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post #31 of 311
2/10/08 at 1:09pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Where did you hear that they scanned the 65mm effects elements? There is nothing in the extra features that says that. I had assumed they scanned the 35mm reduction prints for the effects shots.

Doug
It's on the sheet with the Ridleygram inside the deluxe set.
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post #32 of 311
2/10/08 at 6:00pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Here is an excellent comparison of the older and newer DVD versions of Ben-Hur.

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/special/ben-hurdvd.htm

Doug
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post #33 of 311
2/10/08 at 6:05pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
It's on the sheet with the Ridleygram inside the deluxe set.


Thanks. I finely found an interview with the producer of the final cut where he talks about the 65mm elements. Apparently they were actually scanned at 8k.

My understanding however is that the problem with scanning 65mm films isn't that there is no quality equipment to do it, but rather that the cost of using said equipment is prohibitive for a whole feature film.

Doug
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post #34 of 311
2/10/08 at 7:31pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

I would suggest they do a limited reissue to promote it, but then I remembered that Warner is no longer making any film prints of repertory titles, and once their last 35mm repertory release prints break, it's all digital. Considering how these prints tend to get trashed part of me can't blame them. However, this is going to come back and bite them in the butt in a BIG way.
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post #35 of 311
2/11/08 at 2:44am

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Anthony
I would beg to differ! Especially as it's been said that VistaVision (from the same decade as BH) should be scanned in at least at 6K to take in all the detail, a UP neg is even larger and as it contains squeezed footage arguably there is more data to extract than in a flat negative of the same size.
Regardless even if there was only 4K of data, Blu-ray could still only show 25% of it, at best.
M
You seem to think that 4K looks 4 times sharper than 2K. That is usually not the case at all. It can, but it rarely does. For example 35mm in 4K looks pretty much the same as 2K concerning sharpness. The difference is rather a smoother more analogue look and no aliasing even in the finest details. Ben Hur scanned at 8K and downsampled to 4K will essentially show the same sharpness and detail as Ben Hur at 8K natively. The difference will be subtle. The MTF on these films from the 50s is not high enough to show a lot of detail beyond 4K. You simply scan noise/grain in these regions.
see also
Matthew Cowan and digital cinema and resolution and film distribution and 2K scans and 4K scans and feature film production and 35mm and lens and camera and Kodak 5245 and Cintel International and Academy Scope and aperture and I/P and MTF curve and
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post #36 of 311
2/11/08 at 5:29am

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Mr. Hafner is correct. We now generally scan 35mm 4 perf at 4k, Vista at 4k, which is occasionally referred to as a 6k scan, but is still 4k perf to perf, and 65mm at 8k.

Is there a visual difference between a 40 -50 year old 65mm frame scanned in 8k as compared to the same frame down-rezzed to 4k?

Definitely.

RAH

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post #37 of 311
2/11/08 at 6:20am

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Thank you for confirming my figures and thoughts Mr Harris.

Mr Hafner, as I mentioned above, the only purpose for doing an 8K scan on a title such as Ben Hur would be as part of a restoration project and/or to create an archival DI at full resolution that could effectively replace the negative for future creation of digital media and prints.

By scanning at 8K you would ensure that every last bit of detail, grain and noise was there, just as if you were printing off the negative - which would be the only right thing to do for authentic 65mm prints and to save having to scan it again in the short term, for example when someone says next year "hey, we could show ben-hur in imax for it's 50th birthday", as every time these 50 year's old plus elements are handled there is a danger of damage.

As far as the final product on Blu-ray is concerned it would make little difference if it was 8 or 4K.

Regards

M
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post #38 of 311
2/11/08 at 10:17am

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michel_Hafner
You seem to think that 4K looks 4 times sharper than 2K. That is usually not the case at all. It can, but it rarely does. For example 35mm in 4K looks pretty much the same as 2K concerning sharpness. The difference is rather a smoother more analogue look and no aliasing even in the finest details. Ben Hur scanned at 8K and downsampled to 4K will essentially show the same sharpness and detail as Ben Hur at 8K natively. The difference will be subtle. The MTF on these films from the 50s is not high enough to show a lot of detail beyond 4K. You simply scan noise/grain in these regions.
see also
Matthew Cowan and digital cinema and resolution and film distribution and 2K scans and 4K scans and feature film production and 35mm and lens and camera and Kodak 5245 and Cintel International and Academy Scope and aperture and I/P and MTF curve and

Thanks for the link, very interesting information. Of course that was written in 2003 and processing power and economics have changed radically since then.

