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HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

post #1 of 27
1/16/08 at 11:04pm
Thread Starter 
Found this thread ( Why "super upconversion" should NOT replace Blu-Ray/HD DVD - Page 15 - High-Def Digest Forums ), where people talk about "super upconversion" with Toshiba and SD DVDs (upscaling). There are some promo pictures, I assume.

Now do this just mean the normal "NTSC/PAL to 1080p upscaling" or something more?

It just feels like cheating if Toshiba is marketing something that is just as good with e.g. PS3 and even with some more expensive SD DVD-players (upscaling)..

I have compared my PS3 and Toshiba with SD DVD upscaling, and they´re at least equal (PS3 looked a bit sharper in that time).

So what´s this term "super upconversion"?
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post #2 of 27
1/17/08 at 6:21am

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

Never heard of it, but skimming the info it looks like it is just a more advanced scaling algorithm. As far as "cheating" is concerned, you shouldn't get so upset. Marketing is full of these silly things that sound good but in reality are just so much BS. Ever hear of the term "Full HD"?
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post #3 of 27
1/17/08 at 8:38am

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

Quote:
[Ever hear of the term "Full HD"?
Or "BEYOND HD"?
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post #4 of 27
1/17/08 at 8:59am

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobertR
Or "BEYOND HD"?
Well full HD is usually used to differentiate 1080p from 720p or even 1080i.

Beyond HD is reaching a little, though you could argue it does the same. I think they want it to resonlate as "beyond broadcast HD" since the quality on media should be superior to over-compressed, over-filtered broadcast.

They have to do something to spruce it up and give people reason to watch something other than live HDTV. And they can't say "ultra," since there's already UHDTV, which is, what 4 times the pixels each way of HDTV, not that you're likely to see it in action anytime soon.
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post #5 of 27
1/17/08 at 1:32pm
Thread Starter 

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

First it was that "Toshiba is great in upscaling" in every forum and some people actually believed that it would somehow magically turn their SD DVDs into something spectacular and "close to HD".

Now it´s that "Toshiba does super upconversion"!

Oh boy, people sometimes believe what they want to believe..

(This doesn´t mean that Toshiba is not great in upscaling or anything. Just that many other players have quality upscaling/de-interlacing chip - not just Toshiba)

(..and SD DVD will never look "like HD", even with "super-hyper-Toshiba-upconversion" etc)

But perhaps those "masses" will believe that, that´s probably what Toshiba is hoping for..

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post #6 of 27
1/17/08 at 1:41pm

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

It is simply what they call their upconversion technology. They could have used mega wonderful, better than sony, or just different than the other guys upconversion technology.

Since when was there any truth in marketing, how many SE or Ultimate DVD's have left you scratching your head.

Bad thing is that if it works Bose may come out with Super Paper Cone Technology
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post #7 of 27
1/17/08 at 2:00pm

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

Quote:
Beyond HD is reaching a little
That reach seems ok with Jari.
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post #8 of 27
1/17/08 at 2:04pm
Thread Starter 

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doug_H
Ijust different than the other guys upconversion technology

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post #9 of 27
1/17/08 at 9:40pm

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

I heard if you put a Mugen sticker on a PS3, the extra horsepower gives you better upconversion than that...

Perhaps this was a project well into development before this spring or indeed is just the name of their upconversion technology.

Doug just made me start thinking... It'll sure be boring when the HD wars are finally over and all we have to do all day is bash Bose.
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post #10 of 27
1/18/08 at 3:41am

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

SD is SD. Up conversion isn't going to add detail to the image that isn't there. This business of "looking almost as good as HD" is hogwash. The only thing up conversion can do is help a low resolution picture look a little smoother on a screen that has more than twice the number of scan lines. It can help the transitions from one color to another be a little cleaner. And it can help prevent noise from creeping into the signal. It will be the best that SD can look, but its still SD The only way to get HD resolution is to feed the HDTV and HD signal.

I have a VHS/DVD recorder, and guess what, it up converts VHS to 1080i, but it still look like VHS.

HDMI 1.3 can support "Deep Color". And you know what, it can! Unfortunately there is no home video format thus far that can send deep color through the HDMI cable. So even though the these companies advertise Deep Color on their HD players, its nonsense, HDTV doesn't now nor will it ever support deep color. There will have to be a new format for that.

Don't believe everything you read with these marketing gimmicks. Most of it is smoke and mirrors.

Doug
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post #11 of 27
1/18/08 at 5:26am

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clinton McClure
I heard if you put a Mugen sticker on a PS3, the extra horsepower gives you better upconversion than that...

Perhaps this was a project well into development before this spring or indeed is just the name of their upconversion technology.

Doug just made me start thinking... It'll sure be boring when the HD wars are finally over and all we have to do all day is bash Bose.

