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Exodus

post #1 of 42
1/20/08 at 6:48am
Thread Starter 
Last night I stumbled upon a screening of Otto Preminger's "Exodus" on the FilmFest HD channel. It looked absolutely perfect. It even included the intermission title card. Does this mean there'll be an upcoming new release of the film on DVD? The current disc, to put it charitably, looks a lot less than perfect.

Thanks,
Bill
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post #2 of 42
1/20/08 at 8:02am

Re: Exodus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Huelbig
Last night I stumbled upon a screening of Otto Preminger's "Exodus" on the FilmFest HD channel. It looked absolutely perfect. It even included the intermission title card. Does this mean there'll be an upcoming new release of the film on DVD? The current disc, to put it charitably, looks a lot less than perfect.

Thanks,
Bill
Nothing has been announced. It really deserves a special edition treatment, with the film split across two discs. Eva Marie Saint and Paul Newman could provide interviews or a commentary as well. There was a new Preminger biography issued a few months ago, with another one on the way next month, so there should be lots of people to contribute to a good release of this film.

I absolutely love the film, I think Preminger was at the absolute height of his directing powers when he made it (not that Advise & Consent, The Cardinal, In Harms Way, or Bunny Lake is Missing are bad!)

The current DVD I own is hilariously bad, even by MGM's lame standards.

It is from a 35mm element rather than 70mm, it is non-anamorphic, it is interlaced, and the audio is only 2.0.

They made just about every mistake there is to make with a DVD transfer of any film, let alone one originally shot in Super Panavision.
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post #3 of 42
1/20/08 at 10:59am

Re: Exodus

As Newman and Saint pretty much hated making the film, I wouldn't count on them for further elaboration. But Foster Hirsch, author of the Preminger bio, might speak up. The chapter in the book is very good.
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post #4 of 42
1/20/08 at 6:07pm

Re: Exodus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Cashill
As Newman and Saint pretty much hated making the film, I wouldn't count on them for further elaboration. But Foster Hirsch, author of the Preminger bio, might speak up. The chapter in the book is very good.
See I don't think interviews with actors should just be "Yeah he/she/it was great to work with". I'd like to see interviews of them explain why they DIDN'T like making the film. That would actually be interesting for a change, most actor interviews on DVDs are pointless.
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post #5 of 42
1/20/08 at 7:33pm

Re: Exodus

I don't disagree--but as I said, I can't imagine actors who disliked making a film wanting to spend the time to plow old ground again. As it is, I don't think EXODUS is a career highpoint for either performer (both seem uncomfortable in their roles, and Preminger, distrustful of Method acting, did little to accommodate them) but there are stories to be told, if not by them than by others.
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post #6 of 42
1/20/08 at 9:35pm

Re: Exodus

The region 4 MGM transfer is nothing short of absolutely appalling. The audio is atrocious uglyyyyyyyy.

I read an article on Preminger (a magazine given to me by my nan) and from what I can gather, he was a bit of a bastard to work with. I always remember a radio interview with Jean Simmons telling the story of when he directed Angel Face with her and Robert Mitchum. In the scene where Mitchum slaps her, Preminger apparently made him do it over and over again so that he was really hurting her. Seeing Jean's distress, Mitchum became so enraged that he turned around and belted Preminger instead.

Peter Lawford who also acted in Exodus (can't remember what part he plays as I haven't seen it in years), didn't like him either. The cast also had rocks thrown at them by a few not-so-happy local people.

I think many film directors believed Method acting was purely for the stage - not the screen.

If you have a bad experience on a film set, you shouldn't have to relive it if you choose not to. Just like working in a regular job, perhaps you don't want to bitch about it to all and sundry. Makes interesting viewing for us, but probably makes the person in question uncomfortable.
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post #7 of 42
1/21/08 at 6:39pm

Re: Exodus

Newman and Saint are among many actors with unpleasant memories of working with Preminger. The stories actors have about working with Preminger and what an s.o.b. he was are legion. Jean Simmons can't even watch Angel Face because it brings up so many nasty memories. Shortly after working with Preminger on In Harms Way, Paula Prentiss had a nervous breakdown. Coincidence? Faye Dunaway hated him so much that she bought out her contract rather than ever work with him again. Tom Tryon was so miserable working with Preminger, that he lost all interest in acting and became a writer.
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post #8 of 42
1/21/08 at 6:47pm

Re: Exodus

I think that Sal Mineo's scene where he's sworn into the Irgun is a classic though.
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post #9 of 42
1/21/08 at 6:52pm

