Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit - Page 2

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

Yes there is. You have half the data, you have flickering on pan shots of skyscrapers, etc.

There is a big difference between getting every other line and getting all the lines.

If your statement was correct, why do they even make 1080p stuff?

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

Regarding 1080i-> 1080p conversion:

with *film source material* you can get complete frame-reconstruction as long as the deinterlacer does the proper 3-2 pulldown reversal on the incoming 1080i60 feed.

The number of TVs that do this "3-2 pulldown" with 480i is pretty comprehensive. But the number of TVs that do it properly with 1080i is less common, though growing.

It's hardly a non-issue for anyone who's display does *not* do the proper pulldown, though I agree with the steady flow of newer and better HD displays that apply 3-2 pulldown reversal to film-based 1080i60 signals, it's a moot point.




As long as those unsuspecting consumers manage to place that disc in their DVD drawer right-side-up. I can imagine the calls to the customer service line now... consumers not realizing that one side of the disc won't play in their DVD machine.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

Agreed, which is why I qualified my statement by saying "If your TV correctly de-interlaces" the signal.


No, you still have the whole image. Your 1080p TV always displays a 1080p image regardless of what you feed it (of course if you feed it a 480 signal it has to create the additional lines). So if your TV correctly de-interlaces the 1080i signal it is putting all the lines back into 1080p before it displays them. Hence, no difference.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

Soooo true...but I have to believe that some kind of release agreement has been reached. I remember reading several months ago on the "Bits" that BRAVEHEART might be released on HD-DVD. Also, I think it was in this forum, someone alluding to a Spielberg title being released by Universal during this quarter.
Perhaps it's time for Fox to fire back with some grandiose new release title announcements. Anybody...anybody. SOMEBODY!!! Beyond stale title announcements, what else can we look forward to in 2008 in the way of new releases???

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

With this move Toshiba killed any chance of another manufacturer producing HD DVD players. Who would want to try and manufacture one when Toshiba is practically giving them away.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

Regarding this sale-price strategy of Toshiba:

my bet is that they got Paramount and Universal to hold off on going blu long enough to sell off some significant portion of their HD DVD hardware inventory. Once those two studios go blu the hardware will essentially be impossible to seel (except at DVD player prices).


Well, Toshiba's had that problem from the start. though this latest effort isn't about getting other players on board so much as clearing out inventory so they have less to write off for the accountants at the end of the year.



If the display doesn't do proper 3-2 pulldown, then the way it fills in the skipped lines in the 1080i signal is be repeating every line twice. This creates a slight blur-effect when the image is viewed side-by-side with the 1080p native image, and it called "bobbing". It was a cheap way out (basically it's "fake" deinterlacing if you will) that almost all manufacturers used to use with deinterlacing 1080i signals. Thankfully, more and more displays are doing it correctly to provide the full resolution fidelity of the 1080p original when they do 3-2 pulldown reversal. But if they don't, the vertical resolution of the image is noticably softened in comparison.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

like DVD? (I just couldn't resist).

I think Toshiba talking about the upconversion is their way of keeping their product at retail, and trying to get people who aren't ready to step up to HD yet to get their player and use it with their current DVDs. Considering their lack of options it's a decent strategy. I don't believe these prices were planned before WB, and I don't think it's a fire sale to clear out their wharehouse before they kill the format. It's their way of starting to fight back.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

In a 1080i signal, the player will send only half of the lines for a frame (odd or even) Then on the next frame, it sends the other. If the images changes between then, you get artifacts. 1080p players send both the odd and the even at the same time so this is not an issue. This is why watching sports on 720p is better than 1080i.

If 1080i was as good as 1080p then why do they even bother with 1080p?

There is 2x the information ion a 1080p signal. And I am pretty sure the blu-ray and hd-dvd discs are mastered at 1080p. So if your player is only sending odd, then even it takes twice as long to get he full frame. This shows up when watching images with high speed changes.

I am really confused how the same crowd that is worried about lossless audio does not seem to think there are benefits from 1080p outputs.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

Ugh. I give up. I'm sure someone else can explain it better than I.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

In real time signals, like TV broadcasts, that could be true. If the image elements are the two halves of a scanned film frame, it isn't.


Cees

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

ok, I guess that makes a little sense. But then why bother with 1080p?

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

I think, Scott, probably more for marketing. But, beyond that, if the player outputs 1080p then you don't have to worry if your TV de-interlaces the signal properly or not.

On the same note, this basically means spending extra for an upconverting standard DVD player if you have a proper 1080p display is probably a waste of money. You can either buy a DVD player that does the upconversion, or let the TV do it.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

Market hype.

Interlacing was invented in the 20s or 30s of the previous century, to avoid flicker on TV broadcasts. Interlaced images were better than non-interlaced (of course), but when image memory and later LCD and Plasma screens came into existence, there was no need for it.
In Europe we've had 100Hz CRT screens since the eighties, so the whole issue isn't considered very interesting here anyway. It's "played" mainly elsewhere.


