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A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

post #1 of 50
1/6/08 at 11:54am
Thread Starter 
This commentary has been updated, based upon new information at of 6/08.

One of last year's great theatrical pleasures was Guillermo del Toro's Pan's Labyrinth released by New Line.

Released just after Christmas in both high definition flavors, the film has arrived in high quality.

One interesting attribute of the production is the manipulation of black levels, which in many scenes have been lifted quite dramatically to avoid any semblance of a real black. In other scenes, they play quite normally.

This is an acceptable high definition version of the film when viewed on monitors not over 50",
as above that size DNR and softening of the image becomes noticeable.

For those who have not experienced it on screen, a rental in high def is a wonderful way to go, until this is re-mastered without the loss of resolution.

My only advice is to stay away from reviews and commentaries regarding content, so as not to spoil the dream-like qualities of this work. And please, if at all possible, view in Spanish with English sub-titles.

Recommended, with caveats.

RAH
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

Pan's Labyrinth [Blu-ray]
Pan's Labyrinth [HD DVD]
post #2 of 50
1/6/08 at 12:39pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

I was very pleased with the Blu-ray Disc when I watched it last week. I almost did not buy this disc, but it seems that Guillermo del Toro's movies always require a subsequent viewing for me to truly appreciate them. This film is a real masterpiece.
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post #3 of 50
1/6/08 at 3:56pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

Agreed RAH and Paul. What a beautiful film. One that leaves you feeling quite changed as a result.
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post #4 of 50
1/6/08 at 4:48pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

I have yet to see this in HD. But I saw the film twice in theaters -- a friday night, and then the next day. I couldn't stop thinking about it.

Definitely picking this one up.
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post #5 of 50
1/6/08 at 6:42pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

I want to add a caution to potential viewers of this film: it's disturbingly violent in places; this caught me off guard and left me shaken afterwards. If you're put off by personal, explicit violence, you might give this one a second thought.

That noted, this is a strong, novel film.
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post #6 of 50
1/7/08 at 1:24am

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

I still don't know how to rate this movie. Yes, it is violent in some areas.
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post #7 of 50
1/7/08 at 4:06am

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

Great film. Unfortunately New Line saw it fit to apply DNR to the US version. If you like natural film grain and dislike the smoothed over look you are better served with the UK BD or the German DB (no English subtitles on that one, but DTS Spanish).
Pans Labyrinth Pics & Impressions - Page 6 - AVS Forum
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post #8 of 50
1/7/08 at 5:02am

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

A classic and yes it is violent. Shocking until one realizes this is a non-Hollywood fairytale.

The story takes place in violent times where when things at their worst, people are at their best. A beautiful and moving film.

I've watched my SD version several times and can't wait for my HD disc to arrive.

BTW the extras are great too!
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post #9 of 50
1/7/08 at 5:41am

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michel_Hafner
Great film. Unfortunately New Line saw it fit to apply DNR to the US version. If you like natural film grain and dislike the smoothed over look you are better served with the UK BD or the German DB (no English subtitles on that one, but DTS Spanish).
Pans Labyrinth Pics & Impressions - Page 6 - AVS Forum
Yeah, I heard about the complaints beforehand, but I still thought the Region 1 release was excellent.
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post #10 of 50
1/7/08 at 12:01pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

This is one of those movies that I recognize as an excellent piece of work but just don't feel much urge to watch a second time. I found it very depressing.

I'm generally a big fan of Del Toro.
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post #11 of 50
1/8/08 at 4:50am

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Yeah, I heard about the complaints beforehand, but I still thought the Region 1 release was excellent.
I have not seen the US version. But the stills tell me at least some shots must have suffered from DNR. I know the German BD which has also DNR in a few shots, but is overall free of the problem and looks very good.
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post #12 of 50
1/8/08 at 9:44am

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

I watched this one last night. As someone who saw the film in the theater multiple times, I was slightly bummed about the lack of grain on the BD. In the theater, the grain added a lot of texture to the visuals and contributed to the film's otherworldly quality, especially in the blue-tinted night scenes where the moonlight is allowed to bloom ever so slightly. At times, this encode makes the film look like it was shot on HD video rather than 35mm, and it detracts a bit from the feel of the film I experienced in the theater.

At the same time, the BD of Pan's Labyrinth is rich in preserving the film's color and detail; it looks a million times better than the murky, washed-out DVD. I just wish HD compressionists would resist the temptation to make everything look as smooth as HD sports in order to appease tech fanboys.
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post #13 of 50
1/8/08 at 10:13am

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

Yes, a shockingly violent film. Hopefully like Kubrick's A Clockwork Orange at some future date I can acknowledge the masterpiece in filmmaking it is and get past the violence, but right now I just can't see myself watching the movie again so soon.
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post #14 of 50
6/9/08 at 1:06pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

In all the reading I've done on the Patton BD Pan's Labyrinth came up several times as suffering a similar fate. We watched PL yesterday. I haven't seen the Patton BD yet. I'll be renting Patton asap but in the meantime I guess I'm wondering how these 2 compare.

