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Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection) - Page 10

post #271 of 314
2/23/08 at 10:46am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Was it Churchill that said "Never use a preposition to end a sentence with?"
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post #272 of 314
2/23/08 at 11:17am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Indeed
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post #273 of 314
2/23/08 at 11:17am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Robert Harris:"This is a beautifully produced set, albeit fashioned against the Criterion norm of OAR, is the best out there, and is likely to remain as such until the film is released in HD."

I agree somewhat with this,Yes its a super collection of extras,But the British
pal set has some of these,like the commentary and the South Banks show.Yes I preffer the color,But Pal versions are the full 2.35:1
frame,people and things don't get cut off,and you can fix most of the color
problems changing your tV settings,

So No this isn't the Best out there!! there are at least two other sets

Its clear Storraro wont do 2.35;1 or 2.20:1 transfers.so someone can use this
cropped dvds as guides to set the color.
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post #274 of 314
2/23/08 at 12:48pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

This gets stranger as more information comes out. If the 2:1 transfer is something controlled by the filmmakers, where did the UK transfer come from and how old is it?
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post #275 of 314
2/23/08 at 2:49pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Format: Box set, Director's Cut, PAL
Language English, Japanese
Region: Region 2 ( DVD formats.)
Number of discs: 2
Classification:
Studio: Optimum Home Entertainment
DVD Release Date: 24 May 2004
Run Time: 450 minutes
DVD Features:
Bernardo Bertolucci An Indepth Making Of Documentary
Commentary By Bernardo Bertolucci And Jeremy Thomas And Composer Ryuichi Sakomoto
Postcard From China Trailer
ASIN: B000216XSA
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post #276 of 314
2/23/08 at 2:57pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
This gets stranger as more information comes out. If the 2:1 transfer is something controlled by the filmmakers, where did the UK transfer come from and how old is it?

It was released by Optimum Releasing in may 2004:

Optimum Releasing: Last Emperor (Director's Cut), The
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post #277 of 314
2/23/08 at 5:46pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Tilburgs
It was released by Optimum Releasing in may 2004:

Optimum Releasing: Last Emperor (Director's Cut), The
See, sometimes 'non-filmmaker approved' is good!
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post #278 of 314
2/23/08 at 7:30pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

I think Criterion's standard is to do as the filmmakers' request if they are around to give their input. That's what I'd expect from them, even if those filmmakers' are off their rocker. One can't fault Criterion here if they were heeding the requests of Storaro and Bertolucci, IMO.
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post #279 of 314
2/23/08 at 7:51pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brandon Conway
I think Criterion's standard is to do as the filmmakers' request if they are around to give their input. That's what I'd expect from them, even if those filmmakers' are off their rocker. One can't fault Criterion here if they were heeding the requests of Storaro and Bertolucci, IMO.
True, because the consumer always has the option of not buying it.
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post #280 of 314
2/23/08 at 7:55pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Howson
True, because the consumer always has the option of not buying it.
They're not missing your money.
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post #281 of 314
2/23/08 at 8:35pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by David ©
They're not missing your money.
Hahhahah whatever. I wasn't actually referring to my money specifically. I was just suggesting that Criterion released the DVD the way they thought it should be released, anyone who doesn't think they made the right decision doesn't have to buy it.

But I'm actually pretty sure that Criterion would like to sell as many copies as they possibly can - I don't think they are a charity.

There are 5 or 6 people on the review thread who aren't buying the disc because of the cropping. I don't think that is what Criterion wanted.
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post #282 of 314
2/23/08 at 9:07pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

If I can go this long without African Queen, I can wait a few more years for them to get this film right.
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post #283 of 314
2/24/08 at 11:54am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Howson

But I'm actually pretty sure that Criterion would like to sell as many copies as they possibly can - I don't think they are a charity.

There are 5 or 6 people on the review thread who aren't buying the disc because of the cropping. I don't think that is what Criterion wanted.
In home video there's always two camps. One who wants what the filmmakers want and those who want the best presentation.

Here people want what the filmmakers want until it alters their presentation. I'm in the camp that wants the best presentation. If that means desaturating an image to gain more fine detail in the character's faces so be it.
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post #284 of 314
2/24/08 at 2:43pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdnitoil
If I can go this long without African Queen, I can wait a few more years for them to get this film right.
Imagines mdnitoil waiting 50 years until they finally release The Last Emperor in 2.35:1 on the new Super Ultra Mondo-Ray disc format. After acquiring the disc and watching the opening logos, he exclaims "At last I can see the left and right!" and immediately dies of a pulminary infection.