I put a test pipe and a tornado on my PS3. The extra noise ticks off the neighbors but the extra 5 pixels is worth it

Oh how I miss the days of Bose bashing.
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post #12 of 27
1/18/08 at 10:52am

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

Quote:
Oh how I miss the days of Bose bashing.
Wasn't that an Andy Williams song?

The days of maligning Boses
laugh and run away
like a child at play...


Cees
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post #13 of 27
1/18/08 at 12:44pm

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

Does Toshiba still use the term Colorstream (and Colorstream Pro, etc.) for component video? That was kinda confusing when they first did that. Everyone wondered if it was somehow ever so slightly better than standard component video.

_Man_
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post #14 of 27
1/18/08 at 1:07pm

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

I think they may still use Colorstream... it has been awhile since I was asked about colorstream compatibility with a component capable TV
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post #15 of 27
1/18/08 at 1:44pm

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

What exactly is Deep Color and why can it never be supported in the current iteration of HD?
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post #16 of 27
1/18/08 at 1:58pm

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clinton McClure
What exactly is Deep Color and why can it never be supported in the current iteration of HD?

If I understand correctly, Deep Color = 4:4:4 component (YCrCb) video while current HD formats continue to use 4:2:2 (like DVD), which is 1/2 resolution for the 2 color channels.

However, I wonder if future HDM titles can't actually use Deep Color above the current specs though. Do the existing specs actually make the option impossible? Of course, even if titles can be produced w/out breaking the specs, that doesn't mean existing players will output Deep Color (or even be able to play them at all). And of course, you'd also need HD displays that can handle Deep Color, if so.

_Man_
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post #17 of 27
1/18/08 at 4:26pm

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
If I understand correctly, Deep Color = 4:4:4 component (YCrCb) video while current HD formats continue to use 4:2:2 (like DVD), which is 1/2 resolution for the 2 color channels.

However, I wonder if future HDM titles can't actually use Deep Color above the current specs though. Do the existing specs actually make the option impossible? Of course, even if titles can be produced w/out breaking the specs, that doesn't mean existing players will output Deep Color (or even be able to play them at all). And of course, you'd also need HD displays that can handle Deep Color, if so.

_Man_

The problem isn't HDM, it's the actual HDTV specs that don't allow for deep color.

Doug
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post #18 of 27
1/18/08 at 5:27pm

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
The problem isn't HDM, it's the actual HDTV specs that don't allow for deep color.

Doug

Ah. So are you saying HDM does support Deep Color, but we just need actual HDTVs that support it also? If so, I can see the double-dips coming for HDM titles w/ Deep Color as soon as TV makers decide to add Deep Color support on top of the HDTV spec. Maybe at that point, BDs will be "Beyond, Beyond HD"...

_Man_
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post #19 of 27
1/18/08 at 10:08pm

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Man-Fai Wong
Ah. So are you saying HDM does support Deep Color, but we just need actual HDTVs that support it also? If so, I can see the double-dips coming for HDM titles w/ Deep Color as soon as TV makers decide to add Deep Color support on top of the HDTV spec. Maybe at that point, BDs will be "Beyond, Beyond HD"...

_Man_

Well a display format that supports Deep Color won't be HDTV, it might also support HDTV, but it will be something else all together. Kind of like how HDTV also supports NTSC.

Doug
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post #20 of 27
1/19/08 at 9:01pm

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
SD is SD. Up conversion isn't going to add detail to the image that isn't there. This business of "looking almost as good as HD" is hogwash. The only thing up conversion can do is help a low resolution picture look a little smoother on a screen that has more than twice the number of scan lines. It can help the transitions from one color to another be a little cleaner. And it can help prevent noise from creeping into the signal. It will be the best that SD can look, but its still SD The only way to get HD resolution is to feed the HDTV and HD signal.

While I do concede that no upconverted DVD will look as good as its' counterpart on HD-DVD and/or Blu-Ray some can look damn close to HD on the right player(such as the Reon equipped XA2). I've seen DVDs on the XA2 look as close to HD as possible so I don't quite buy the "hogwash" statement. Like I said, Blu-Ray and HD-DVD are obviously superior to standard DVD, but the XA2 does an amazing job making some DVDs look better than I ever thought possible.
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post #21 of 27
1/19/08 at 9:56pm

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

SD has 480 horizontal lines of resolution, HD has 1080. Thats more than twice the resolution. Upconversion doesn't magically add detail to the image where it doesn't exist.

When you see the picture in picture commentary on HD DVDs, the image size of the commentary picture is no accident, that accurately represents the SD frame in comparison to an HD frame. That is how much an SD image has to be enlarged to fill and HDTV screen.

Again all you have to do is look at the fine print in the title sequence of almost any film that is available in HD and SD to see the difference.

There are some excellent screen shots taken directly from SD and HD discs here.

Blu-ray, HD-DVD & SD DVD Comparison Screenshots *WARNING - LARGE PICTURE FILES* - Page 2 - AVS Forum

Of course they aren't moving, but the are full rez HD and upconverted SD of the same frame from various films. The difference is really rather startling. Also these are computer captures not screen shots taken with a digital camera.

