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post #241 of 262
1/18/08 at 9:26pm

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Demise
Herein lies one of my greatest caveats for HDM in general. I simply don't believe it will be profitable for the studios to go deep into their catalogs for many years, if ever. Since many of the films at the top of my want list were made pre-1960, this is a major deterrent for investing in Blu-ray. Much of my motivation for getting HD DVD was the fact that it had "Casablanca", "Adventures of Robin Hood", and "Forbidden Planet". My understanding is that those discs have not sold well. I doubt, because of the PS3 demographic that dominates Blu-ray sales, that they would do much better on Blu.

I don't expect a peace offering. I'm a consumer and the BDA is going to have to make it worth my while to invest in their format. Warner certainly has the catalog to do it, but I'd be very surprised if we see much classic cinema from them anytime soon. "Spider-man 3", "POTC: At World's End", or "Superbad" just don't do much for me. Michael Bay probably is a perfect spokesperson for Blu-ray, which means I'm just not the audience it's aimed at. So my disposable income will go elsewhere.
Classic titles haven't sold well because of a number of reasons that has nothing to do with the PS3 demographic dominating Blu-ray sales so let's cease with the generalizations for a minute and talk about specifics as to why few classic films are few and far between on HDM. First off, there is a misconception that HDM won't be beneficial to classic films especially black and white films, movies lacking multi-channel audio and films in academy ratio. I can't tell you how many people believe that misconception which probably affects the low sales number for classic films on HDM for both formats not just Blu-ray. Secondly, the market penetration is just not there yet to support greater sales of classic films on HDM. Using this forum as an example, too many classic film buffs on HTF want the studios to release classic films onto HDM, but yet won't buy the players and the current classic software released on HDM. If that doesn't happen then what is going to tell the studios that there is a market for classic films on HDM. If you want the studios to release such films onto HDM then they have to be encourage to release more by buying enough of the classic films already released on HDM to get the studios to take notice that there is a market. It's really a catch-22 situation.
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post #242 of 262
1/18/08 at 9:28pm

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S
Well, I'm getting tired of the generalized statements about PS3 owners and the constant allusions that their taste in movies is juvenile. I own one of these machines and, no, I don't own SPIDERMAN 3; however, I do own CASABLANCA, FORBIDDEN PLANET, and ADVENTURES OF ROBIN HOOD.

What my beliefs about the tastes of PS3 owners are is really of no importance. I would ask you, however, if you think the studios do demographic studies of that group in order to determine which films would be most profitable to release? Demographics, whether you like it or loathe it, is based on generalization. My best guess would be that you're more the exception than the rule as far as PS3 owners go. If I'm wrong and scores of classic titles show up on Blu-ray in the near future, I'll happily (believe me) acknowledge it. Not to mention buying a Blu-ray player and taking full advantage of the situation.
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post #243 of 262
1/18/08 at 10:12pm

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

Those classic films on HD DVD probably sold about as well as they did on SD relative to the size of the market.

Doug
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post #244 of 262
1/18/08 at 10:32pm

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

I thought we wen't having these types of discussions here, but since we are, here's my take. It bothers me that so many of us are ready to accept Blu Ray as the savior of the day. To me, both Toshiba and the BDA should be ashamed of their actions concerning the handling of HDM. They both acted only to serve their own interests while attempting to monopolize a market. Neither appears to have really thought about what was best for us, the people who buy their stuff and thus pay their bills.

I tried both formats and was equally impressed. In the end, however, I went back to my standard DVD units for a couple of reasons.

1) I have over 400 DVD's which I have no intention of replacing. My Pioneer DVF-727's do a great job of playing these and I have no desire to step down to a single disc unit. Had Toshiba and the BDA co-operated and produced a common format, I might be able to upgrade to HDM megachangers by now.

2) My projector converts any compatable signal to 720P. I saw the difference with a native 720P signal, but my wife didn't, and this already makes either format a hard sell. Add to that the [argueably] planned obsolescence and the need to replace my entire collection to fully enjoy the benefits and you have a DOA format.