Also Optimum providing good transfers? I don't know what you importers are smoking but I sure as hell want some.
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post #285 of 314
2/24/08 at 5:57pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdnitoil
If I can go this long without African Queen, I can wait a few more years for them to get this film right.

That assumes there will eventually be a version with a 2.35:1 ratio, which is a big assumption given Storaro's bizarre obsession with cropping for 2.00:1. It took nine years for Last Emp to get a decent - though cropped - transfer. You wanna wait another decade or so for a possible 2.35:1 transfer?
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post #286 of 314
2/24/08 at 9:21pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Jacobson
You wanna wait another decade or so for a possible 2.35:1 transfer?

Well we're gonna have to, Colin...at least. The real question...and one that's nagging the heck out of me...is should I go ahead and get this darn release because we may NEVER get anything better..other than a BD release...and THAT may be a decade or more away. Who really knows?

Even if Criterion moves forward in a year-or-two with BD releases...who knows when they will get around to TLE? And then it will likely be 2:1.

We may need to wait until after Storaro is out-of-the-picture before a 2.35:1 release will ever come...and that could be a VERY long time from now.
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post #287 of 314
2/25/08 at 6:57am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

With any luck, someone will release a future BD version with a transfer that is *not* approved by the director/cinematographer. They can use the current Criterion transfer as a reference for color timing and just do an optimum 1080p transfer of a full-scope source. Surely somewhere out there a 2.35:1 print exists that's worthy of the task. This new distributor need not be Criterion. What studio holds the rights to this film?
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post #288 of 314
2/25/08 at 8:26am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

I'm going to make a big statement here and you will probably disagree but it still holds merit.

The chances of ever seeing this film in anything but 2.00:1 in any region from now on is to say the least bleak to non-existent. The transfer was done in high-def and the reframing/matting was done in the HD realm. The Image/Criterion transfer is therefore going to be the universal master for the film and all regions will probably use it when it comes to Blu-ray.

You're going to have to except it.
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post #289 of 314
2/25/08 at 8:36am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
The chances of ever seeing this film in anything but 2.00:1 in any region from now on is to say the least bleak to non-existent. The transfer was done in high-def and the reframing/matting was done in the HD realm. The Image/Criterion transfer is therefore going to be the universal master for the film and all regions will probably use it when it comes to Blu-ray.

From Criterion, certainly true.

But there's nothing magical about Criterion's ability to create a 1080p HD transfer. In fact, many of their DVDs derived from their HD transfers have been pretty sub-par... lots of rining and generally lacking in detail. They are really good about getting color timing correct and things that many director's focus on (framing being one of them, obviously). But when it comes to the overall transparency of the DVDs produced from these transfers, Criterion has been dissapointment... and I suspect that the fault is not merely in the downconversion to DVD given that other studios are able to downconvert to DVD with much greater transparency.

Many releases from different studios/regions (and sometimes the same studio in different areas) use different masters from different transfers. Nowdays almost all transfers are done at 1080p minimum, so there's no real obstacle to this emerging in BD from a non-Criterion source derived from another master/HD transfer.

Of course, if *that* studio seeks out the involement of Storaro to approve their transfer, the 2.0 issue will remain.
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post #290 of 314
2/27/08 at 2:24am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Dalek
The transfer was done in high-def and the reframing/matting was done in the HD realm.
When you say "reframing", do you mean that it has actually been pan and scanned, with the 2:1 frame moving side to side depending on the shots?

Or have they just taken the middle 2:1 from the 2.4:1 frame for every single shot?
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post #291 of 314
2/27/08 at 6:20am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Howson
When you say "reframing", do you mean that it has actually been pan and scanned, with the 2:1 frame moving side to side depending on the shots?
Well it appears from the Beaver comparison that in most cases the frame is dead center (which adds some slight credence to Storarro's statement that he did compose the film to 2.00:1 since the viewer's object of interest is directed to the middle), however as you can see in the theatrical cut on the second set of captions the frame has been shifted a little bit to the right where, albeit curiously, the TV version sticks with having it in the middle.
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post #292 of 314
2/27/08 at 6:33am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Dalek
however as you can see in the theatrical cut on the second set of captions the frame has been shifted a little bit to the right where, albeit curiously, the TV version sticks with having it in the middle.

I was going to post something funny (read snotty) about how Storaro was probably thinking about different compositions for both the potential 2:1 televised presentation and the 2:1 theatrical presentation. And about how Da Vinci probably was always re-composing his work, too, for different audiences. I could see him inventing an elaborate system of mattes and curtains to display his prominent works in different states depending upon who his audience was.

