Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay! - Page 4  

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Correct; thanks for clarifying for him. As to the rest, it doesn't follow for me that:

a) Spielberg's quick willingness to okay the release of one of his masterpieces on Blu-ray, but

b) complete and utter silence on okaying any HD-DVD releases of his monumental Universal and Paramount/Dreamworks catalog for two years, when it would have been beneficial to said studios long before now in their desperate bid to carve out some major exclusives over Blu-ray, (you just know they've been putting major pressure on Spielberg for the last two years)

does not translate into a clear preferance for the Blu-ray format and a desire on his part to use whatever power he has his (which is considerable) to bring an end to the format war. He knows his alleged love for green will be boosted by a single format marketplace well over the contentious format war we've seen played out for two irritating years.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Let me see if I understand you folks. "Green", is that the one having a fixed OAR format of 6.1 x 2.6? And the number of frames often counted by hours (or months), not seconds?


Cees

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Paul, my compliments on your superior skills in deciphering his idiosyncratic puncutation. My point about Dreamworks not yet existing when Close Encounters was made remains unaffected.

What makes you think Columbia needed Spielberg's okay to release Close Encounters on Blu-ray? They own the damn thing.

People seem to forget that Spielberg's massive influence in Hollywood comes not only from his success as a director but also from his ongoing involvement as a producer -- e.g., of the movie Transformers, which, last time I looked, was an HD DVD exclusive. The very concept for the film was Spielberg's idea. He was also the producer of Flags of our Fathers and Letters from Iwo Jima, which are dual-format releases.

What "doesn't follow" is that you know anything at all about Spielberg's attitude from the available evidence.

M.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Aren't you charming? This Dreamworks/Columbia point you keep trying to push remains completely gray to me--what is your point? What are you countering that I've asserted? I have no interest in any studio with which Spielberg has directed movies--I only mean to say that he okayed, signed off on, gave the go-ahead, however you wanna phrase it, to release only one film of his own to hi-def, and it was exclusively a Blu-ray one. He's had ample time to back that up with HD-DVD releases if he a) found validity in the format and/or b) wanted to counter the format war in HD-DVD's favor or even (for reasons I can't begin to conjecture) felt that it would be more profitable to retain the format war than help end it and/or c) wanted to cultivate goodwill with and increase the immediate profitability of the two studios with whom he's worked most over his lengthy career and he has not.


They don't need his permission, but it's common knowledge that none of the studios with whom Spielberg works want to threaten that relationship in any manner. There's no way in hell Sony would have moved forward with their CE3K plans if Spielberg had requested they hold off on it.


If you mean to equate Spielberg's sense of ownership with the films he's directed to the ones he's produced, I think you're making the most specious comparison I've read in some time. The films he directs are for passion, the ones he produces are for profit (POLTERGEIST being the notable exception). I'm positive the studios have much more free reign with Spielberg productions than his "Directed By"s.


Did I mention you're quite charming?

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Do you have a source for this other than "common knowledge"? The only thing that comes close to being "common knowledge" about Spielberg is that he prefers to defer release of his films on a medium until the hardware has reached a high level of penetration so as to maximize profit. That can hardly be said for any HDM today.

Yes you did, but coming from someone who opened this part of the discussion with the following . . .
. . . that's not saying much.

M.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

M:

Thanks.
And I agree with the point.

Travis:

This issue has been discussed at length; do a search. Briefly . . .


Michael is quite capable of speaking for himself but, if I may, I think what he meant was/is to refer to the professionally significant difference between the, on the one hand, projects Steven has directed versus, on the other, projects on which he was a producer and has an ownership stake. Steven was a younger director and not yet a founding partner of DW at the time of CE3K. Steven has a much longer, deeper relationship with Universal than he does Columbia. Columbia owns CE3K and they could release that without Steven's permission. His desire to participate to hopefully make for a better release than past home vid incarnations (which I've been told he has been unhappy with) does not necessarily mean he exclusively endorses the format on which the movie is appearing.


Not true. See above.


Sorry but this is wrong. And this is not my opinion; it's just not the way the industry works. Being a producer on a project MAY mean you or your company played a role in getting the picture financed and thereby MAY mean you or your company may be a co-owner of the picture. Even a director as senior as Ridley Scott doesn't have an ownership stake on a project on which he is JUST a director. If it's a Scott Free production and he's a producer, then that's different. Ridley learned this lesson the hard way with Gladiator; notice how he's been a producer on every "serious"/Academy contender picture he's done since then?

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Except that it wasn't a personal slight; your comments were.

