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Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection) - Page 9

post #241 of 314
2/20/08 at 1:52pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
You can email Criterion and let them know the reason that you're not purchasing this DVD set. That will send a message.

This DVD is a "holdover" anyway... it's the 1080p Blu-ray Disc where we really have to worry, bcs that would be the definitive version and possibly the last release for a LONG time. Criterion needs to get the message now so they can work to help bring this out in its original OAR on Blu. Maybe they could help convince a certain someone that large-screen HD home-theater is more like "theater" than it is like "home video".

That's what I'm thinking as well, but is there something more effective than just an email? I guess a handwritten letter might be somewhat more effective (or maybe do both).

While a big/major studio will ignore a handful of letters, maybe Criterion (due to its much smaller/niche market) might take notice if a good number of us did write them.

BTW, does anyone significant at Criterion monitor HT/film forums like HTF? They probably at least monitor their own forums, no?

Personally, I'm fine w/ just passing on this DVD set -- and maybe go for the R2 PAL version for now, if the eventual BD will take a long while yet. What concerns me more is the eventual BD (as David points out as well). I've waited this long for a good version of TLE, I'm fine w/ waiting another couple years or so if that eventual BD will be a good one w/ the correct AR.

_Man_
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post #242 of 314
2/20/08 at 2:26pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

E-mail just sent to Criterion at their "suggestions" address:

Quote:
Hello.

I would like to request an HD release of The Last Emperor on Blu-ray disc.

I have been waiting for a quality release of this title for quite a long time. While I realize that you have a 4-disc SD version to be released February 26, I will likely NOT be buying it due to the revised aspect ratio at which it has been transferred by Vittorio Storaro.

Mr. Storaro believes that all 2.35:1 films should be released to the home market with an aspect ratio of 2:1. I do not agree. This is a film which won the Oscar for cinematography in 1987 with a 2.35:1 image. I would like to see a beautifully-restored version of that original image in my own home....not a version which has been cropped (even if Mr. Storaro was involved in the creation of the original work).

Is there any chance that a future Blu-ray release of The Last Emperor might have the full 2.35:1 image?

Thank you.

Mike Frezon
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post #243 of 314
2/20/08 at 6:20pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Neski
Well other than Ladyhawk ,which for some reason is out in 2.35:1
I think most of his other films which one would want on new Dvds films like
"Spiders Sradegen""Last Tango in Paris""Luna""Little Budda" ect.
arent 2.35;1,

Well how good would a 2 disc Criterion version of Last Tango in Paris be?

The Current MGM DVD is horrendous. SURELY Criterion could do a better version of that. They could've gone all out - new I.P. off the negative. Get Storaro to time it however he wants.

But DON'T crop it from 1.85:1 to 2:1.

I think that Last Tango should've been their back up plan in case Storaro didn't agree to release Last Emperor at 2.21:1.
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post #244 of 314
2/20/08 at 6:59pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Howson
Option 1: Insist that the film be released at a 2.21:1 ratio, preserving the 70mm release format

Option 2: Not bother releasing the film. There are thousands of other films they could've released.

Both of these options ignore the filmmakers wishes (right or wrong), either directly or indirectly, and that goes against some of the reason why Criterion is so revered.
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post #245 of 314
2/20/08 at 7:17pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris S
Both of these options ignore the filmmakers wishes (right or wrong), either directly or indirectly, and that goes against some of the reason why Criterion is so revered.

Criterion could've re-issued Last Tango in Paris instead.

Having said that, I have some vague recollection that MGM were going to release a Special Edition version.
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post #246 of 314
2/20/08 at 7:28pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Howson
...in case Storaro didn't agree to release Last Emperor at 2.21:1.

Simon: did I err in my note to Criterion by referring to TLE as a 2.35:1 film? Why are you saying 2.21:1? Is that what actually gets seen in the theaters when a 2.35:1 is shown?

I should have paid closer to attention to the dialogue between you & Doug. Or, maybe less!
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post #247 of 314
2/20/08 at 8:31pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Frezon
Simon: did I err in my note to Criterion by referring to TLE as a 2.35:1 film? Why are you saying 2.21:1? Is that what actually gets seen in the theaters when a 2.35:1 is shown?

No you didn't err. It was released 2.4:1 on 35mm prints, and slightly cropped on the sides to 2.21:1 for 70mm prints. If you look at the un-cropped image, it looks like Storaro was protecting for the 2.21:1 70mm format, because such prints would've been used for the film's premiere.

I just think that 2.21:1 would've been a reasonable compromise for Criterion and Storaro to agree on. Whereas 2.00:1 makes no sense whatsoever.
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post #248 of 314
2/21/08 at 7:10am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

The DVDFile review and he was disappointed as well....