I thought PL looked quite good. There wasn't much grain, excpet for some fx shots, but it didn't look overly-processed, or fake, or waxy (which seems to be the popular word at present).

As to the movie itself.... there was much to like but mixing the fantastical fairy tale element with brutal violence was quite off-putting. I think my wife was actually kinda pissed off. Still processing.
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post #15 of 50
6/9/08 at 1:23pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

As someone who hasn't been shy when it comes to complaints about DNR, and who also saw Pan's Labyrinth in a theater, I have to say that the level of noise reduction on the U.S. Blu-ray didn't particularly trouble me. Yes, none or less would have been preferable, but this didn't strike me as a situation where the film experience was drastically altered by DNR. (I realize we all have our own personal thresholds.)

As for the violence, the original Grimm's Fairy Tales were pretty violent stuff. I saw this film as getting back to the essence of what fairy tales are about: one way to make sense, from a child's perspective, of a world that is filled with huge, uncontrollable and frequently malevolent forces. What's so striking about Del Toro's achievement is the ease with which he's able to glide between the fairy tale world and the real one.

M.
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post #16 of 50
6/9/08 at 2:36pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Reuben
As someone who hasn't been shy when it comes to complaints about DNR, and who also saw Pan's Labyrinth in a theater, I have to say that the level of noise reduction on the U.S. Blu-ray didn't particularly trouble me. Yes, none or less would have been preferable, but this didn't strike me as a situation where the film experience was drastically altered by DNR. (I realize we all have our own personal thresholds.)

Fortunately, we have a choice in the matter for this particular film as the Optimum Home Video UK BD release of Pan's Labyrinth does not have DNR and is region free to boot. Although it is open-matte.

As you astutely point out, we all have our own personal thresholds. And while the domestic release is certainly better than some other BDs out there, I consider this film to be a masterpiece and must own the best version possible.
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post #17 of 50
6/9/08 at 3:07pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul Arnette
Fortunately, we have a choice in the matter for this particular film as the Optimum Home Video UK BD release of Pan's Labyrinth does not have DNR and is region free to boot. Although it is open-matte.

As you astutely point out, we all have our own personal thresholds. And while the domestic release is certainly better than some other BDs out there, I consider this film to be a masterpiece and must own the best version possible.
Owning an open-matte presentation is not the best version in my opinion while the US release does close enough justice to how the film look to me in the movie theater.
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post #18 of 50
6/9/08 at 3:10pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

Robert,

isn't the film 1.85:1? Are you talking about opening the matte up to 1.78:1?

Paul,

I wasn't aware that there was a UK BD along with the UK HD DVD. I'll be placing my order!
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post #19 of 50
6/9/08 at 3:18pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Robert,

isn't the film 1.85:1? Are you talking about opening the matte up to 1.78:1?

Paul,

I wasn't aware that there was a UK BD along with the UK HD DVD. I'll be placing my order!
It's still not being shown as the filmmaker intended which is my point. Also, you're paying almost twice the cost of the US BRD.
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post #20 of 50
6/9/08 at 3:51pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

How one compares opening up a matte by a few scan lines versus filtering out a visible layer of detail from an entire film is a subjective issue, which was why I asked for clarification.

Personally, in this case, I view the loss of detail as more destructive to the intended art.
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post #21 of 50
6/9/08 at 4:04pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
How one compares opening up a matte by a few scan lines versus filtering out a visible layer of detail from an entire film is a subjective issue, which was why I asked for clarification.

Personally, in this case, I view the loss of detail as more destructive to the intended art.
Have you seen the US Blu-ray and if so how much detail you think you have lost? Anyhow, compromises have to be made in either case, but it's not worth twice the money to me in order to buy into the UK choice.
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post #22 of 50
6/9/08 at 4:39pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

IF the Patton BD is no worse with respect to DNR than the US version of Pan's Labyrinth (I saw it as an HD DVD rental a few weeks back), then I think that I, personally, could live with the Patton BD. I agree that everyone has his own threshold for processing of PQ (I am far more "nitpicky" about audio than about video, but I know there are others who are the reverse--and those who are equally nitpicky...well, I suggest therapy j/k) but mine, with my current gear, is comfortable with the way Pan's looked in its US release in HD. That it could be better, I have no doubt (same goes for just about every title in my collection, if we want to be technical about it) and I would very much like to see releases be as good as they can be (within reasonable limits) but, at the risk of a few brickbats, I'm prepared to live with "significantly better" than SD DVD, even if there are times when it's not "as good as it can be".

As for the movie, I really liked Pan's a lot. The point about the original fairy tales made above is quite correct--they were not meant to be Disney puff pieces. I have a collection of English fairy tales (the originals, as far back as the written versions can be traced) and they are not "puff pieces". The original Three Bears, for example, doesn't have Goldilocks, but rather a nasty old woman who dies from a fall out the second story window. The Three Pigs trap the wolf in the cooking pot in the brick house's fireplace, boil him alive and eat him for dinner. Etc. Pan's, IMO, was a brave recounting of a fairy tale in the manner in which they were originally conceived--as a life lesson for adults. This will definitely be added to my collection (likely in Blu as I'd like to take advantage of the newer audio codec that my A2 does not allow for with the HD DVD--though the core audio was impressive in its own right).
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post #23 of 50
6/9/08 at 5:09pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Crawford
Have you seen the US Blu-ray and if so how much detail you think you have lost? Anyhow, compromises have to be made in either case, but it's not worth twice the money to me in order to buy into the UK choice.