Re: Exodus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Nicholls
I think that Sal Mineo's scene where he's sworn into the Irgun is a classic though.
One of the few scenes in the film where Preminger cuts to a proper close-up.
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post #10 of 42
1/21/08 at 7:04pm

Re: Exodus

This film has more camera shadows at the bottom of the frame than any I have ever seen.
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post #11 of 42
1/21/08 at 8:18pm

Re: Exodus

There are two sides to some of those coins, Dunaway in particular (no one liked her on HURRY SUNDOWN). And Tryon just wasn't destined for great things on the screen, not that it excuses conduct toward him. Do read the book; it's most illuminating.
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post #12 of 42
1/21/08 at 10:27pm

Re: Exodus

I like Saul Bass's opening credit titles and Ernest Gold's accompanying music. The remaining four hours are tedious beyond belief.
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post #13 of 42
1/21/08 at 10:33pm

Re: Exodus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark B
This film has more camera shadows at the bottom of the frame than any I have ever seen.
It also has more camera movement in a 65mm film than I've ever seen. Maybe those things to together?

I've never actually noticed any camera shadows in the film, but then again I've only watched it via the horrid DVD.
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post #14 of 42
1/21/08 at 11:40pm

Re: Exodus

You really like it Simon? I like it as well.

Pity the disgraceful DVD doesn't do it justice.
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post #15 of 42
1/22/08 at 3:49am

Re: Exodus

Quote:
Originally Posted by BethHarrison
You really like it Simon? I like it as well.
Yes, very much.

In particular I love the scene where Paul Newman - impersonating a British officer - gets a whole convoy of trucks into the refugee camp. There is a shot where Newman shows some forged paper work to some actual British officers which Preminger stages in one shot via a short track to the right, pan to the left, then a pan to the right. Because the film was shot in Super Panavision, there is so much resolution in the image that you can see all the refugees looking in, many of them sharply focussed in the background.

For nearly any other director that would've required at least 4 or 5 shots, but Preminger does it in one, and just gets actors to move towards or away from the camera to achieve close-ups. There's even a guy who is sitting down below the frame line who stands up as the camera pans. It's small things like that that I think are brilliant pieces of direction.

Of course this is now considered a bad way to make films that drives audiences insane. But I think it is a very eloquent way to direct the film, because it forces the audiences to make up their own mind about what is going on. You aren't hammered over the head with a message about who is right and who is wrong, you have to sit there and figure it out for yourself.
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post #16 of 42
1/22/08 at 4:23am

Re: Exodus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark B
This film has more camera shadows at the bottom of the frame than any I have ever seen.

Actually, my dad pointed out the shadow of the boom microphone when Kitty kisses Ari for the first time (the scene just before we meet Lee.J.Cobb). You don't notice it if you don't look for it, bit when you see it, it tends to be distracting

Way to kill the big romantic moment.
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post #17 of 42
1/22/08 at 4:48am

Re: Exodus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simon Howson
Yes, very much.

In particular I love the scene where Paul Newman - impersonating a British officer - gets a whole convoy of trucks into the refugee camp. There is a shot where Newman shows some forged paper work to some actual British officers which Preminger stages in one shot via a short track to the right, pan to the left, then a pan to the right. Because the film was shot in Super Panavision, there is so much resolution in the image that you can see all the refugees looking in, many of them sharply focussed in the background.

For nearly any other director that would've required at least 4 or 5 shots, but Preminger does it in one, and just gets actors to move towards or away from the camera to achieve close-ups. There's even a guy who is sitting down below the frame line who stands up as the camera pans. It's small things like that that I think are brilliant pieces of direction.

Of course this is now considered a bad way to make films that drives audiences insane. But I think it is a very eloquent way to direct the film, because it forces the audiences to make up their own mind about what is going on. You aren't hammered over the head with a message about who is right and who is wrong, you have to sit there and figure it out for yourself.
That's a very good analysis and one that I agree with. I understand what Preminger was after in his directing style although I find it hard to explain. There may have been a method to his meanness that served the film. I've been wanting to see EXODUS again. Let's hope the perfect transfer Bill Huelbig saw on HD television finds its way to home video soon.
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post #18 of 42
1/22/08 at 5:06am
Thread Starter 

Re: Exodus

I can't overstate how beautiful the film looked on that HD channel. In the scene where the UN is voting for the partition of Palestine, every face in the huge crowd stood out in amazing detail. After seeing "Exodus" like that - like seeing it in a brand new 70mm print - I'll find it hard to ever watch the DVD again.
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post #19 of 42
1/22/08 at 6:05am

Re: Exodus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard--W
That's a very good analysis and one that I agree with. I understand what Preminger was after in his directing style although I find it hard to explain. There may have been a method to his meanness that served the film. I've been wanting to see EXODUS again. Let's hope the perfect transfer Bill Huelbig saw on HD television finds its way to home video soon.
Preminger obviously had very specific ideas of how he wanted each shot to look. It seems that he became irate whenever actors did something that departed from how he saw the shot happening in his head. Moreover he produced all his films from Carmen Jones onwards, so when he wasn't getting what he wanted it isn't like he could blame the producer, so he just blamed the actors instead.