I'm not Joe 6 pack. I am an enthusiast, and I can afford any player I want. But I still demand real and sustainable value for my money. So yes, until I see this, I would prefer that both formats fail. It's what they deserve for delivering sub-standard solutions to the marketplace.

John
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post #245 of 262
1/18/08 at 10:41pm

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

There was another event that coincided with the advent of DVD and I believe that event contributed to an unusually rapid switch to DVD. That event was the dot.com explosion. DVDs were used as massive loss leaders by on-line retailers. The on-line DVD giveaways, from what I understand, were legendary. Collectors were able to rapidly amass rather large collections for a comparatively small outlay. Marginal films moved nearly as rapidly as good ones, not because people necessarily liked them, but due to the fact that many of them were acquired virtually for free. The movement of so many discs had to have had some influence on the studios deciding to heavily support DVD. DVD might have had a much slower uptake if the on-line giveaways hadn't occurred.

I wasn't involved with DVD right at the beginning, but from what I remember when I did get involved there were not a lot of classics being released at the very start of the format. The beginning of DVD seemed to be similar to what is occurring in HDM right now; a lot of new releases intermingled with more marginal titles that were not strong box office successes. In fact, one of the larger issues discussed on this forum was the glacially slow release pattern of classic films during the early years of DVD. Please correct me if I am remembering this wrong.

The studios always seem to use the launch of a new format as a method to try to recoup money from box office failures. They think that early adopters will be willing to pick up any kind of crap just in order to have something to watch on their new machines. With DVD, that may have been true, but only because so many marginal films were acquired through giveaways.

This time around it is different. The on-line retail environment is completely different. Giveaways are few and far between. Collectors have to spend much greater amounts of money to amass collections, so marginal titles, of which HDM has plenty, are sitting on the shelf unsold.

The install base for HD players has to grow tremendously before it becomes economically viable to release classic films. Like it or not, for the foreseeable future, new releases are going to be the prime driver of HDM sales. In fact, looking back at DVD, I think that most classic films were probably relatively poor sales performers. It is just that the massive sales of new films allowed the studios to subsidize less lucrative releases like those of classic films.

If people want to see more classics on HDM then more people have to be willing to support HDM by buying in. Then they have to show the studios that it is worth releasing classics on HD, by actually purchasing the ones that have been released to date.
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post #246 of 262
1/18/08 at 10:57pm

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Casablanca and Robin Hood sold fairly well for for "older" catalog titles. Keep in mind that Casablanca was available via the 5 free offer, and I don't know how many people took that as a choice (like I did). They both outsold newer catalog like Excaliber and Road Warrier, and all the other titles I mention below. Viva Las Vegas, Jailhouse Rock, Cowboys and Forbidden Planet all sold a small quantity. Rio Bravo, Viva Las Vegas, Jailhouse Rock sold about the same on both formats, BD just edged out HD DVD on Cowboys and Wild Bunch, HD DVD had over twice the number of copies sold for Dirty Dozen and Searchers. That's Entertainment hasn't been out for long, but the numbers don't look good so far.

Note: I have no idea what the expectations were for any of these titles. When I say something didn't sell well I'm looking at the number of sales; WB might actually be pleased as it may have beaten their sales estimates for all I know.
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post #247 of 262
1/18/08 at 10:59pm

