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08: Home Theater Project Beginning

post #1 of 53
1/9/08 at 8:09pm
Thread Starter 
Hello all I am new to the site and am about to embark on a home theater steup in my basement. It it currently framed but unfinished(insulation, drywall, etc) I have a crappy diagram(paint) showing my dimensions(not to scale) and what my ideas are for the area, also have a few pictures showing what I have to work with. Please feel free to give me any suggestions/ideas/critiques. It is being planned for a dedicated HT with the possibility of using it for TV, Games and PC use.

Plan for:
Mitsibishi HC4900 projector
DIY 100" painted screen
Onkyo 605 or 805 receiver
PS3 for Blu-ray
Monster Cable 14 gauge speaker wire

PossiblyIf I want to use it for daily use)
XBOX 360
HD DVR Direct TV Receiver
PC Use

Unsure about
speakers at this point. Looking for a good powerd sub speakers to start with.
Seating(platform or just a nice big couch)

I was going to post the pics but I do not have 10 post yet so go to
Big_Daddy351/Basement Theater - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting
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post #2 of 53
1/10/08 at 5:52am

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

It is kind of difficult to view your link when your photo album is set to private.

Monster cable - Don't use it. It's just wire. You can get 14ga wire from Home Depot or Lowes for 1/3 or less and it will work just as good. Same with interconnects. Dayon from Parts Express, Blue Jeans or Monoprice are all good sources.

Sub depends on room size and movie preference. A large room plus action movies at reference levels require a big sub. Find out how much space you are willing to give up and we can work from there. If you are doing this basement project yourself, then you should have the tools and woodworking knowledge to build a sub. We can help with the details.

-Robert
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post #3 of 53
1/10/08 at 6:16am
Thread Starter 

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

Sorry about the link the album is now public.

And after I posted the post last night I was reading some more about speaker wire and changed my mind about the monster cable. I will be going to Lowes/Home Depot to get the wire.

There will be a good bit of action movies being played on the screen(The first screenings will be Star Wars if that helps). As for the reference to woodworking are you talking about just the building of the actual box?(ie get the measurements and cutting the wood or what) I have helped build quite a few decks/fences. Done drywalling, framed some walls stuff like that. I was thinking about buying a powered sub for the time being. This is our first house and I dont plan on going with a seperate amp and processor in this house.

The crappy paint diagram in my album, the measurement in the bottom left is suppose to read 3'4" instear of 3'1"

Thanks for the reply. This site is pretty awesome. I just found it 2 days ago.
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post #4 of 53
1/10/08 at 6:39am
Thread Starter 

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

Got a list of cables/Connectors/ Wallplates.

Cables
3' HDMI (projector to wall plate)
3' Component (projector to wall plate)
30' HDMI(wall plate to receiver)
25-50' Component(wall plate to receiver)
(Could possibly just run straight from Projector to Receiver/ Wall plate in Component room)
25' DVI-SVGA(Projector to PC)
25-75' RCA(to sub/s)
100' CAT6 to run PC
250' 14ga Speaker WIre

Wallplates
HDMI (Above Projector?)
Component(Above Projector?)
7.1 or 7.2 (Component room)
RCA(for subs and Component room)

Remote extender
RCA couplers


I'm sure there is more I am missing so feel free to point it out. I did not list the power wire.
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post #5 of 53
1/10/08 at 10:46am

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

Check out SVS subs for your HT. They are considered to be very high on the value for your money scale here on the forum and will outperform the subs you will find at the brick and mortar stores for the same money. The SVS website is SVSound - Home. Give them a call and tell them your room dimensions and they can suggest the sub that is right for your room and budget.
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post #6 of 53
1/10/08 at 11:20am

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

It sounds like you are handy with tools. Give DIY subs a try. For example, here are some different plans:
Rythmik Audio ported DS15
CSS SD12 ported and sealed

But most of the time people come up with their own design and post their plans like this. You can easily blow away a retail sub with a properly built DIY model. Check out JJ's thread where I helped him with his IB sub.