DVDFILE.com
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post #249 of 314
2/21/08 at 7:24am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

And...so no one misses it, Matt Hough's HTF review of TLE is up as well.
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post #250 of 314
2/21/08 at 8:03am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
The DVDFile review and he was disappointed as well....

hehe... that dvdfile reviewer is me.

Thanks guys for this thread and for the poster who directed me here... because I wouldn't have known that the cropping had even taken place were it not for this very informative thread. In fact, I was about to publish that review giving all positive accolades when I discovered this thread and made some very swift modifications to notify would-be readers to this situation. THANKS HTF members!
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post #251 of 314
2/21/08 at 10:34am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

"hehe... that dvdfile reviewer is me."

I noticed
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post #252 of 314
2/21/08 at 10:38am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

FYI for those interested in checking out the extras but may be hesitant to make a purchase given the conversation above, I did a quick search through Netflix and they will be offering the Criterion version for rental.
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post #253 of 314
2/21/08 at 11:56am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Howson
Well how good would a 2 disc Criterion version of Last Tango in Paris be?

The Current MGM DVD is horrendous. SURELY Criterion could do a better version of that. They could've gone all out - new I.P. off the negative. Get Storaro to time it however he wants.

But DON'T crop it from 1.85:1 to 2:1.

You mean crop off the top and bottom to fit the 2:1 format??

Terrible thought....

....although I'm afraid Storaro in his present state of mind would be capable of doing it!
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post #254 of 314
2/21/08 at 12:15pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fabian Kusch
You mean crop off the top and bottom to fit the 2:1 format??

Terrible thought....

....although I'm afraid Storaro in his present state of mind would be capable of doing it!

But, why wouldn't he do it? I would think that he would.

It's not like he'd be impacting the composition that much or anything. It's a minor change that would then put Last Tango in Paris more aligned in composition with Da Vinci's The Last Supper. Not sure whether to insert a winking smilie here.
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post #255 of 314
2/21/08 at 2:39pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
hehe... that dvdfile reviewer is me.

Thanks guys for this thread and for the poster who directed me here... because I wouldn't have known that the cropping had even taken place were it not for this very informative thread. In fact, I was about to publish that review giving all positive accolades when I discovered this thread and made some very swift modifications to notify would-be readers to this situation. THANKS HTF members!
I think it's telling that even a film aficionado like DaViD didn't know the cropping had taken place until his attention was directed to it. *ducks and covers in preparation for the inevitable flaming*
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post #256 of 314
2/21/08 at 2:51pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
I think it's telling that even a film aficionado like DaViD didn't know the cropping had taken place until his attention was directed to it. *ducks and covers in preparation for the inevitable flaming*

That's only because I put faith in Criterion to deliver a film on DVD in its original aspect ratio.

When I first started watching the movie I actually actually thought "huh, I thought that this film was regular 2.35:1 on my old Korean Copy..." but since I didn't own the disc any longer I didn't have it to directly compare and just figured "hmm, must have remembered that wrong, because I know Criterion wouldn't make a misake with OAR."

It's really more a matter of trusting Criterion than a reflection on any one's care about film.

I certainly will say that watching the entire film, it felt more confining than the "vista" that I remember from the Korean OAR version... and once I discovered this thread I realized why.

No need for a flamesuit!

dave
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post #257 of 314
2/21/08 at 3:23pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen_J_H
I think it's telling that even a film aficionado like DaViD didn't know the cropping had taken place until his attention was directed to it. *ducks and covers in preparation for the inevitable flaming*

Nah. It's just that you're giving David Boulet too much credit as a "film aficionado."

















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post #258 of 314
2/21/08 at 3:36pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Sigh... took me a while to scroll down and see that laugh icon!
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post #259 of 314
2/21/08 at 3:43pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Sigh... took me a while to scroll down and see that laugh icon!

I'm on a roll today, David!

I hope you hadn't composed a blistering retort aimed at me!
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post #260 of 314
2/21/08 at 3:50pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
It's really more a matter of trusting Criterion than a reflection on any one's care about film.

dave
Well, as Dubya has said, "When you assume, it makes an ass outta you and a double-dumb-ass outta me."

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post #261 of 314
2/22/08 at 1:06am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Over at criterionforum (this thread: :: View topic - 422 The Last Emperor ), someone linked these, so for those interested in reading about Storaro's "theories" here they are...

Interview:
Filmmaker Magazine: Web Exclusives

His "Univisium" proposal:
http://www.cinematography.net/Files/univision.pdf

It doesn't sound like he'd crop stuff like Last Tango - basically anything wider than 2.00:1 (Apoc Now, Last Emp), but I suppose anything could happen. Sounds like he doesn't like big black bars on TV presentation...he even wants 25 fps as the universal standard.