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

I think the dominant release list of action, sci-fi, horror, and fantasy films in HDM does cater to adolescent male, who is, in fact, probably more likely to have a PS3. There are really very few titles in either HD or BD I want to buy at this point. I have absolutely no interest in games. I am 55 years old and have standalone players for both HDM formats, but am becoming less and less enchanted with the medium. I started out with HD and have picked up most of the titles I want. I did pick up the BD Harry Potter Phoenix to test my BD player, but it's the only one I have. Older movies in general don't "show off" hi-def like some more modern, loud, multi-channel audio, 100 scene-cuts-a-minute film. I am more inclined these days to just pick up SD DVDs I want and watch them upconverted on my XA2. I am not excited about getting "American Gangster" or "The Invasion." What I am looking forward to is in March, getting "Taras Bulba" and "Solomon and Sheba"...which are in SD. There is very little variety of films in HDM unless you want to see the stuff I mentioned at the beginning. I think the studios better release some classics, whether they sell many or not, just get get a more widespread demographic involved in this thing, or it's going to go down the drain. How long has this talk about "Lawrence of Arabia" being released been going on? Release it, for god's sake, not another stupid SAW movie!
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post #248 of 262
1/18/08 at 11:00pm

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Quote:
There was another event that coincided with the advent of DVD and I believe that event contributed to an unusually rapid switch to DVD. That event was the dot.com explosion. DVDs were used as massive loss leaders by on-line retailers. The on-line DVD giveaways, from what I understand, were legendary. Collectors were able to rapidly amass rather large collections for a comparatively small outlay. Marginal films moved nearly as rapidly as good ones, not because people necessarily liked them, but due to the fact that many of them were acquired virtually for free. The movement of so many discs had to have had some influence on the studios deciding to heavily support DVD. DVD might have had a much slower uptake if the on-line giveaways hadn't occurred.

Ahh.... Reel.com 40% off all preorders, plus you could use on-line coupons to save even more. How about 3 for $1 at 800.com in the early days. I also remember Troma.com had their films for $.25 one week. There have been a lot of BOGO sales so far, but not as good as what the .com boom brought us.
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post #249 of 262
1/18/08 at 11:28pm

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

Wow. I haven't heard Troma mentioned in a long time. I still have my copies of Bloodsucking Freaks and Surf Nazi's Must Die!

As for classics being released in HDM format, why? I think this might actually hurt the format. The quality would be basically that of a good SD transfer, since these are obviously not going to be remastered, and people might wonder why they spent so much just to have interactive menus.

You make a good point about DVD giveaways. I had forgotten, as I didn't really get that many for free. But it still illustrates that the marketing of both Blu Ray and HD DVD have been deplorable. Further, When I did my side by side comparisons of MI III, my wife said she couldn't see a difference and walked out of the room. Ultimately, it's not the enthusiasts you have to sell, it's the wives and the non-enthusiasts. But HD DVD and Blu Ray have both failed to sell even me, and I'm always looking for the next best thing.

John
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post #250 of 262
1/18/08 at 11:32pm

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich
Ahh.... Reel.com 40% off all preorders, plus you could use on-line coupons to save even more. How about 3 for $1 at 800.com in the early days. I also remember Troma.com had their films for $.25 one week. There have been a lot of BOGO sales so far, but not as good as what the .com boom brought us.

Unfortunately, I missed out on those types of sales. I tend to be a point-of-sale type person when it comes to movies. I mostly buy at B&M stores, as it bothers me to have to wait for 10 days to actually watch what I have purchased. That being said, I did buy a few films during Amazons last 1/2 price Blu sale. CE3K at 23.95 beats 40 bucks at any time or place. 2001: ASO and PAPRIKA were conspicuously absent from my local retailer and SURF'S UP was half what was being charged at the B&M. SU is one of those marginal titles I was talking about. I actually liked it better than SHREK 3, but at 36 bucks it was a no sale.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hermes
I think the dominant release list of action, sci-fi, horror, and fantasy films in HDM does cater to adolescent male, who is, in fact, probably more likely to have a PS3. There are really very few titles in either HD or BD I want to buy at this point. I have absolutely no interest in games. I am 55 years old and have standalone players for both HDM formats, but am becoming less and less enchanted with the medium. I started out with HD and have picked up most of the titles I want. I did pick up the BD Harry Potter Phoenix to test my BD player, but it's the only one I have. Older movies in general don't "show off" hi-def like some more modern, loud, multi-channel audio, 100 scene-cuts-a-minute film. I am more inclined these days to just pick up SD DVDs I want and watch them upconverted on my XA2. I am not excited about getting "American Gangster" or "The Invasion." What I am looking forward to is in March, getting "Taras Bulba" and "Solomon and Sheba"...which are in SD. There is very little variety of films in HDM unless you want to see the stuff I mentioned at the beginning. I think the studios better release some classics, whether they sell many or not, just get get a more widespread demographic involved in this thing, or it's going to go down the drain. How long has this talk about "Lawrence of Arabia" being released been going on? Release it, for god's sake, not another stupid SAW movie!