Still, it is quite astonishing to see some of the complicated action that he could cover in one shot, so it seems he achieved what he wanted most of the time.
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post #20 of 42
1/22/08 at 8:08am

Re: Exodus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Huelbig
I can't overstate how beautiful the film looked on that HD channel. In the scene where the UN is voting for the partition of Palestine, every face in the huge crowd stood out in amazing detail. After seeing "Exodus" like that - like seeing it in a brand new 70mm print - I'll find it hard to ever watch the DVD again.


Um, I wouldn't go THAT far. There was a LOT of edge enhancement on the HD version I saw on FILM FEST HD last weekend, and the opening credits in particular were flooded with little scratches. The color was good all the way through, and I'm sure it's a huge leap in quality over the DVD, but this new HD master is far from perfect - if it's even new. I suspect it's a few yrs old, though why it wasn't downconverted to make an anamorphic DVD I don't know.

Why did HDNET MOVIES show a gorgeous I COULD GO ON SINGING in hi-def a few months after MGM released a non-anamorphic horrendous version on DVD (the same master used for the 1989 Laserdisc)? I don't understand how these mixups happen.
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post #21 of 42
1/22/08 at 9:09am

Re: Exodus

I find it interesting how all the above comments focus on Preminger's technique, what we in the trade used to call mise-en-scene, and indeed that is how Preminger earned his reputation among cinephiles of the 50s and 60s. His photographic fluency took precedence over the content - otherwise Exodus is a wordy, hectoring, sentimental paean to the foundation of Israel, with the best-looking actor in the world as the terrorist-freedom fighter and a little blonde girl as a concentration camp survivor. Call me concentration camp cynical, but this movie is pretty gross. Apart from the camerawork of course!

I do, though, like The Cardinal, Anatomy of a Murder and Advise and Consent. I saw Preminger, interviewed on stage at the NFT, and he was pretty outrageous. He also made a legendary appearance on Desert Island Discs - a deeply traditional and pretigious BBC radio show - on which he chose six soundtracks of his own movies, his book choice was his own autobiography and his luxury was a mirror. The presenter, Roy Plomley, was not amused.
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post #22 of 42
1/22/08 at 9:47am

Re: Exodus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chuck Pennington
Why did HDNET MOVIES show a gorgeous I COULD GO ON SINGING in hi-def a few months after MGM released a non-anamorphic horrendous version on DVD (the same master used for the 1989 Laserdisc)? I don't understand how these mixups happen.

The laserdisc and the DVD are not the same. Look at the opening credits, for example. The font is different and the timing of them also (by timing I mean when they appear in relation to the background images and music). In fact, the laserdisc had Ronald Neame's credit over the approaching car, whereas the DVD has his credit prior to the dissolve. The laserdisc also has "The End" over the last shot and the DVD does not. The laser has Judy's "Hello Bluebird" jacket timed as blue, and in the DVD it is green.

Anyway, back to EXODUS.
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post #23 of 42
1/22/08 at 1:23pm

Re: Exodus

I am sure I read somewhere that Exodus does not survive in its 70mm form and all negs etc have been lost. Even the recent CD of the wonderful score sounds like it came from a cassette which adds credence to idea that all the materials asssociated with this film have been lost. Let's hope we get a decent transfer eventually.I have refused to purchase the MGM mess but have fond memories of the last 70mm screening I saw at London's NFT.
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post #24 of 42
1/22/08 at 3:14pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Exodus

Chuck P.: I guess the word "perfect" is inaccurate after all. But compared to the DVD, the Film Fest HD screening was a revelation. I've always liked the movie and would buy it again in a minute if it looked like that.
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post #25 of 42
1/22/08 at 4:41pm

Re: Exodus

...
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post #26 of 42
1/22/08 at 11:49pm

Re: Exodus

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianTurner
I find it interesting how all the above comments focus on Preminger's technique, what we in the trade used to call mise-en-scene, and indeed that is how Preminger earned his reputation among cinephiles of the 50s and 60s. His photographic fluency took precedence over the content
I don't think there is a true dichotomy between form and content, they are both aspects of the same thing - the conversion of story into a film's image (well, and soundtrack). The style of the film inflects the story by adding or removing emphasis to different events. I find it hard that how events are filmed is unimportant to the over all effect of the narrative.