And Paul.S, your skills at "deciphering my idiosyncratic puncutation" aside, your post shows such an extreme (from my point of view) lack of comprehension as to the points I'm trying to make (simply put, you appear to have answered my "apples" with "oranges"--it reads almost like a non sequiter to me, so I either wasn't clear enough, or you just didn't "get it"), that I'm clueless on how to respond further. I'll opine only that my argument that "Sony would not have moved forward with their CE3K plans if Spielberg had requested they hold off on it" is not nullified by you simply posting your opinion, then capping it with "Not true. See above." In any case, I certainly didn't walk into this discussion expecting such vehemence to my opinion; if I'm wrong, I'm wrong--joy to the HD-DVD crowd...but I still call bullshit.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Actually, no, I can't leave the discussion at that because the basic fact is that we are left with two possibilities:

1) I'm right.

2) Paul.S and Michael "I like to attack people, not just opinions" Reuben are right and Universal and (for a lesser time) Paramount have been sitting on a huge Spielebrg catalog for two years and, while they were looking for any avenue to create a huge advantage for their HD-DVD product over the competitor's, for two years they never once in two years looked at the fact that they each own a sizable chunk of the works of the pre-eminent box-offce-draw director of the last quarter century and thought, "Hey, I bet I know how we can knock Blu-ray down a good peg or two overnight!" Only now, in their 11th and darkest hour, does it occur to them? It stains credibility for me to think of one studio being that blind to their own ace in the hole, but two studios??? If you guys are right, then their blessed HD-DVD deserves to die for such ineptitude.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

I fail to see how. You're the one making personal observations about my "charm" (and, while I was composing this, giving me nicknames).

Between Paul's comments and mine, I don't feel any need to add anything to the Spielberg point; so I'm going to leave it. You do as you wish.

M.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

I'm not an HD DVD partisan, however, with all due respect, I do not understand your reasoning. Directors are work-for-hire employees; therefore, they have no ownership in the projects that they work on; therefore, they will have no influence on what the owner of the project does with his/her property. The director may not like the results, but he/she has no say in the decision. Directors who interfere with the owner's prerogatives either quit or get fired just like any regular employee.

On the other hand, a producer probably has an ownership stake in the project; therefore, he/she has a greater say in how the project is handled. That being said, since Spielberg has been the producer on many projects, he would have a say as to how those projects are released on home video. If Spielberg had a format preference, the projects in which he was a producer would most likely be the ones in which his preference comes forward. If Spielberg preferred Blu-ray then TRANSFORMERS, which he probably has an ownership stake in, would not have been released on HD DVD. In fact, several of the films where he was the producer also would not have been released on HD DVD if he indeed had a strong enough preference for BD, since he would have used his influence to prevent their release on HD DVD. Films that he has produced have been released on HD DVD so, to me, that is the strongest indicator that he couldn't care less what format the films are released on.

Being a professional and a long time participant in the Hollywood machnine, Spielberg would understand how the system works: therefore, he would understand that he has no input, other than by means of invitation or recompense, as to how his earlier films are released or otherwise made available to the viewing public.

A studio like SONY Pictures would, out of respect for Spielberg's stature, try to obtain his approval or participation when releasing films he has worked on; however, if he turned down their offer then they could release his director only films in a pizza box covered with tomatoe sauce stains, and he would have no say.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Other than CE3K Sony doesn't have any real relationship with Spielberg, so they aren't risking much by releasing a film that they own. What they did risk was maximizing the number of units they would move. With all the BD capable devices out there they sold approx 13K copies of CE3K. Had they waited a few years they would have sold a lot more.

Universal can release some of his early films if they want to. Based on the fact that the catalog window is small they have chosen to wait until there are enough players out to make it worthwhile, just like they did with DVD. Its economics, not politics. The number of titles Sony sold of CE3K validates their strategy. It is only now that they have their backs against the wall that they are possible rethinking that. I have no idea what their ultimate decision will be. The Universal executives that I have spoken with have told me that Spielberg has never put any restrictions on what titles they can release, but based on their relationship with him they want to do them right, and that means a big selling release, something that NEITHER HD format can deliver on catalog yet.

Edit: CE3K sales were approx 13K Not 11K

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Thx, Adam.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

In post #93, you drew first blood by insulting my both my command of grammar (at the beginning) and my general intelligence (at the end), long before I walked through the door you opened on personal commentary.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

You're the first person to nail exactly what I've been saying; the only part you left off, from the angle I've been arguing is, "however, if he turned down their offer, then they could release his director-only films in a pizza box covered with tomato sauce stains, and he would have no say, but they very likely wouldn't."