I think comparing what is available on a 10 year old format to what is available on a two year old format is unfair. I highly doubt that "Taras Bulba" and Solomon and Sheba" were available on DVD after only two years either. In fact, the very same complaints about lack of classics on HDM were also leveled at DVD during its early years. There was a constant litany of complaints about Warner sitting on their catalog. Classics in great numbers will only start to show up when a format is largely established and maturing. If people don't make the switch to HDM, effectively mainstreaming it, then classic films will be few and far between. Classics arrive after the install base reaches a critical mass, not before.
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post #251 of 262
1/18/08 at 11:45pm

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Dirk
As for classics being released in HDM format, why? I think this might actually hurt the format. The quality would be basically that of a good SD transfer, since these are obviously not going to be remastered, and people might wonder why they spent so much just to have interactive menus.

John

Well, I will have to disagree with you on this point. At this stage of the game studios know they have to appeal to a lot of film geeks. They have tried to pass off sub-standard product early in HDM's life cycle and they have caught holy hell for it. For the foreseeable future, when they release a classic it is going to be remastered and cleaned up within economic reason. CASABLANCA and FORBIDDEN PLANET were both cleaned up and remastered for their HD releases and it shows. FP looked particularly good. It looked nearly as good as any new film that has been released. Classic films can definitely benefit from a HD release if the release is done with proper concern for the source material.
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post #252 of 262
1/19/08 at 12:21am

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam Gregorich
Casablanca and Robin Hood sold fairly well for for "older" catalog titles. Keep in mind that Casablanca was available via the 5 free offer, and I don't know how many people took that as a choice (like I did). They both outsold newer catalog like Excaliber and Road Warrier, and all the other titles I mention below. Viva Las Vegas, Jailhouse Rock, Cowboys and Forbidden Planet all sold a small quantity. Rio Bravo, Viva Las Vegas, Jailhouse Rock sold about the same on both formats, BD just edged out HD DVD on Cowboys and Wild Bunch, HD DVD had over twice the number of copies sold for Dirty Dozen and Searchers. That's Entertainment hasn't been out for long, but the numbers don't look good so far.

Note: I have no idea what the expectations were for any of these titles. When I say something didn't sell well I'm looking at the number of sales; WB might actually be pleased as it may have beaten their sales estimates for all I know.
For ten years we've tried to get a studio to admit what is the magical number they look for in units sold for classic film release to be profitable to them and to this day they have never answered that question. Therefore, for argument's sake let's say the number is 100,000 units sold considering the current HDM market penetration to this point. If 5-6 of those titles you mentioned had reach that point like Casablanca, Robin Hood, Wild Bunch, Rio Bravo and That's Entertainment we would be seeing announcements of classic films all over the internet.

As Edwin stated, it really comes down to this simple statement.
If people want to see more classics on HDM then more people have to be willing to support HDM by buying in. Then they have to show the studios that it is worth releasing classics on HD, by actually purchasing the ones that have been released to date.