And yet, I still have tremendous respect for him of course, as I know others do as well for his incredible work on Conformist, Last Emperor, etc.
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post #262 of 314
2/22/08 at 1:40am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivy Mike
Sounds like he doesn't like big black bars on TV presentation...he even wants 25 fps as the universal standard.
Ha! I wish him luck changing the ~80 year old projector standard from 24 to 25.

He hasn't actually had a film released theatrically in 2:1, so I'm not holding my breath.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivy Mike
And yet, I still have tremendous respect for him of course, as I know others do as well for his incredible work on Conformist, Last Emperor, etc.
I respect what he does with a film camera as well. He just shouldn't be allowed anywhere near the video transfers for the films he photographed. Get the director in to do it instead.
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post #263 of 314
2/22/08 at 5:50am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivy Mike
It doesn't sound like he'd crop stuff like Last Tango - basically anything wider than 2.00:1 (Apoc Now, Last Emp), but I suppose anything could happen.

Seeing as how it already has...I wouldn't put it past him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivy Mike
Sounds like he doesn't like big black bars on TV presentation...

Then let's put him in charge of the HD transfer of The Wizard of Oz for Blu-ray for all those new-fangled 16:9 TVs in the home and see what happens.
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post #264 of 314
2/22/08 at 9:35am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

It is important to note that every scope film Storaro has made since 1995 (with the exceptions of films like Bullworth which were shot flat) uses his 2-perf Univision format so their OAR actually is 2.00:1.

This means only about five films (of which two have yet to recieve an anamorphic transfer of any sort) whose image could be compromised by Mr. Storaro's new preferred standard.
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post #265 of 314
2/22/08 at 11:43am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
It is important to note that every scope film Storaro has made since 1995 (with the exceptions of films like Bullworth which were shot flat) uses his 2-perf Univision format so their OAR actually is 2.00:1.

I presume that presenting them on home video in 2.0 form would involve opening up the matte versus cropping off the left/right of the vertically-reduced 2.35:1 frame.
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post #266 of 314
2/22/08 at 5:06pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Dalek
It is important to note that every scope film Storaro has made since 1995 (with the exceptions of films like Bullworth which were shot flat) uses his 2-perf Univision format so their OAR actually is 2.00:1.
It's three perf.

But even some of his Univisum films aren't 2:1 on DVD, such as Renny Harlin's Exorcist Prequel. It is 2.4:1, like a regular Super 35 film.
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post #267 of 314
2/22/08 at 7:43pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
I presume that presenting them on home video in 2.0 form would involve opening up the matte versus cropping off the left/right of the vertically-reduced 2.35:1 frame.
Or in some cases like the Dune miniseries where transfering in the 2.0:1 ratio from the original negatives would expose more information on the left and right. Storaro shot Dune in Univision but the final master was cropped to 1.78:1 for the benefit of widescreen televisions overseas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Howson
It's three perf.

But even some of his Univisum films aren't 2:1 on DVD, such as Renny Harlin's Exorcist Prequel. It is 2.4:1, like a regular Super 35 film.
And he wasn't particularly happy about it which is why Storaro got his way when they did the transfer for Dominion.

And yes Univisum is three perf, somehow my mind must have mistaken it for Techniscope.
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post #268 of 314
2/22/08 at 8:40pm

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

Storaro also proposes changing the projector pull down to three perfs, rather than four, even though it has been 4 for 100+ years.

He really hasn't thought things through very well.
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post #269 of 314
2/23/08 at 8:52am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

I've finally found some time to go through most of the Criterion LE DVD, and while the 2:1 issue exists, it should not be a deal killer. While I found an occasional shot to feel cramped, and the issue of a field enlargement exists, the set is still worth one's attention.

The extras, in typical Criterion fashion, are top notch, and it would seem very doubtful that for high definition or any other uses, that the 2:1 will go away.

This is a beautifully produced set, albeit fashioned against the Criterion norm of OAR, is the best out there, and is likely to remain as such until the film is released in HD.

RAH
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post #270 of 314
2/23/08 at 10:39am

Re: Statement concerning THE LAST EMPEROR (Criterion Collection)

I understand exactly what you're saying Robert and nobody does it better than Criterion. Usually.

When Storaro insisted on cropping Apocalypse Now, I was frustrated, but, hey, it's Paramount and we take what crumbs we can get, especially when there is no alternative. Owning it doesn't put an end to the frustration, mind.

However, this is Criterion; and while it might be going a tad far to liken this to them putting their rubber stamp on an extras stuffed, pan and scan presentation of How The West Was Won, up with this I will not put. Especially when there is an alternative, transferred, more or less, how I saw it theatrically. And which left me wide eyed in wonder at such gorgeous imagery.
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