Cees


Edit: Sorry, Bryan. We said the same in parallel!
C.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter U

I wish Toshiba and there HD-DVD format actually tried to market properly to places other than the US. I would love to buy a HD-DVD player for the prices in the US at the moment but HD-DVD are still expensive over in Europe (and Blu-Ray is even more dominant than in the US)

Focusing on US primarily has meant Blu-Ray elsewhere is pretty much sealed the deal...

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

Scott, you are confusing fields with frames.

Interlace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Field (video - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Deinterlacing - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter U

There is no sale pricing strategy. Toshiba's old msrp prices are no longer viable with the loss of warner. Its either cut prices or have players glued to retail shelves and they're effectively dead.

The market determines pricing. Good luck attempting to move a 1080i hd dvd player with two studio movie support that could disappear at any time at the old msrps. How much would you pay for such a product?

I might've bought an hd dvd player standalone to replace my 360 add on for $199 canadian prior to the warner announcement. I won't now. The price will have to drop some more before I consider it.

I think its far more likely that paramount and universal both told toshiba, do something or else. The only option for them was to cut prices.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

I stopped reading at "Mass Market Acceptance".

I almost choked on my schnitzel, I was laughing so hard.

Do you think they believe it?

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

Hmmmmmmm...not as simple as all that. My opinion is that Toshiba's apparent WEAKNESS is really its STRENGTH!!! Because Toshiba has a monopoly (almost) and tremendous sales volume, they can lower their prices at will...and boy, have they got a lot of will.

Conversely, Blu-ray's apparent STRENGTH is really its WEAKNESS. A format dominated, and I mean DOMINATED by the PS3...great for games but as a serious choice for Walmart type electronic shoppers----NOT ON YOUR LIFE!!!

Added to this fact is another one - except for Sony, and to some extent Samsung, the other Blu-ray manufacturers, well...lets be kind and just say their hardly a blip on the radar. Not much incentive or sales volume to lower prices there, I'm afraid.

Now if Universal and Paramount can do their part and Toshiba can team up with Walmart and do some of those Black Friday thingies in the next few weeks...this could amount to a marriage made in heaven for HD DVD shoppers as well as Blu-ray shoppers...might get more of those BOGOs as competition heats up again.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

It's nice that we look at the strategy but in the end the consumer gets screwed again. Who do you think is going to buy the HD-player? Someone that knows what is happening like you. Are you going to run out and buy one or wait for Paramount and Universal to release Blu-Ray?

Great we talk about not taking sides, but what about being informed? Best Buy does't have any disclaimer out there. Thanks for buying a CHEAP player but you only get these movies, and consolation is you get to upconvert your DVDs. Even if that was not the reason for buying the player.

Best thing for the consumer if for the Retail outlests to end HD-DVD and kill it now. Get to one format. If blu-ray is the winner don't expect your online content to be around from HD-DVD. Greed is all it is.

If HD-DVD won I be on the otherside, but it didn't happen so face facts and pick a fomat. If Divx had there way during DVD versus Divx we be paying for pay per view and throwing the sell distructing discs away.

Hopefully you tell your friends what they ae getting a cheap player with a very shady future and little content. I would recommend not wasting your money!

One last thing. My Walmart has the HD-DVD behind the salesfloor. I was told they are there only for a special promotion and if you want one you have to ask. Way to go Wally world sell those cheap machines and build customer loyalty........ Bet your customers don't return again.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

Sorry you get one more tonight from me. It is a crime that the CNET coverage of Warner switching is omitted from the Best Buy Website. Come on. Either report all the news or put a disclaimer that the reports were selected based upon what will sell more of what we have in stock.

I think my rewards card might be switching to another store! I look at the ethics of stores where I shop. It's getting hard to find a place.

Before you go to exclusivity. Both sides starte there so there were no companies looking out for the consumer. HD-DVD just couldn't pay enough, which is what it's weakness was.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

I think Toshiba's new marketing strategy is pretty smart. Selling HD-DVD players as upconverting DVD players with the added bonus of being able to play whatever HD-DVDs are out there seems pretty logical to me. Now that HD-DVD player prices have dropped even further they'll probably move quite a few more units.

I'm going to preface my next comments by saying that I currently do not own either a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD player... yet. I do have an HD ready TV so I have been watching the "format war" with great interest. I find it interesting that so many people are so quick to call Blu Ray the winner since Warner's announcement about dropping HD-DVD support. It seems to me that HD-DVD going away will make Blu Ray more likely to succeed but that is no guarantee. I can't help but think back to other format wars of the recent past and wonder if either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD will be successful. A few short years ago DVD-A and SACD were battling each other to be the replacement for the CD. Now I really don't see or hear much of anything about either one. Even further back MiniDisc and Digital Compact Cassette were competing to be the next big home recording medium. Both of those formats are pretty much just fading memories now.