Sounds like a good way to go.

How did that saying go? You live to fight another day? At 1/2 the price, you pick your poison and save the rest for another day.

Personally, I too did not find the DNR (and EE) applied here to be too objectionable. Yeah, I can see the diff in the screen caps (and did so *before* I bought in), but I didn't find it that obvious in practice w/ the images in motion and w/out a side-by-side comparison to go w/ that either.

For myself, I actually find artifacts like 3:2 pulldown judder to be a fair bit more noticeable and distracting than the amount of DNR+EE applied in this case. Of course, 3:2 pulldown judder is only noticeable to me in a very few shots here and there in various films (outside of rolling credits).

OTOH, maybe the likely harder/edgier look (due to EE) will be more apparent on a fixed pixel display, particularly a direct-view one. I'm still using a 1080i CRT RPTV right now...

_Man_
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post #24 of 50
6/9/08 at 5:22pm
Thread Starter 

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

The Patton Blu and Pan Blu cannot be adequately compared.

They are two totally different beasts.

The loss of high frequency detail on Patton is probably equivalent to 50% of that of Pan, which would make Pan unviewable.
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post #25 of 50
6/9/08 at 6:23pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

Quote:
Have you seen the US Blu-ray and if so how much detail you think you have lost?

I own the US BD, and while on its own it looks "good", it definitely lacks some of the texture from the 35mm theatrical projection that I saw (twice). Also, at AVS some folks did some 1080p screen-grabs from the US BD and the UK version without any processing... and it was pretty obvious just how much detail is being lost in the US version especially in textures of clothing and skin. The faces on the US version looked a little "smoothed over" in comparison.

I don't think that the DNR on Pan is as destructive as what we see on Patton (juding by the screen caps), but since Pan is one of my favorite all-time films, I'd like to have a full-res 1080p copy in my library (even if it costs more to import).
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post #26 of 50
6/9/08 at 7:25pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Harris
The Patton Blu and Pan Blu cannot be adequately compared.

They are two totally different beasts.

The loss of high frequency detail on Patton is probably equivalent to 50% of that of Pan, which would make Pan unviewable.
Forgive the perhaps silly question, but I presume this is the case owing to the difference between 65mm and 35mm film sizes?

In any event, even if my understanding of the technical reasons is not correct, I appreciate your response. Essentially, the proportionate "degradation" (for lack of a better term) is higher on Patton than on Pan's, if I understand correctly. Thus the greater outcry over the Patton BD.
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post #27 of 50
6/9/08 at 8:06pm
Thread Starter 

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

Pan appears to have been de-grained with a light hand and a bit of elegance, and without removing all of the high frequency.

Patton was grain-raped, and the high frequency lopped off.

But it is now prettier, and almost as good a film as it was previously.
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post #28 of 50
6/9/08 at 8:57pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
Paul,

I wasn't aware that there was a UK BD along with the UK HD DVD. I'll be placing my order!

David, no problem that's what we're here for afterall to learn and share information about home theater. I hope you enjoy it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
How one compares opening up a matte by a few scan lines versus filtering out a visible layer of detail from an entire film is a subjective issue, which was why I asked for clarification.

Yes, there is that trade-off. Myself, I'd rather see a few more scan lines than the director intended, but see the remainder of them as intended rather than seeing only the ones intended as they weren't intended to be seen.

Edited to add:

Oh, the other trade-off is in terms of sound as the Optimum Home Entertainment release only as a lossy DD 5.1 track. So, I definitely understand why some are content to stay with the domestic release.
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post #29 of 50
6/9/08 at 9:59pm

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaViD Boulet
... but since Pan is one of my favorite all-time films, I'd like to have a full-res 1080p copy in my library (even if it costs more to import).
I can understand, and even applaud that sentiment. I like this movie a lot, but will make do with the domestic version for the time being. In this case, fans like you are fortunate that an alternative exists.
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post #30 of 50
6/10/08 at 6:04am

Re: A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD

With all due respect to Mr. Harris, I have the UK release and compared it to the U.S. release on a 73 inch monitor. The differences are striking and shocking. The U.S. release is pure trash, with massive amounts of detail removed. It's especially jarring with faces. Skin looks like it's been air brushed in the same way women are air brushed in Playboy.

The 1.78:1 image has a tad bit more picture information at the top and bottom. No cropping.

There are links out there with comparisons that will shick you, but I cannot find them right now.
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Pan's Labyrinth [Blu-ray]
Pan's Labyrinth [HD DVD]
Home Theater Forum › Home Theater Forum › Blu-ray, DVD, Streaming Video and Digital Downloads › Blu-ray › A Few Words About By Robert Harris › A few words about...™ Pan's Labyrinth -- in HD & BD