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

You make a poor equation--a) DVD was a hit right out of the gate and b) DVD had no direct competition. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying if Universal has designed its HD-DVD release strategy after the original DVD model, all the while watching their fish-of-choice flop about and slowly die out of water, then again, that is ineptitude of the lowest order, and they deserve to fail in the format war. And what's with the implication that, as Blu-ray's penetration increases over the next few years, sales of CE3K will remain at the level they are now? People only buy movies if they've just been released in the last few months?[/quote]


Gosh, they'd have no reason to bend the truth to minimize image damage with a rapidly retreating buying public, would they?

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Actually Spielberg directed Hook for Columbia/Sony and produced Men in Black, the Zorro films, Evolution, and maybe a few others for them that I can't think of off the top of my head.

But having said that Sony defiantly has a history releasing at least Close Encounters with out Spielberg's approval, and apparently to his annoyance. And he has a MUCH closer relationship with Universal, particularly with his offices on the Universal lot.

Doug

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

They would and they have. The single disc laserdisc and the single disc DVD releases of Close Encounters were not approved by Spielberg and he was, according to the director of photography on Close Encounters, not happy with those releases.

Doug

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

This was months ago before the buying public was "rapidly retreating". I also put more faith in them than your unnamed sources. I have never seen any insider say that Spielberg will not allow any of his films to be released on HD DVD, and he will only allow them to be released on Blu-ray.


DVD wasn't a hit right out of the gate. True there was no format war, but players were expensive and they didn't launch with that many titles. Additionally several studios didn't support DVD when it initially launched (if I remember right Disney, Fox and Universal?), and then there was the DIVX fiasco. It wasn't until player prices came down and more people started buying them that we started to see some major catalog titles released. How long did it take for Star Wars to come out on DVD?

Historically, catalog titles sell well the first week or two and then go down hill from there. There are some exceptions like Christmas movies that may sell well every November. Will some new BD owners buy CE3K two years from now? Sure, but keep in mind that titles (esp catalog) are only advertised (if at all) during a one to two week period around the release. People talk about them when they first come out. CE3K is a great example. When that was announced there was a HUGE buzz about the title, then it died down. When it was released there was some buzz. Now no one really talks about it unless it's part of a Spielberg format war discussion. B&M stores will get them in and keep them for a while, then clear them off the shelf to make room for "new" catalog releases. If a title was released and advertised when there is a higher number of players it will sell more than if it is released early on, even though it will have been available for longer and still have some sales trickly through.

As to Universals strategy of not releasing some of their A+++ catalog, well feel free to disagree with them. They have a lot more data that they are looking at then we see to make their determination. What if some of those titles need some TLC? Spending big bucks now on a title that will take years to sell enough to recoup the costs might not be in their best interest.

I do understand your general point about Paramount and Universal needing to do more than they currently are if they want to keep HD DVD afloat. I wish I was a fly on the wall in their post WB strategy meetings so I would have a better understanding on what their plan is because I don't get it. I understand why they are saving the super big catalog titles based on my conversations with them, but I would have expected to see announcements on titles like Gladiator, Braveheart, Conan and Legend after the WB switch. The fact that we haven't makes me wonder what the plan is.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Douglas thanks for the correction. I was trying to get to the fact that he has more history with Paramount (I didn't say good history) and Universal. As a filmmaker he has a relationship with all the studios, but there is a difference between Sony and Univeral as you pointed out. I don't think we have to worry about Hook being released on BD anytime soon....

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

I wonder what the barometer of success is, considering that DVD is the most successfull and more importantly the 'fastest' selling CE format, ever. By the way, if you closely look at the comparative sales figures of DVD and HDM, you will see that HDM is so far, right on track to match the success of DVD.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

No disagreement that it is the most successfull, important and fastest selling format, but it in my opinion for the reasons I listed it still wasn't a hit right out of the gate...it took some time for "the masses" to buy into it. That's when it really took off. In my opinion HDM hasn't hit that point yet, and I think it will be a tougher sell for "the masses" to switch from DVD to HDM.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Exactly, and the reason is the same: the switch to HD would be from "the most successfull, important and fastest selling format", while the switch to DVD was away from VHS and laserdisc.


Cees

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Okay, if true, fair enough (though it would be great if you could cite your sources), but accepting that case for argument, it looks like you are also saying that the multiple disc Criterion and Columbia/TriStar LaserDiscs, as well as the multiple disc DVD, were approved by Spielberg. By extension, the multiple disc Blu-ray release must certainly have been approved by Spielberg, which in every meaningful way, supports my case.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

As with Sanjay Gupta, you and I have radically different ideas of what constitutes a hit. Oh, and as far as "major catalog releases", titles like BLADE RUNNER and BATMAN hit right out of the gate on DVD...and we're two years into the new formats; if you look at major catalog releases, DVD had tons by now. Lastly, using STAR WARS as some measuring bar is a fool's errand; it's always been the final holy grail to appear in almost every format, even down to pay channel cable TV. True there was no format war, but players were expensive and they didn't launch with that many titles. Additionally several studios didn't support DVD when it initially launched (if I remember right Disney, Fox and Universal?), and then there was the DIVX fiasco. It wasn't until player prices came down and more people started buying them that we started to see some major catalog titles released. How long did it take for Star Wars to come out on DVD?