-Robert
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post #7 of 53
1/11/08 at 9:18am
Thread Starter 

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

Was wondering if this Infinite Baffle Subwoofer Was a decent setup for a sub. There is a space under the steps that I have no plans for. Which would be to the left rear of the seating are. Right in front of the component room.
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post #8 of 53
1/11/08 at 12:16pm

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

That's a great IB sub design. You seem to have a perfect location for it as well. The only thing I would do is use a different driver. Fi Car Audio makes two different IB drivers. I would use a pair of the 18" models connected to an amp capable of 500w to 700w @ 4 ohms.

Read this for a build and review. Post #9 has finished pics and a review.

-Robert
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post #9 of 53
1/11/08 at 12:46pm
Thread Starter 

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

For IB sub, it replaces a traditional sub right(sorry newb). Also would I just run the sub wire out of the reciever into an amp and out to the IB? New to all of this and wanting to make sure I have all the wiring in place before drywall goes up.
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post #10 of 53
1/11/08 at 2:22pm

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

An IB sub is really just a sealed sub where the enclosure is extremely large. An entire room in fact. Yes, it replaces a regular sub.

You would run the LFE cable from your receiver to your amp. Then speaker wire from the amp the the subs. The subs I linked to are single voice coil 2 ohm models so they would need to be wired in series to give a 4 ohm load to a mono amp. There are also stereo amps that can easily drive those subs. Guitar Center has the Behringer EP-2500 on sale for $249. It's way more amp that you need but it will allow you to upgrade the sub without upgrading the amp. In fact, that amp could easily drive 8 of those subs in an IB.

-Robert
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post #11 of 53
1/13/08 at 10:20am
Thread Starter 

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

What about the SVS subs? Mainly the PCi series(low end) The 20-39 or 16-46 PCi SVS subs. Woule either of those be good enough for a 15-22 viewing area?
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post #12 of 53
1/13/08 at 3:33pm

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

I don't know about your listening habits or goals. But an SVS will satisfy most people with a room that size as long as it is sealed off from the rest of the house. I'm not most. I want my sound system to scare small children when it needs to.

-Robert
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post #13 of 53
1/13/08 at 7:25pm
Thread Starter 

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

Yeah I like to scare small children as well( my 2 being the main subjects). The subs you posted would they work well in a traditional sub enclosure? versus a IB design, the wife is not too keen on me cutting a hole in the wall. Espically if I want a new sub up stairs. Until I can finish the basement theater. Will take longer than expected. Going to start getting equipment together(receiver, speakers, sub-DIY or Purchased, Blu-ray player, etc) Looking at building a sub and since I was looking at SVS I could probably spring $600 for a DIY sub. Recomendations?
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post #14 of 53
1/14/08 at 5:02am

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

Chuck,
I am running 2 - 15" subs in an IB setup and I played the explosion scene from National Treasure at 1AM when we first got the system up and running. Well before I knew it my wife was down stairs telling me that I woke her and our daughter up because their beds were shaking! Mental note: Have the amp turned down a smidge at night!

The IB subs are definitely impressive. At some point in time I might upgrade to 18" subs, but that will probably be awhile before that happens.

Cheers,
JJ
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post #15 of 53
1/14/08 at 5:58am
Thread Starter 

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJMJ71
Chuck,
I am running 2 - 15" subs in an IB setup and I played the explosion scene from National Treasure at 1AM when we first got the system up and running. Well before I knew it my wife was down stairs telling me that I woke her and our daughter up because their beds were shaking! Mental note: Have the amp turned down a smidge at night!

The IB subs are definitely impressive. At some point in time I might upgrade to 18" subs, but that will probably be awhile before that happens.

Cheers,
JJ

Does 5-600 sound feasible for a DIY IB, or traditional sub setup including amp?
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post #16 of 53
1/14/08 at 5:59am

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

Quote:
Originally Posted by God_Speed351
Looking at building a sub and since I was looking at SVS I could probably spring $600 for a DIY sub. Recomendations?
How much space can you give up? Both floor space and vertical. You can "clone" an SVS cylinder sub with a 12" driver. For a little more you can make it a little taller and use a larger diameter cylinder and put in a 15" or 18" driver. Or you can go with a traditional box sub. Either way, you are on the right track with a good budget. Answer the next questions and we will go from there.