The sequence I described is a triumph of cinematography and mise-en-scene, but - as I tried to explain - it helps create a unique point of view for the film where the audience is forced to form their own judgment about the events.

But if all there is in that sequence is mise-en-scene, then I hope that is a cinema we can go back to.
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post #27 of 42
1/23/08 at 5:35am

Re: Exodus

I'm surprised no one has mentioned his relationship with Dorothy Dandridge, which proved detrimental to her psyche after several years (it started with their time together on Carmen Jones)- he had promised to leave his wife but didn't, so she left him. She signed to do Porgy & Bess with Rouben Mamoulian (who directed the stage version) as director, but Samuel Goldwyn fired Mamoulian in a dispute and replaced him with Preminger. Apparently Goldwyn felt that the Preminger-Dandridge teaming would create movie magic a second time. (Ironically years earlier Otto replaced Mamoulian as the director of Laura, the film that first made him famous in America). Things were very strained between the ex-lovers on the set, and both her leading men, Sidney Poitier and Brock Peters, were disgusted with the way the director treated her. When you consider the number of leading ladies who worked under him who later suffered from mental illnesses, and the list is quite a long one:

Marilyn Monroe (of whom he said, "Directing her is like directing Lassie")
Gene Tierney
Maggie McNamara
Paula Prentiss
Jean Seberg
Dorothy Dandridge
Jennifer O'Neill

you do wonder what he felt about the opposite sex in real life. On the other hand, he did have a successful third marriage and spent his later years as a devoted father. But the stories of his treatment of actresses is disturbing......
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post #28 of 42
1/23/08 at 6:05am

Re: Exodus

Has anyone seen Preminger's version of Porgy & Bess? I wish I could see it, but it seems that it is a film where various estates don't want it released.

Also, if you read the Foster Hirsch biography, it doesn't sound like Preminger's wife ever wants Skidoo to see the light of day again. She summarises her thoughts on the film by saying
Quote:
[Otto] knew the film didn't work. He really hated it, as I do still. I wish people would just forget about it.

Personally I don't like it when people say what dead filmmakers think about their films. But if she has any say whatsoever in which of Preminger's Paramount films make it onto DVD, it seems she will never allow it while she is alive.

Sad really, because I'm sure it would be a hilarious train wreck of a film.

Hopefully Paramount at least release Hurry Sundown...
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post #29 of 42
1/23/08 at 8:30am

Re: Exodus

Well, the whole Porgy & Bess thing is complicated. You've got the Gershwin estate supposedly blocking it because the movie version wasn't as good as the original opera (the family hated the idea of Mamoulian being replaced by Preminger). Then there's the issue of groups like the NAACP not being happy about the film- while filming was about to be made, there was pressure on Sidney Poitier not to do the film. Well, as a person of color I liked the film as a kid, and looked forward to seeing it on TV on Sunday afternoons when the local station used to play it several times a year until around 1980 or so. I remember that my parents had a '101 Strings' album of selections from the score, and I played the hell out of it. I just hope the original elements are still around for a restoration and God willing, a future DVD release with extras. Sidney Poitier and Diahann Carroll are still around, so maybe they can give commentary, along with Samuel Goldwyn, Jr. and Preminger's son Erik. Let us have today's audience and critics get the the opportunity to see the film and judge its merits.
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post #30 of 42
1/23/08 at 8:36am

Re: Exodus

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark B
The laserdisc and the DVD are not the same. Look at the opening credits, for example. The font is different and the timing of them also (by timing I mean when they appear in relation to the background images and music). In fact, the laserdisc had Ronald Neame's credit over the approaching car, whereas the DVD has his credit prior to the dissolve. The laserdisc also has "The End" over the last shot and the DVD does not. The laser has Judy's "Hello Bluebird" jacket timed as blue, and in the DVD it is green.

Anyway, back to EXODUS.


I don't know I COULD GO ON SINGING inside and out like you apparently do, but the image on both formats looked terribly soft and murky. Both transfers are pretty hideous. Agree? The film looked nothing like either DVD or LD release when it was on HDNET MOVIES 2 yrs ago.
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