Great article on all the post format war doomsaying... - Page 6

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Luigi, I´m sure I have explained these issues already too many times (let´s face it; I repeat myself like the next man here). You know where I stand.

My point was, that the "format war" lasted that (roughly) 2 years, right? We got some "cheap players" and sales. Fair enough. Many people bought HD DVD-titles like there´s no tomorrow. Now many of these people are bitter and angry and their format is almost dead. So there was a "price" for those "cheap players" and "two formats" after all. People just didn´t know it back then (they sure understand it now, when Toshiba pulled the plug etc).

And, I doubt that we got those "masses" really behind either of the formats. Even with one format they´re "confused" and all that, let alone with two formats.

So what were the benefits of the "format wat" at the end of the day? When the outcome was still ugly for that "other side". HD DVD-players are now "on clearance sale" everywhere and HD DVD-titles sold in the bargain bins. That´s the harsh reality of the war and its outcome.

So no, I don´t even remember those "glorious times" anymore during the war, since I don´t feel that they were that "glorious" after all.

Let´s say that this format war would´ve lasted another 2 years. We would´ve lost most of the "regular people" (meaning since most of us here are HT-buffs of some sort), people would´ve bought even more films in the "wrong format" and the debates would´ve raged in the forums.

And then after 4 years: The same outcome. End of war, one format and players/software from that "other format" sold in the bargain bins.

IMO, we got lucky that the war ended a bit sooner than expected. It just takes some time for some of us to realize that.

Now we just have to move on. We should have "common goal" now. Of course, can we all unite after all the bitter talk and the outcome of the war? Let´s hope so.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Okay. If people actually want to believe that then more power to them. AFAIAC the source material is the director's vision. The more transparent a reproduction is to the source..... the closer it is to the director's original vision. All things being equal, I consider a low resolution SD reproduction to be further away from the director's intent than a high resolution BD reproduction; however, maybe I'm in the minority with that belief.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Ouch!!! I feel and understand your pain. Perhaps this explains the relaxed satisfaction I get from simply recording HD titles off my DBS service and started a new non-physical collection with very little to lose financially speaking.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Interesting (unconfirmed) tidbit:

Home Media Magazine - Bringing Digital Entertainment To You

"Losing the format war could cost Toshiba Corp. nearly $1 billion, Japan’s Nikkei newspaper reported March 13."

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Frankly, if the truth be told BD didn't win because they deserved it. They won because they bought and paid for the win. I see it as the equivalent of a basketball team winning after paying off league officials, refs and sportswriters. Doing so gives them the fact of a win and allows sportwriters to write articles painting a rosy picture of how and why they deserved to win. Sure BD won. However, the writer is apparently saying they deserved to win because they had the most studios, marketing, end caps, sales people misrepresenting HD DVD and cash to payoff Warner. Because clearly BD did not win on the merits of its technology vs. HD DVD.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I was living in Canada when I started collecting VHS tapes (in 1990, as noted above). As my means were more modest in the 90s than today, my collection did not grow above the 70 titles sitting on my shelf next to me as I write this.

As for SD DVD, my collection is at about 250--certainly not large by forum member means. I have about 50 HD DVD titles (some in transit, so the exact number escapes me)--though it appears my rate of HD DVD collect vs VHS supports your position, it is more a reflection that I have more money to buy more things more quickly now than then. I'd wager that most people had smaller VHS collections than DVD because they did not become really cheap until very late in the game, but I was not alone among my friends to have 50+ pre-recorded VHS titles (the hundreds of taped titles I won't even count). I still even watch some of them as I've yet to upgrade them all (a number of them are OAR--that was a major criterion for me when buying; if an OAR version was available, without fail that is what I bought, even though my TV was a 13 inch CRT at the time).

I think we can all agree it is easier to amass a collection today, but it was not as rare as you seem to think for people to amass VHS collections back in the day.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

You're actually speaking of a very specific, minority market segment, not the mainstream. And in fact, I suspect when many of those students are done w/ college and have well paying jobs, many of them will end up buying the latest and greatest also, including Blu-ray (or whatever else). Indeed, I belong in that very group though I was not "into" the cinema so much back then (so no, I didn't collect LDs), but did start getting into classical music and started collecting lots of CDs.


Actually, those families basically buy the same titles on DVD that they would've bought on VHS, which was my point. They're not buying a whole lot more than that. They still rent a whole lot. And I don't see too many of them having collections that number in the hundreds -- in fact, I only personally know a couple people or so besides myself who have such collections, and I know a lot of people. I'll say though that there are certainly a greater selection targeted at them nowadays than back in the VHS days (before Pixar, before the big blockbusters of the past decade or so, etc).