Anyway... I can't help but wonder if either Blu-Ray or HD-DVD will ever replace the lowly DVD. I'm still tempted to buy into HD-DVD to play around with now that I can get a player for $129 and then get a Blu Ray player once the profile 2.0 players hit the market. Decisions... desisions...

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter U

This is exactly what I've been telling all my friends for the past year about Blu-ray, now I recommend to them not to buy any Hi-Def players at all.

I don't see how could an honest and "informed" person ever recommend to a friend to buy an expensive stand along Blu player now, when all this players are already out dated and will be replaced in the coming months. (with even more expensive models)

Not to mention that most likely all the Blu media available out there today will be re-issue later again (requiring double–dipping for many current Blu-ray fans) with the extra features and Blu-Live content that should’ve been included on the discs in the first place.( like HD-DVD is offering now).

Thumbs up to Toshiba for not capitulating, and good luck to Sony and the Blu-Studios, (and all HDM fans out there) because the best and possibly the only chance for a Hi-Def DVD format to reach the masses will die once the affordable HD-DVD is gone forever.



IMO, Sony's Blu will follow in the foot steps of SACD.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter U

You forget that whichever format "wins" has only won the right to compete against DVD. DVD is incredibly affordable, and if the more expensive format wins the hi-def war now it still has to remain competitive price-wise against DVD.

DVD had no competition and player prices dropped over time, and I fully expect Blu-ray player prices to drop over time in the same way, in order to ensure mass market acceptance.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter U

You seem to forget that whole VHS debacle that lasted for nearly 20 years. DVD had competition, just not competition from a shiny disk. Once VHS machine prices started to drop, so did DVD players.

I didn't consider DVD as competition with Blu (or HD DVD) but I guess once we have a single format, that will be the next battle and that may actually force Blu to lower their player prices. Currently though, Bluy ray prices are extortionate.



I so agree with this comment.

Dave

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter U

once a stand alone blu player reaches the magic $99 or below mark, mass market acceptance will ensue.

$49 DVD players will no longer be competition.

Give it a year or 2. DVD players didn't hit $99 for a few years and neither will Blu players.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

Am I the only one questioning why an HD hardware discussion is posted (and thriving) in HD software? I'm also amazed (but not surprised) that people are format bashing again. Now, let me get down off that soapbox...

If Toshiba doesn't slash their prices, they'll have a lot of inventory on their hands. Not that the war is definitively over, but the retail community isn't necessarily going to continue to invest in a format with limited studio support, and would rather devote shelf space to a definitive winner, in both hardware and software. Retailers will be looking for compensation for returned players and on rebates handed out based on price reductions. If Toshiba were digging in their heels for a real fight, they would be preparing to introduce new models, bringing in more brand-name manufacturers, or possibly trying to negotiate dual format players in order to keep generating revenue for their technology (which I'm sure they already get for standard DVD players).

Trying to court studios back to HD will not happen without a very deep set of pockets, and even then I'm sure BR exclusive studios are not going to do this without winding up with a major lack of credibilty when it eventually comes time to become part of the next big thing in a physical content delivery format.

As good as these formats are, we are still at this point where we're dealing with niche market pentration that, on the hardware front, is on par with or lower than laserdisc (although better promoted).


Remember when first generation DVD players were $800 plus, and the software looked like crap on them?

Players dropping in price will not necessarily mean an immediate investment in 1080i television or 7.1 home theater purchases either. HD and BR players with composite/S-Video and analog stereo output will look and sound the same as a SD DVD or cable on a 480p television. Television moving to total Hi-Def in 2009 will not force the average consumer to upgrade either.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

Sour grapes must taste interesting.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

Just like DVD never made it to the masses because of its high prices year-two as well. Pity.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

Today, consumers are spoiled by the low prices compared to what happened ten years ago. Furthermore, the economy was doing better and people were really spending money back then.

Re: Toshiba Deploys New HD DVD Marketing Initiatives Based on Strong Fourth Quarter Unit

Then why did the $299 BD players outsell Toshiba's low-cost HD DVD players over Christmas?

BD player prices will steadily fall. For folks to continue to suggest that BD player prices will forever be higher-cost is a willful desire to not acknowlege what's not only been been plainly stated by the BDA and the manufacturers themselves, but also is consistent with the CE industry: to amortize their profits over the first few years of the product's life cycle so that can recover their R&D costs before player prices, of course, fall to commodity levels.

Every other product in history as gone through this same cycle except for HD DVD, which Toshiba saw fit to price below profit in order to gain an early foothold with the market, despite the lack of long-term viability with that pricing model (hence so few other manuacturers producing HD DVD gear).