Doug
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post #39 of 311
2/11/08 at 10:47am

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Here is an excellent comparison of the older and newer DVD versions of Ben-Hur.

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/special/ben-hurdvd.htm

Doug
Tried to take a look but the link doesn't work.
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post #40 of 311
2/11/08 at 2:02pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

RAH,

thanks for joining this thread!

Please use whatever influence you have to encourage WB to spend the money to do a proper, *optimized* large-format scan. A blurry scan that doesn't even do the film justice at 2K is not what the flim, or its fans, deserve.

Hopefully, such optimal large-format scanning technology will become more affordable over time. There are so many 65/70mm films to enjoy in HD... and it would be a shame if we had to rely on multi-generational 35mm reductions as our film source to get the best picture.
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post #41 of 311
2/11/08 at 2:08pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
RAH,

thanks for joining this thread!

Please use whatever influence you have to encourage WB to spend the money to do a proper, *optimized* large-format scan. A blurry scan that doesn't even do the film justice at 2K is not what the flim, or its fans, deserve.

Hopefully, such optimal large-format scanning technology will become more affordable over time. There are so many 65/70mm films to enjoy in HD... and it would be a shame if we had to rely on multi-generational 35mm reductions as our film source to get the best picture.
I don't think WB needs to be influence as they are well aware of the problems associated with the last SD DVD release and will not want to mess up the 50th anniversary release of this great film next year on BRD. Furthermore, this is the type of title that will help sell Blu-ray to those people sitting on the sidelines because they believe SD DVD is good enough for them. You'll be surprise how many people still need convincing that such a notion is wrong.
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post #42 of 311
2/11/08 at 2:20pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Robert,

have you heard from WB that they are aware that their transfer for the last Ben-Hur DVD wasn't up to par? I know there was lots of debate at places like HTF over that transfer, but I hadn't heard any response from any WB party.

thanks!
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post #43 of 311
2/11/08 at 2:26pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Robert,

have you heard from WB that they are aware that their transfer for the last Ben-Hur DVD wasn't up to par? I know there was lots of debate at places like HTF over that transfer, but I hadn't heard any response from any WB party.

thanks!
David,
To answer your question without acknowledging anything, Warner reads our forum regularly.





Crawdaddy
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post #44 of 311
2/11/08 at 2:31pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Quote:
David,
To answer your question without acknowledging anything, Warner reads our forum regularly.

Yes, but that's not quite the same as them *agreeing* that the disc had a problem.

(as an example, There's a lip-sync delay on the DTS track of the Moulin Rouge DVD, but FOX has never (to my knowledge) acknowledged even internally that there was a mastering error in the disc).

I think that your comment implies politely that WB is indeed aware that the disc's image was not optimal (in addition to being aware of the debate surrounding it on the board). If so, good news. I'd hate to have a 1080p disappointment on this one!

Now... if they would just give us the *ORIGINAL* soundtrack mix (lossless), we'd be set!

dave
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post #45 of 311
2/11/08 at 2:38pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
I'd hate to have a 1080p disappointment on this one!
I think Warner feels the same way.





Crawdaddy
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post #46 of 311
2/11/08 at 3:49pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

You can all rest assured that Warner's George Feltenstein monitors these forums regularly. He admitted as much to me personally the other day.
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post #47 of 311
2/11/08 at 7:07pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulDA
Tried to take a look but the link doesn't work.

Looks like the site is down. I'm sure it will be back up again soon.