But I suppose it's not fair since we're talking about screen captures and someone else's thought process, etc. It's not fair.

But why wouldn't this be a lesson to any artist NOT to screw around with his work after it has been seen, appreciated and honored by the public and his peers. It is only going to create this sort of controversy and complaint. Unless, of course, THAT IS the motivation--to create said controversy. But if one is already an acclaimed artist with tangible work to prove it...why screw with it?
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post #293 of 314
2/27/08 at 6:42am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

^But the thing is we've expected this kind of stuff out of Storaro for like 20 years now. Its not a mindboggling bombshell and we're going to keep complaining about it until probably nuclear war reigns down on Italy. It has gotten to the point where I can easily say, "Oh its Storaro, he'll crop it, whatever". In fact I'm prepared to say that when we finally get a widescreen version of Ladyhawke it will be 2.00:1 and noone will care, because it will still look a vast improvement over that piece of shit we have now.
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post #294 of 314
2/27/08 at 6:47am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

I was on the periphery during the AN debate...and while I remember it being waged...it wasn't until TLE (which is a film in which the images especially moved me) that it became 'personal" for me.
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post #295 of 314
2/27/08 at 8:27am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

AN debate...and while I remember it being waged...it wasn't until TLE (which is a film in which the images especially moved me) that it became 'personal" for me.

while I am glad you see the light,the AN cropping for some reason bothers
me even more.Maybe it the fact that I just saw it in the theatre
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post #296 of 314
2/27/08 at 8:29am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

"Ladyhawke it will be 2.00:1 and noone will care, because it will still look a vast improvement over that piece of shit we have now."

I think theres a 16x9 2.35;1 version out in some country,
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post #297 of 314
2/27/08 at 9:43am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

(First Post)

I just had a look at the technical aspects for TLE over att IMDB. According to them (ww.imdb.com/title/tt0093389/technical - add an extra w, as I'm not allowed hyperlinks yet) it was shot on 35 mm negative, in Technovision, using Technovision camera and lenses and an Arriflex 35 BL camera.

The interesting part is that it was printed on both 70mm (blow-up) as well as 35mm format.

The 70mm prints had the aspect ratio of 2:20:1, whereas the other had the AR of 2:35:1.

Also interesting is the note that for Audio the 35mm prints had Dolby and the 70mm prints had a 6-Track audio (ww.imdb.com/title/tt0093389).

So for the 70 mm (blow-up) print an AR of 2:20:1 with a 6-Track audio is correct.

Whereas for a 35 mm print an AR of 2:35:1 and Dolby Audio is correct.

Now what I'm most interested in is which print (70 mm - blowup or 35 mm) did the Academy watch that made them award the film an Oscar for Best Cinematography and Best Sound?

BIP
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post #298 of 314
2/27/08 at 10:22am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

And if we get stuck with the 2.0 framing that's closer to the 70mm blow-up on home-video, why didn't we *also* get the multi-channel audio for the DVD instead of the (pretty lame) 2.0 192 kbps Dolby?
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post #299 of 314
2/27/08 at 10:45am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Dalek
You're going to have to except it.
You mean "accept" it? If so, spoken like a true Dalek. If you mean "except", that's far too accomodating and not Dalek-y at all.

Personally I picked up a used copy of the Optimum quite cheaply this past week and couldn't be happier. Looks great. So I guess I didn't accept it, or except it.
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post #300 of 314
2/27/08 at 2:10pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Dalek
Well it appears from the Beaver comparison that in most cases the frame is dead center (which adds some slight credence to Storarro's statement that he did compose the film to 2.00:1 since the viewer's object of interest is directed to the middle), however as you can see in the theatrical cut on the second set of captions the frame has been shifted a little bit to the right where, albeit curiously, the TV version sticks with having it in the middle.

I don't think so. If anything it seems like plenty of shots might be slightly off center, including ones shown in the Beaver comparison, even when it looks like they should *not* be.

And I've already noted some panning and scanning going on between a few scenes I bothered to check (because they were called to attention by others for something other than suspected panning and scanning).

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htf/...ml#post3324046

And as I stated in the review thread wrt the new Criterion blog response, I just don't buy it that TLE was originally composed for 2:1 as Storaro claimed unless someone can provide better, more conclusive evidence to support that claim. I would've been more inclined to accept his claim if it looks like the entire movie has been center cropped (w/out any notably bad effects), but the evidence (and his potential motive/agenda) just don't add up...

_Man_
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