I would argue the impessive bar set by CE3K in terms of quantity, quality and overall packaging will keep it alive and well on shelves long after lesser effort catalog releases have come and gone. BLADE RUNNER and CE3K have set major standards for catalog releases. I doubt many others will meet them.


I do, oh most vehemently.


Foolishness; whatever data Universal's been depending on proved to be asbout as reliable as the "wepons of mass destruction" reports of six years ago. They could have been releasing relatively bare-bones versions of Spielberg's catalog titles over the last two years, to inject life in an anemic-from-the-start format (and I mean that vs. Blu-ray, not vs. DVD), then follow up in a few more years when hi-def media has really penetrated the marketplace and gussy up those releases with tricked-out multiple-disc special editions (like CE3K, come to think of it). Studios don't have only one crack at securing public interest in a catalog title.


Good to find some common ground; I say again, whomever is right in the play-by-play of our current debate, in the end, Universal and Paramount deserve to have HD-DVD fail because they've mismanaged the hell out of it.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Travis,
You have crossed the line a number of times with some of your posts escalating personal confrontations not only in this thread, but in other threads. It is not wise to become the topic of discussion for the HTF Moderator Staff so please comply with this warning. Thank you.





Crawdaddy

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

I think the key to what Adam is saying is that it wasn't a hit right out of the gate.

Here is just a snippet of info on the launch - Anyone who was an early adopter (like me) will remember the utter lack of titles released or even available - plus really high costs for players and movies (plus the irritating Divx debacle).

"After agreeing on copy protection and other items, the DVD-ROM and DVD-Video standards were officially announced in late 1996. Players, drives, and discs were announced in January 1997 at the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in Las Vegas, and the players and discs became available in March 1997. The initial players were about $1,000 each. Only 36 movies were released in the first wave, and they were available only in seven cities nationwide (Chicago, Dallas, Los Angeles, New York, San Francisco, Seattle, and Washington, D.C.) until August 1997 when the full release began. After a somewhat rocky start (much had to do with agreements on copy protection to get the movie companies to go along, and there was a lack of titles available in the beginning), DVD has become an incredible success."

I remember Fox was nowhere to be found and Universal released full frame versions of a few movies in CD style cases - just a mess!

So, by all accounts (and as my memory serves) the launch of DVD had a rocky start.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Not to belabor the point or get too far off the topic of this thread - but reminding myself of the launch of DVD provides some interesting perspective to this format struggle. It is interesting to see that, despite being launched in March of 97, it wasn't until 98 that Disney, Fox and Paramount started releasing on DVD...and it wasn't until 1999 that Blockbuster started carrying DVD.

Anyway - it is good to refresh myself on history to help understand the present


1997
Warner announces its first 30 DVD titles, a list that includes "Blade Runner," "Casablanca" and "Twister." Meanwhile, using the open DVD standard, Circuit City teams with an entertainment law firm to launch the rival pay-per-view format Digital Video Express (Divx), which ultimately loses $337 million.

1998
About 1.4 million U.S. homes have DVD players and disc revenue hits $350 million. Lieberfarb works to bring holdouts Disney, Fox and Paramount into the fold. He gets the last on in, Fox, by convincing Time Warner to carry Fox News on its cable systems. Online DVD rental service Netflix is founded.

1999
Par's "Titanic" becomes the first DVD title to ship 1 million units. That pic will soon be surpassed by Warners' "The Matrix," which ships 1.5 million discs. Four million U.S. households have DVD players by year's end, and Blockbuster announces the addition of DVD rentals.
(from Variety.com)

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Also, for most of 1997 there was only one DVD player which was the Sony-7000 that retailed for $999.99 The waiting list for that player and some others were quite extensive that Fall.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

Perhaps the more salient point here is that the sales of DVD were always on a marked incline from the starting point and HD-DVD's have not been; couple that with the fact that arguing 1997 DVD numbers is specious unless the focus of comparison in our debate was concentrated to just 2006 HD-DVD numbers. Any debate of HD-DVD's viability vis-a-vis DVD's must take 1997-1999 into account.

Re: Universal's Graffeo: HD DVD is here to stay!

No, because it's not comparable at all.
As I said in my post #112, DVD wasn't up to a formidable format (DVD) like HD is now.


Cees