-Robert
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post #17 of 53
1/14/08 at 6:22am
Thread Starter 

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert_J
How much space can you give up? Both floor space and vertical. You can "clone" an SVS cylinder sub with a 12" driver. For a little more you can make it a little taller and use a larger diameter cylinder and put in a 15" or 18" driver. Or you can go with a traditional box sub. Either way, you are on the right track with a good budget. Answer the next questions and we will go from there.

-Robert

I will do some measuring when I get home.(basement and upstairs) I am wanting to build a sub for the basement but one I can use upstairs until I get finished with the basement(if thats possible) If not I want to go ahead and build a nice sub for upstairs(traditional) to get a feel for building a sub and then when I get to do the basement(IB would be more likely in the basement) I can go from there.

Can I get some opinions on which setup(Traditional vs IB) is better suited for a DIY and action movies. I read a quote where someone said that watching Transformers was a "Test in Brutality"(something like that). I want something similiar to that. I currently have a HT in a Box(had for 3 years) I think it is time to upgrade big time, within a budget.

I would rather the project(Theater) take longer and get done correctly than trying to rush through the process and mess something up or wish I had taken the time to install everything the way I would want it.
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post #18 of 53
1/14/08 at 7:29am

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

I think that I paid right around $600 for all my equipment. That was 2 -15" subs for $125 a piece, a Behringer EP-2500 amp for around $250, and a Behringer Feedback Destroyer for around $60. You don't need the Feedback destroyer right away, that is when you start to really worry about dialing it in.

Sounds like a conventional type sub would be good for upstairs. I am thinking that you are not going to want to patch a hole in the wall for an IB when it is time to move it downstairs. If you are wanting disturbingly deep bass for movies (and yes it is great for action movies) then go with a IB setup for your HT.

Robert will guide you with what you need, he is definitely a SUB enthusiast!!!

Cheers,
JJ
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post #19 of 53
1/14/08 at 8:58am
Thread Starter 

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJMJ71
I think that I paid right around $600 for all my equipment. That was 2 -15" subs for $125 a piece, a Behringer EP-2500 amp for around $250, and a Behringer Feedback Destroyer for around $60. You don't need the Feedback destroyer right away, that is when you start to really worry about dialing it in.

Sounds like a conventional type sub would be good for upstairs. I am thinking that you are not going to want to patch a hole in the wall for an IB when it is time to move it downstairs. If you are wanting disturbingly deep bass for movies (and yes it is great for action movies) then go with a IB setup for your HT.

Robert will guide you with what you need, he is definitely a SUB enthusiast!!!

Cheers,
JJ

I can always leave it upstairs for the kids movies. But seriously if it is a better option than a traditional sub(for deep bass) Then I will seriously consider the design. I could mount it in the attic above the TV and put a cover on it and it will "almost" disappear into the celing. But seriously my wife is soo aganist me cutting a hole in a perfectly good wall/celing. So a traditional sub would probably work better upstairs.
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post #20 of 53
1/14/08 at 9:27am

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

Quote:
Originally Posted by God_Speed351
I can always leave it upstairs for the kids movies. But seriously if it is a better option than a traditional sub(for deep bass) Then I will seriously consider the design. I could mount it in the attic above the TV and put a cover on it and it will "almost" disappear into the celing. But seriously my wife is soo aganist me cutting a hole in a perfectly good wall/celing. So a traditional sub would probably work better upstairs.

The WAF is something that always has to be considered!

You mentioned mounting an IB in the attic here is a link to a forum that is dedicated to IB sub setups. They have a great FAQs section and is recommended reading if you are going to consider building one. Check out their gallery of pictures of different setups. I believe that you will have to sign up to gain access to the forum. IB sub forum link

Cheers,
JJ
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post #21 of 53
1/14/08 at 9:54am
Thread Starter 

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

Yeah I have been looking around their site for a few days. Thanks anyway though.
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post #22 of 53
1/14/08 at 10:02am

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

An IB is really just a very large, sealed box. So large that the enclosure has no effect on the performance of the driver. No coloration of sound (good) and no air acting as suspension (sometimes bad). They will easily play down into the single digits. To get a conventional sub to do that it would have to be the size of a refrigerator. And yes, there are guys building them this size.