Doug
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post #48 of 311
2/11/08 at 9:32pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by john a hunter
And WHV can you do the Overture, intermission music,etc correctly this time on a BLANK screen instead of those stupid still frames taken from the titles. They ruin the effect that was intended. You got it right for 2001, but not for Mutiny, Bulge and Grand Prix.Wake up!
.......I saw Mutiny on the Bounty In February 1963 at the Leow's New York.........and those forementioned titles .....Overture and Intermission title still frames existed then!!!.....in the original release!!....so they WERE INTENDED!
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post #49 of 311
2/12/08 at 12:37am

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
Is there a visual difference between a 40 -50 year old 65mm frame scanned in 8k as compared to the same frame down-rezzed to 4k?
Definitely.
RAH
Please tell us more about examples you have looked at in 8K versus 4K. How was the 8K looked at? Filmouts? Zoomed in on 4K projector, 2K monitor? What was the main difference between 8K and 4K from 8K? Grain structure?
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post #50 of 311
2/12/08 at 3:28am

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vern Dias
The quality of the Ben-Hur SE transfer sucked big time. Bad color registration errors, no fine detail, etc etc. There is no way that this transfer would be acceptable for HD. Have you seen the HD DVD of Spartacus? That was a major dissappointment. Ben Hur from the existing transfer would probably look as bad or worse.

Vern

Ben Hur was shown in HD, I think on Cinemax, and it looked better than Spartacus, not that this is saying much. It looked similar to Mutiny on the Bounty but with more registration errors and I would say a tad softer overall. I think we all would want the Blu-Ray to look better than that.

Oliver
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post #51 of 311
2/12/08 at 12:40pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike--
.......I saw Mutiny on the Bounty In February 1963 at the Leow's New York.........and those forementioned titles .....Overture and Intermission title still frames existed then!!!.....in the original release!!....so they WERE INTENDED!

Mike,I don't wish to be rude but what absolute rubbish!!. What medication are you taking ?

I saw Mutiny, Ben Hur, Cleopatra, South Pacific, El Cid,etc in their first runs in 70 mm and I have NEVER EVER seen such titles until the advent of prerecorded tapes and later DVD.they are put on , presumably, so people don't ask where the picture is gone. All that is needed is some education by the studios or small lettering saying Overture or what ever that fades away after a few seconds.
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post #52 of 311
2/12/08 at 3:28pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Yup. Mike was certainly on something

I projected MOB when it was released. It was a 35mm 4 track mag print and the Overture and Entre'Acte were on black and white opaque film stock. No road show release except for "West Side Story" ever used any kind of image for the overture or entr'acte.

Vern
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post #53 of 311
2/12/08 at 3:28pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

John is quite right. In the grand old days of single screen roadshow theaters, the overtures and such were played with the curtains CLOSED so there was no need for identification cards . The curtains would then majestically part ( or rise, depending on the set-up ) with the first appearance of the studio logo leading into the feature.

Remember curtains in theaters ?
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post #54 of 311
2/12/08 at 4:18pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Well, then shouldn't they be screens of curtains on home video instead of black?
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post #55 of 311
2/12/08 at 4:29pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

MyHT already has curtains.....

But I did work in a theater many years ago that projected an image of a curtain from a slide projector whenever the movie wasn't running....
Vern
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post #56 of 311
2/12/08 at 7:23pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulDA
Tried to take a look but the link doesn't work.

It's back up again.

http://www.widescreenmuseum.com/special/ben-hurdvd.htm
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post #57 of 311
2/12/08 at 8:30pm

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
Well, then shouldn't they be screens of curtains on home video instead of black?
Why am I having flashbacks to Baz Luhrmann's Red Curtain films?
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post #58 of 311
2/13/08 at 12:51am

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Hi,

let's not forget what this is about - we all want to get better quality than the last HD version:



And yes, I would like the Overture and Intermission and Exit music to be played back with a blank screen but I would not loose too much sleep over a stellar transfer with superimposed stills - I can always mute the pic in my HT

Oliver
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post #59 of 311
2/13/08 at 9:58am
Thread Starter 

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Quote:
Originally Posted by OliverK
Clicking on the 154kb image of the chariot race in Ben-Hur brings up a great HD image, but the softness viewed on my Apple Cinema HD Display is disappointing at best.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
My understanding however is that the problem with scanning 65mm films isn't that there is no quality equipment to do it, but rather that the cost of using said equipment is prohibitive for a whole feature film.

Wonder how IMAX handles the cost of digitally mastering their 15/70 formats, exhibited in IMAX theaters an then telecined to 1080P 1.78:1 for the Blu-ray reproduction, like the IMAX - "Blue Planet" disc?
The detail & sharpness is so vitally important in the HD experience.

Paul
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post #60 of 311
2/13/08 at 11:02am

Re: Warner to release Ben-Hur on Blu-ray in 2009

Not the same thing. IMAX docs are considerably shorter than the average feature film.
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