You may be right for the most part (as I said before) though I do think you've overestimated the amount of people that actually own sizeable movie collections (in the "hundreds"). Still, I'll agree that the bargin bin pricing of DVDs these days is certainly building up quite a lot of inertia against Blu-ray -- and the studios need to work hard to overcome that, if at all possible. If not too many folks already own hundreds of DVDs yet, then they just might get there soon enough w/ all the bargain bin pricing that's going on. Heck, I've certainly bought at least a hundred (or two) DVDs in large part because of that these last couple years -- not that I'm complaining of course.


Actually, if BD fails (or simply stays niche), it won't be because of that. The average folk is far too practical (and/or wanting instant gratification) for something like that to be a significant deciding factor. If that weren't the case, the holiday (ie. shopping) season wouldn't be what it's become now.

_Man_

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Okay, wanna take Star Wars as an example? Let's put an immaculate transfer of the 1977 version of A New Hope onto BD (ok, we can dream). Would that BD represent the source material at its fullest potential? Probably, yes. Would it represent George Lucas' original vision? Not according to George Lucas!

That's obviously an extreme example, but there are many others.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm only working from memory but it seems to me that the language describing the director's intent/vision is rather old "hype" used to promote widescreen/letterbox editions of titles going all the way back to VHS widescreen tapes and was rolled out by PR agencies every time a new format was introduced.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

There was an article back in 2002, in Variety Magazine, which listed the results of a pretty sizable survey conducted by one of those non-biased polling groups. It rated the amount of poll-takers who had a collection over 100 as in the high 40%, and it also had a staggering amount, something like 10%, that had DVDs they bought "purely to own" and were "still in their shrinkwrap months later."

Now keep in mind this was back in 2002, so that number has had to rise. I admit that it was a non-scientific survey, but it seemed pretty fair to me.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think a lot of people are overstating the "collecting" factor that VHS has in the 80s and 90s, and likewise undershooting the factor for DVD. While some think that I am envisioning the opposite In the end I guess it's virtually impossoble to know who is more correct, since it's doubtful honest, true numbers exist from the 80s/90s, and it seems most of the numbers I can find from the modern, DVD-era, come from biased sources. Oh well

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Here we go again.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

It's not even worth commenting on, since HD DVD tried to do the same thing.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

the voice of reason. Thanks.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Indeed. The only way to see a movie the way the director intended it is to view it at a cinema with X other paying customers. As the anti-piracy commercial running right now in the UK says "Cinema - it's the experience that counts!" That's how I watch all new movies that I want to see...

Anything else is a compromise. Certainly some home delivery methods are more of a compromise than others, but they're a compromise nonetheless.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

And that's a strawman argument. We're not talking about theatrical cut vs. director's cut or whatever you want to call various cuts. We're talking about reproducing the quality of the source material as close as possible.

That means reducing digital artifacts, blocking, EE, etc. as much as possible to reflect what the film would look like if displayed on film.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Robert, you're absolutely right. I guess I should have just ignored it. (and I'm not trying to be facetious).

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Which will be blown out of the water if, say, the Bond films are released with the exact same colour changes (and other anomolies) from the ultimate editions, or Halloween is released without the blue colour scheme (oh wait, that already happened...)

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

You were doing a little more than that, and I think you know what I mean. So does every regular reader of these threads.

And the agendas of many of those posters have become abundantly evident. You can play the innocent and say, "Oh I was just curious", but I think most people here have your number.

Your point being?

M.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Jari,
Thanks for your response.
Had the format war continued I think it would have developed along similar lines as the Betamax/VHS war with both formats vying for our dollar by offering sales, sales and more sales. Hardware and software prices would have slipped even further for both formats producing more purchases from cost conscious consumers, more sales...more purchases...you get the picture. Eventually, after the install base for both formats has reached respectable levels the bleeding industry would have come to an agreement amicable for all parties which they should have done in the first place.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

No I don't think VHS was selling anything like the numbers that DVD does. DVD was the product that that allowed movies to start making more money on home video than in the theater. It's the most successful consumer electronic product ever made.

Having said that, VHS did very well in sales once the prices dropped to around $20.

