the same thing I'm deploring). I just wouldn't want a "newbie" to wander in and get the impression that there are only six acceptable HDM titles out there and that despite so many people thinking such and such a title looks great, the "real" enthusiasts know otherwise.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

What does production capability have to do with mass market acceptance?

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

"What does production capability have to do with mass market acceptance?"

Presumably, once people start seeing more killer titles on the shelves, they'll begin buying players...

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

That assumes production capability (or the lack thereof) is the only thing inhibiting the release of lots of titles. Is it?

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

The higher and more efficient the production, the quicker the production costs will retreat. Can't speak to royalties for the titles themselves tho.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Retail prices are not set by production costs. If they were, prerecorded CDs would be DIRT cheap. Instead, they cost more than many DVDs.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Well, retail prices may or may not actually come down, but if production costs don't come down, then that would be one more major obstacle against retail prices coming down, no? Certainly, you can't expect the studios to slash prices and reduce margins if there is nothing to help out at the other end...

_Man_

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I think there is a presumption that there is a production bottleneck in the blu-ray pipe line. There clearly was at the start of things and with titles getting canceled or delayed even now, it suggests that there may still be a problem in this regard. How quickly production can be ramped up to meet the needs of all the studios, plus minor releases remains to be seen.

I don't think production limitations are the only issue, but I do think its a major factor.

Doug

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

It's a factor, but I was addressing the post that made it sound as if production costs are the major obstacle to mass market acceptance. There are several other factors involved.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Agreed.



Excellent point. Agreed.




RobertR asked:


They don't. That was the point of my post. The poster I was responding to made a statement as though they were somehow linked (ie, that without mass market adoption production would be a problem). I intended for my statement to disassociate the one predicating the other.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Were they really putting less emphasis on this issue before the collapse of HD DVD? My expectation is that the loss of the HD DVD production channel will result in fewer total HD releases for some time to come. This directly impacts the consumption rate for purples (not peoples ) like me.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Hey Larry,

part of getting WB to agree to go blu was demonstrating that BD50 replication capacity was up to the job to go wide-scale with all the major studios. WB wanted to be sure that BD50 replication could really support (or soon support) a single-format production demand with all major studios participating before they were willing to move the industry in the blu direction.

So yes, even from November of last year this issue was a hot-topic on the table of the BDA.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

production bottleknecks was only one of several issues I had in mind when I lamented less releases in the future. I'm typing these posts out on a phone so it's hard to get across everything I want in one swoop. The other big reason I feel we will be getting screwed now in terms of variety and quality titles is because their is no longer an incentive for the single format to distinguish itself in this area. Had the war continued at the same pitch, I think there is a greater possibility we would have gotten Lawrence of Arabia this year as per Penton Mans comments from last year. Now this title isn't even likely before 2010. If there was still a fight for the audiences affections and support, do you really think Sony would have backburnered this for two more years at least? I don't. The only good thing about the wars end is that they are finally being honest about how lousy the Bd format is for moving quality classic material- despite that "amazing" (and wholly disingenuous) software sales advantage. Despite being not only a Spielberg classic but something whose main production costs were leveraged thru sd dvd sales, Close Encounters apparently couldn't make money on the format with something like 6 million + players in the field. A real same then for non format cheerleaders and movie buffs who merely want higher than sd quality...since a seemingly sound alternative/auxilliary source just closed up shop.
Which is why I lean more towards 'doomed' now than to praise and thankfullness. We're now going to reap the harvest a single, less efficent, higher cost, younger demographic format has sown. The wars over and we all lost.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

The info that I read said that it "barely made any money". That's hardly a major success but it's not really a colossal bomb either.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

noted and revised. Thanks. Although that is in some ways worse (for us) as it implies the studio won't be extending itself in the areas of classics unless the payoff is large and immediate. that doesn't strike me as jibing well with the idea of growing a new format with a solid base ( of good high quality catalog releases).

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Although I'm not sure this is the case yet, I can see the situation going in the direction you suggest. It wouldn't surprise me a bit. As I've said before I haven't bought a single HDM title since before Christmas and the only one I'm really interested in right now is Patton.

We'll see what Warner has up its sleeve in the coming months, but so far the demise of HD DVD hasn't been good for classic movie fans.

Doug

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Let me get this straight.

Why must it be sooo bad if the format/market takes the route of drawing the young male, blockbuster action demographic *first* anyway? It's not like that guarantees that classic catalog (and other fare that don't fall under "young male, blockbuster action") won't ever make it in the format.

Personally, I think it should just take whichever course best brings around the long term success of the format.

Sure, this way would mean the traditional film buffs will have to be extra patient. But what would the realistic alternative be though? We didn't see the traditional film buffs come out in droves to rally behind either format during the format war even when Toshiba decided to slash prices big time. Most just sat on the sideline.

If the format/market goes the route of "young male, blockbuster action" demographic *first* before eventually serving the traditional film buffs, well, who is it really to blame though? You can't expect these multi-billion corporate entities to put blind faith in film buffs who did *not* do a thing of significance during the format war, can you?

For myself, I want variety in my choices for film. If the format/market decides to go one direction first, that's fine w/ me. If it decides to go another direction first, that's fine w/ me also. I just want to see good films in high quality HD whether they be some traditional classics or a solid popcorn flick or whatever else I fancy. And for that to happen, I need one HD format to succeed however it happens -- that may or may not mean mainstream mass adoption though I'd much rather not have to pay LD-like premiums for it in the long run.

IMHO, I think the true film fans should stop bitching about all this and rally around the format already and help make it a success so we can all enjoy films on the format for the long haul, instead of constantly focusing on what it is not yet. And I don't mean we shouldn't let the studios know what we want. But OTOH, you can't expect them to listen if you don't put your $$$ where your mouth is either...

_Man_