The only downsize to an IB is output. Since there is nothing stopping it from playing so low, we can only power it based on single digit extension. For example, a ported enclosure tuned to 20hz can play at 110db. The ported sub has a filter at 20hz to keep from playing anything below that. Because an IB can play down to 10hz, we have to look at driver excursion. If a conventional sub moved 10mm at 20hz when driven by 200w, it will move 40mm at 10hz. It takes 4 times the excursion to play the same level one octave lower. Can you find subs with 40mm of excursion? Yes. There's a nice 18" model from resonant engineering that costs $1,300. To make up for the lower output, we use multiple drivers. Basically, the more cone area you have the less you have to push your subs to reach your desired levels. The less excursion the less distortion you have. Basically, you can't have enough cone area.

Like JJ's install, a manifold will with opposing drivers will cancel out mechanical vibrations. When testing my 18's, I can't hold them still when pushing less than 100w to them. It's like holding a jackhammer. That's why you will see most IB's with an even number of drivers.

Fi Car Audio has 15" and 18" drivers designed for home IB use. They aren't on the web site so you have to e-mail Scott for details. I may have linked to the Home Theater Shack thread about them. Besides Fi, AE Speakers has 15" drivers. Parts Express has the Dayton line with 12" and 15" IB drivers. They were nice when they were first introduced but now there are much better drivers out.

-Robert
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post #23 of 53
1/14/08 at 11:48am
Thread Starter 

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

You did link the Fi drivers and thank you. I guess I need to do some persuading the the wife on how much better it would sound/feel with an IB and opposed to a traditional. Plus I could free up some floor space
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post #24 of 53
1/14/08 at 12:59pm

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

Freeing up floor space and getting rid of a huge, ugly box has WAF written all over it. And patching drywall takes less than an hour of work time.

-Robert
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post #25 of 53
1/14/08 at 1:11pm
Thread Starter 

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

Yeah,. I'll let everyone know how tonights "negotatiions" go.
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post #26 of 53
1/15/08 at 6:02am
Thread Starter 

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

Well the "negotiations" went ok. I think I almost have her convinced that it would be a better option to have a IB than a traditional sub sitting in the floor. I am posting a pic of out living room(just ignore the clutter). The wall behind the tv is a shared wall between the living room and a oversized 2 car garage. Now my question is would I be able to mount an IB sub on this wall?

On either side of the TV. It is also an option to turn the shelves with the books and DVD's so that they sit facing the TV so I could mount an IB in the corner to the far right. If I do the IB then the small pioneer sub and PC will be removed from the area to the right side of the tv. The small corner shelf beside the PC is also on its way out. It kinda just got stuck there, and had some flowers put on top of it.

Get two of the FIiCarAudio 15's or 18's and the amp from Guitar center That will put the price around $507(15's) to $667(18's) Plus materials for the enclosure.
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post #27 of 53
1/15/08 at 9:56am

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

If there is a garage behind that wall, then you can install an IB. Check out Cult of the Infinitely Baffled for dozens of different manifold designs. And I'd go with the 18's over the 15's any day.

-Robert
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post #28 of 53
1/15/08 at 1:37pm
Thread Starter 

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

I have a thread over at Cult of the IB about my IB setup. I have been looking at these speakers to go with the Onkyo 705 or 805 receiver http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=...eater Products I know it comes with a powered sub but I could always put an IB in the front and run the traditional sub behind the couch.
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post #29 of 53
1/16/08 at 5:57am

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

The powered sub in that setup would only add distortion to your IB. I wouldn't use it. In fact, I wouldn't buy a package set like that. You are stepping into world class bass but going cheap on the speakers. Upgrade in stages and get quality speakers. AV123, SVS and Elemental designs all have nice speakers that you could use as your front 3.

-Robert
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post #30 of 53
1/16/08 at 6:47am

Re: 08: Home Theater Project Beginning

Chuck,
How much are you willing to spend on speakers for the HT room? Do you have an idea of a brand of speakers that you would like to have at some point in time if you were to upgrade? If so and the budget is minimal I would at least invest some money on a good center channel and mains at Robert mentioned. If you do not have that much then at least get a good center channel since the center is one of the most used speakers out of the 5.1 system. Then you can eventually buy mains and then the surrounds. Then you could eventually use the onkyo speakers for the room upstairs.

Cheers,
JJ
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