I try to avoid telling people how to spend their own money simply because it's none of my business. However, I will speak my mind to those classic film buffs who insist that they won't buy into HDM unless the studios start releasing such titles in significant numbers onto HDM. Even more than DVD, to release many of these classic films on HDM it's going to take a significant investment on the part of the studios due to QA issues and production costs. Therefore, the consumers in return need to do the same by making an investment by buying the hardware and the classic software currently available to them. Over the last ten years or so, I can't tell you how many SD DVD titles I bought that weren't among my favorite films, but I figure by doing so, it will help encourage the studios to keep releasing similar titles in the future, some of which might be among my favorite films.
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post #253 of 262
1/19/08 at 12:26am

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Dirk
As for classics being released in HDM format, why? I think this might actually hurt the format. The quality would be basically that of a good SD transfer, since these are obviously not going to be remastered, and people might wonder why they spent so much just to have interactive menus.


John
Like Edwin, I have to disagree with you because so far the several classic titles I do have in my HDM collection far exceeds the SD DVD versions by a long ways.




Crawdaddy
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post #254 of 262
1/19/08 at 12:40am

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Edwin-S



I think comparing what is available on a 10 year old format to what is available on a two year old format is unfair. I highly doubt that "Taras Bulba" and Solomon and Sheba" were available on DVD after only two years either. In fact, the very same complaints about lack of classics on HDM were also leveled at DVD during its early years. There was a constant litany of complaints about Warner sitting on their catalog. Classics in great numbers will only start to show up when a format is largely established and maturing. If people don't make the switch to HDM, effectively mainstreaming it, then classic films will be few and far between. Classics arrive after the install base reaches a critical mass, not before.
That is so true. I think some of us have forgotton what the studios were releasing during the 1997-1998 timeframe. Most of the titles were recent films made during 1990s or 1980s, with some classic films sprinkled in that were derived from prior LD releases. So years later, even those early classic film releases had to be double-dipped with later re-releases done correctly and some with their OAR and OAF. The release of classic films onto SD DVD didn't really take off in high numbers until 2000 when studios such as Warner, Fox, Paramount and Sony realized the gold mine they had in their hands. Even today, we have Paramount not releasing many of their classics to SD DVD because they must have some marketing data that supports them not doing so because of low units sold numbers. Again, if you want the product released then you have to buy the product. Studios are like any other company, they will sell almost any of their assets as long as it's profitable for them to do so.





Crawdaddy
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post #255 of 262
1/19/08 at 5:11am

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

I haven't followed this thread but my take on the thread topic is simple. No peace offering or special deals should be offered to HD DVD owners. What the Blu-ray companies need to do is offer the best hardware and software at the best prices. Spending many millions to bring HD DVD owners over with promos won't be money well spent, profit margins are slim as is and that would just have to be made up with higher prices. Anybody that liked HD DVD can certainly like Blu-ray. At the worst case, the Blu-ray software should be identical to any HD DVD software and any of the things that Blu-ray was missing should be complete and ready for consumption soon.

Let Toshiba enter the Blu-ray market and compete fiercely is what I would like to see.

Chris
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post #256 of 262
1/19/08 at 1:09pm

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Quote:
For ten years we've tried to get a studio to admit what is the magical number they look for in units sold for classic film release to be profitable to them and to this day they have never answered that question. Therefore, for argument's sake let's say the number is 100,000 units sold considering the current HDM market penetration to this point. If 5-6 of those titles you mentioned had reach that point like Casablanca, Robin Hood, Wild Bunch, Rio Bravo and That's Entertainment we would be seeing announcements of classic films all over the internet.

I know the 100,000 number is hypothetical, but to put things in perspective the best selling title in that group I listed hit 6% of that, the worst .2% HDM has a long way to go before we see more classics. Maybe popular titles like the Wizard of Oz in late 2008, and maybe Lawrence of Arabia (since it has been promised forever, but I doubt much more than that. Even bigger catalog titles like CE3K managed to just hit 11% of that number last year. All hypothetical of course....
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post #257 of 262
1/19/08 at 2:34pm
Thread Starter 