Yes upconversion looks great. It's the best that SD will ever look, but to say that it looks close to HD is just not realistic.

Doug
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post #22 of 27
1/19/08 at 11:44pm

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce

Yes upconversion looks great. It's the best that SD will ever look, but to say that it looks close to HD is just not realistic.

Doug

Well, to be fair, I did say "some" DVDs upconverted can look "close" to HD and this was strictly on the XA2(the best upconverting player out there) so there are many differentiating factors in play. I think we're in total agreement that HD is ALWAYS going to look better than SD DVD, but I still think that "some" DVDs have an almost HD-like quality when upconverted on the XA2. Just my .02 on the subject.
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post #23 of 27
1/20/08 at 2:43am

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
SD has 480 horizontal lines of resolution, HD has 1080. Thats more than twice the resolution. Upconversion doesn't magically add detail to the image where it doesn't exist.
Actually the resolution of SD = 640x480 = 307200 compared to HD = 1920x1080 = 2073600. Which means the resolution of HD is 6.75 times that of SD. Absolutely no comparison and that's just in terms of resolution. I suppose the only time upconverted SD can look comparable to HD, is when it is viewed on a relatively small and a not so well calibirated display monitor.
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post #24 of 27
1/20/08 at 4:01am

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

The square root of 6.75 = 2.6.

But basically, that's all beside the point. Different algorithms uopconvert the 480 hlpf image to a 1080 hlpf image in different ways. Some are better suited for the eye than others. That's why (PR-wise) some could be called "super upconversion" indeed, while other algorithms can't.

And, yes, if you're sitting relatively far away from your screen, SD-upconverted could look almost the same as HD. But that isn't the same as "as good", because that way HD is not seen to its full potential.


Cees
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post #25 of 27
1/20/08 at 12:30pm

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanjay Gupta
Actually the resolution of SD = 640x480 = 307200 compared to HD = 1920x1080 = 2073600. Which means the resolution of HD is 6.75 times that of SD. Absolutely no comparison and that's just in terms of resolution. I suppose the only time upconverted SD can look comparable to HD, is when it is viewed on a relatively small and a not so well calibirated display monitor.

Actually the resolution of NTSC, or SD as it is formulated in the U.S. is 720x480. 640x480 is a computer monitor resolution as it unrelated to NTSC.

Doug
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post #26 of 27
1/21/08 at 1:16am

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Monce
Actually the resolution of NTSC, or SD as it is formulated in the U.S. is 720x480. 640x480 is a computer monitor resolution as it unrelated to NTSC.

Doug
You are right, but only applicable in the case of NTSC DVDs, the NTSC TV standard is actually 440 x 486.

Aspect H x W Pixels
VCD NTSC 4:3 352 x 240 84480
VCD PAL 4:3 352 x 288 101376
VHS NTSC 4:3 ¬320 x 480 ¬115200
Betamax NTSC 4:3 ¬320 x 480 ¬120000
VHS PAL/SECAM 4:3 ¬310 x 576 ¬138240
Betamax PAL 4:3 ¬310 x 576 ¬144000
NTSC TV 4:3 440 x 486 ¬129600
PAL/SECAM TV 4:3 ¬520 x 576 ¬201600
PALplus Undecoded 16:9 ¬520 x 432 ¬201600
PALplus 16:9 ¬520 x 576 ¬151200
SuperBeta NTSC 4:3 ¬380 x 480 ¬136800
SuperBeta PAL 4:3 ¬370 x 576 ¬164160
SVHS NTSC 4:3 ¬530 x 480 ¬192000
SVHS PAL/SECAM 4:3 ¬520 x 576 ¬230400
SVCD NTSC 4:3 480 x 480 230400
SVCD PAL 4:3 480 x 576 276480
Laser Disc NTSC 4:3 ¬580 x 480 ¬268800
Laser Disc PAL/SECAM 4:3 ¬570 x 576 ¬322560
D1 NTSC 4:3 720 x 480 345600
D1 PAL 4:3 720 x 576 414720
DVD NTSC 4:3 or 16:9Anamorphic 720 x 480 345600
DVD PAL 4:3 or 16:9Anamorphic 720 x 576 414720
NTSC 525/60 video 4:3 768 x 483 370944
PAL 625/50 video 4:3 768 x 576 442368
WXGA 16:9 1366 x 768 1049088
ATSC 720p HDTV 16:9 1280 x 720 921600
ATSC 1080p HDTV 16:9 1920 x 1080 2073600
European HDTV 16:9 2048 x 1152 2359296
~ = approx
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post #27 of 27
1/21/08 at 5:46am

Re: HD DVD´s "super upconversion"??

European HDTV = 2048 x 1152? I've never heard of such a standard which must exist on paper only, or was quickly abandoned. HD broadcasts in Europe adhere to the DVB standard which calls for the use of 720p or 1080i.
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