Doug

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I don't know about the director's vision. Only the director knows about that. But the BD would surely be more accurately displaying the source material, warts and all, than an SD version would. On BD you can actually see the grain of the film. You can see textures in costumes that are completely lost in SD. I've seen details in a film like Casablanca that I had no idea existed before.

Honestly John for me watching an HD version of a film is much more like sitting in a movie theater than watching a TV. About the only thing I'm missing is the sticky floor and a crying baby.

Doug

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I don't think we are talking about problems with a particular transfer here. We are talking about the potential to more accurately reproduce the source material. Some people using front projectors and 106 inch screens are getting to the point of being almost, not quite, but almost identical to the theatrical experience.

I'm really not sure why you are so hostile to HDM, you seem to be trying to convince yourself that its not worth it more than anything else.

Doug

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

1080p resolution doesn't mean that a production house can't make mistakes.

However, 1080p resolution allows proper film-transfers to shine through in your own living room with fidelity that faithfully serves the original material... something that SD cannot deliver.

By the way, the same issues you mention (color timing etc) can just as easily affect any other medium... even 35mm release prints. Those potential problems don't affect discussions about formats, though it is important that any studio doing film-to-digital transfers make an effort to accurately reflect the look of the intended image in the original source (very often, creative director's are called in to approve transfers and digital color timing etc.). Those principles are true for all formats, and are in no way unique to high-definition media.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

I think I would use the term "more faithfully". With its limited color space and less than half the resolution of 35mm, HDM still isn't completely accurate in reproducing the original material. But for the screen sizes available in most homes, even large projection systems, its probably as accurate as it needs to be.

Doug

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Agreed.

4K with 4:4:4 color space would be a better candidate for the declarative "faithful" term. HD as it stands is "reasonably faithful" or "more faithful" given a 30-degree viewing angle, but it's not up to the task of near-field-viewing like we'd expect with IMAX and other more critical viewing distances. The irony is that so may modern release prints are so sub-par given 35mm capability, that many in-home 1080p images out-shine theatrical projection (a sad irony).

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

My laserdisc player was for collecting movies,(R.I.P) but in the mid 90's I was collecting VHS movies just to watch, because I have never been much of a rental type. Many vhs films were insanely low priced(I remember getting Fargo for $4.99)from Target, and Sam's Club. I had a collection of about 200 films on VHS, and about 80 on LAser. Gave my laserdiscs, player and 98% of my vhs films to the Goodwill. Of my remaining vhs movies:Housekeeping, Over the Edge with MAtt Dillon, and Blood Simple.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

No I don't. I asked a simple question and the poster was kind enough to provide a simple answer. I'm curious why posters say the things they say and what's on their minds but I'm not a mind-reader.
Your being very judgemental. I'm to old to waste my time with subtlety and I'm not afraid of language. So...what's my number?
Don't get too excited about "hype." You know I've seen about 7,000 movies in my lifetime, most are now on DVD. Of these 7,000 titles only about 500 have made it to my collection, so hype phrases like "fulfilling the director's intent/vision" doesn't hold much reverence for me. In fact, I view it more as an indictment.

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Yes of course we are talking about a good quality 35mm print and not one coming from a 2k intermediary. In that case HDM is probably pretty darn close to accurately reproducing the film. Unfortunately this is probably the case with most films made in the last 5 years or so.

I wasn't even thinking of 70mm much less IMAX.

Doug

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

Yep. Reminds of when back in the 80's lots of musical artists started to do all their recording and mixing in 16/44.1 because it was "better" on paper than analog and because it simplified lots of steps in the recording process. Then a few years later it became clear just how much potential sound quality had been lost by sub-standard digital recording/mastering and lots of folks went back to analog gear (until the more recent 24/96 recording/mastering). When I play some of those early "DDD" CDs on my stereo system now, some of them sound so bad you have to wonder how any mixing engineer could have believed they were producing a high-end product.

Essentially, that's what 2K DI mastering with film is like now. It's good enough to get buy, but it also serves as a gate limiting the resolution that gets on the master to much less than was on the original film negative. Once we have 4K DI mastering the issue will be moot, but for now lots of films will look "dated" on high-resolution gear because of the 2K masters.

I noticed what appeared to be 2K issues when watching the Resident Evil trilogy... digital scanning has improved greatly in the last few years and you can actually see how the earliest film looks soft and lacking in detail compared to the much more detailed last film.

Ok... sorry to get off topic...

Re: Great article on all the post format war doomsaying...

yes, or TV shows from the late 80s and 90s that did post production on video tape. Now all that work has to be redone if they want to release any of them on HD.

Doug