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Quote:
Classic titles haven't sold well because of a number of reasons that has nothing to do with the PS3 demographic dominating Blu-ray sales so let's cease with the generalizations for a minute and talk about specifics as to why few classic films are few and far between on HDM. First off, there is a misconception that HDM won't be beneficial to classic films especially black and white films, movies lacking multi-channel audio and films in academy ratio. I can't tell you how many people believe that misconception which probably affects the low sales number for classic films on HDM for both formats not just Blu-ray. Secondly, the market penetration is just not there yet to support greater sales of classic films on HDM. Using this forum as an example, too many classic film buffs on HTF want the studios to release classic films onto HDM, but yet won't buy the players and the current classic software released on HDM. If that doesn't happen then what is going to tell the studios that there is a market for classic films on HDM. If you want the studios to release such films onto HDM then they have to be encourage to release more by buying enough of the classic films already released on HDM to get the studios to take notice that there is a market. It's really a catch-22 situation.

Agreed.
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post #258 of 262
1/19/08 at 3:00pm

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

Edwin and Robert. I see your point and I do believe it represents the majority view. As such, this is probably what needs to happen. For me, I would have to see HDM content available at prices equivalent to DVD before I would even consider replacing any titles.

John
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post #259 of 262
1/19/08 at 3:30pm

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Quote:
For me, I would have to see HDM content available at prices equivalent to DVD before I would even consider replacing any titles.
FWIW, I'm a ~17-year veteran of buying and selling used CDs. Have been doing the same with DVDs for ~6 years. It accelerated with the advent of Amazon Marketplace about three years ago.

The slow decline in value paid for especially deep catalog used CD and DVD titles has increased in the past couple of years. Unfortunately, from my perspective, what will happen while you're waiting for HDM list pricing to match SD DVD is that the market for used SD DVD will continue to flatten, lessening your ability to make a little bit of coin from selling used SD DVDs to help "finance" upgrades to HDM.

This is one of the reasons I'm aggressively BOGOing HDM and selling SD DVDs to Wherehouse.com, Amoeba and DVDPlanet right now.
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post #260 of 262
1/20/08 at 1:22pm

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Random point of information/interesting history, not meant to intimate that the situation then was analogous to now:

Culling my CD/DVD clubs file, I came across a letter Columbia House sent to its laserdisc club members in February 2000: they offered LD club members the opportunity to get the Philips/Magnavox 825 DVD player and 5 "free" DVDs for $199.

At the time, Columbia House was owned by (then) AOL Time Warner and Sony.
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post #261 of 262
1/20/08 at 3:14pm

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Bl

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Hermes
+1

+ Another

Probably the last time we all agreed was before the 'war' when it made sense that they should have kept talking till there was only 1 format good to go. All this 'SD isnt really good enough ' and ' Hd-Dvd must die and die quickly for the greater good ' patronising BS just doesn't ring true to me .

I'm definitely rethinking my disposable income . The studios seem cool for the next couple of years what with the large gift cheques they've been cutting each other and I can always reacquaint myself with my Hitchcocks and Film Noirs
to pass time .

Over at avs a guy suggested we could do with a new hobby and offered this as asuggestion :

Pictures of Pennies

At least there's no major investment in equipment required and Drm isnt an issue

Do or do not , there is no trying

~M~
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post #262 of 262
1/21/08 at 11:53am

Re: Should WB and the BDA give HD DVD owners a "peace offering" to welcome them to Blu?

Yeah, it's indeed a catch-22 problem. And as Edwin (and Adam) mentioned, there's no dot.com boom (and bust!) to help HDM this time around. I definitely remember collecting lots of DVDs through the various dot.com offers. And remember how much Reel.com cost Hollywood Video that one year before Reel.com's online sales business got sold to Buy.com?

Anyway, at this point, I plan to help out a little w/ the classic title releases even though I'm not a classic film buff. I'll probably go pick up the major classics as they get released on BD, eg. Casablanca, Adventures of Robin Hood, Lawrence of Arabia, etc., and play them on my PS3. If classic film buffs are not interested, then so be it. We can only do so much to encourage them to jump in...

_Man_
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